And they wonder why it's difficult to recruit young members.....

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Jawgap wrote: »

Yeah and it actually makes sense!

Still feeling a bit shellshocked that someone would have called me out like that - I know he was right and has been proven to be right, but I'd like to think if next time I roll into the club and someone was doing the same as I was no one would bat an eyelid. I know I certainly wouldn't.

I think we have established, beyond any reasonable doubt, that this guy is a pr1ck. I'd hope any nice, decent, normal person would deal with the situation in an entirely different way. A quiet word would have sufficed. You weren't gaining any advantage, you were doing it in good faith, and it is not like when you are on te golf course where you do not have the option of waiving a rule that you know has been broken.

NFH

That's insane behavior by your man.

I love golf but I 100% see why people who don't play it think it's an elitist sport only played by d**kheads. I'm 30 now but the amount of abuse I remember getting when starting out playing in my teens from random old farts on the course, like "did ye pay ye're green fees boys", "where'd ye get those driving range balls lads", "are those proper golf shoes". Older people should be encouraging the youth of tomorrow and beginners to get involved in golf, but no, the amount of people I've met at golf clubs that are clearly there for social status and exclusivity etc is ridiculous. I know a lot of courses and clubs that do great things to encourage kids and beginners to play the game but its sickening the amount of bad spirited crap like the OP had to put up with that I've experienced playing golf.

Could you just have said to him "no, I'm sorry you must be mistaken, I didn't hit any ball from there" and just walk off? Like would it not just be your word against his?

Jawgap

NFH wrote: »

That's insane behavior by your man.

I love golf but I 100% see why people who don't play it think it's an elitist sport only played by d**kheads. I'm 30 now but the amount of abuse I remember getting when starting out playing in my teens from random old farts on the course, like "did ye pay ye're green fees boys", "where'd ye get those driving range balls lads", "are those proper golf shoes". Older people should be encouraging the youth of tomorrow and beginners to get involved in golf, but no, the amount of people I've met at golf clubs that are clearly there for social status and exclusivity etc is ridiculous. I know a lot of courses and clubs that do great things to encourage kids and beginners to play the game but its sickening the amount of bad spirited crap like the OP had to put up with that I've experienced playing golf.

Could you just have said to him "no, I'm sorry you must be mistaken, I didn't hit any ball from there" and just walk off? Like would it not just be your word against his?

The really irritating thing about the whole palaver was that my son was there. He's a handy enough player, but he formed the view that golf is a bit of an old fart's game so he really hasn't played anyway seriously for a few years (preferring to concentrate on rugby). I'd finally convinced him to play a bit more and was delighted to have got him to engage a bit more because I'd like to have something we can both do.....

......then along comes yer man and confirms everything my son thinks about golf

The guy also watched me and saw me hit a few shots from the course to the practice green before saying anything - when he could have said something as I was addressing the ball - so my 'deniability' window had closed!

Anyway, even if I could've denied it, I'd like to think I wouldn't as one of the key attractions of the game, for me anyway, is the emphasis it places on the player to police themselves and play with integrity.

finally, I happened to be back at my old club for a social game last week with some mates from there and told them the story. Immediately one of them said "Does that mean you're coming back?" - now that's a thought that's been rattling around for the last few days

Tiger Mcilroy

To be fair he was technically right on the rule but the way it was handled is obviously wrong and in the long run these people are detrimental to their own clubs.

As a result of his attitude 3 lads walked away from the course with a bad feeling and this impacts on future revenue, i would imagine you would have called in for a coffee/burger after the round and be thinking about the next time you could get out again but this guy has ensured that you will think long and hard about spending money or bring groups back.

I have seen first hand that the "committe member" mentality in clubs can cause rot from the inside out and guys like him should be prevented from dealing with issues as they just turn people and the money they spend away so he can be self righteous.

If the captain etc was worth their salt they would have a word with you to smooth things over but then its always the same and nobody wants to challenge the guys that are in reality the reason clubs struggle.

Jawgap

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

To be fair he was technically right on the rule but the way it was handled is obviously wrong and in the long run these people are detrimental to their own clubs.

As a result of his attitude 3 lads walked away from the course with a bad feeling and this impacts on future revenue, i would imagine you would have called in for a coffee/burger after the round and be thinking about the next time you could get out again but this guy has ensured that you will think long and hard about spending money or bring groups back.

I have seen first hand that the "committe member" mentality in clubs can cause rot from the inside out and guys like him should be prevented from dealing with issues as they just turn people and the money they spend away so he can be self righteous.

If the captain etc was worth their salt they would have a word with you to smooth things over but then its always the same and nobody wants to challenge the guys that are in reality the reason clubs struggle.

I'd agree that he was right - technically. And actually my first reaction ran to that, as I knew practicing on the course was a DQ, and when he pointed out where I was standing I realised I was on the course. My questioning really related to the applicability of the exception - but I'm not disputing that Barry's reading of it is correct, and is logically sound.

It was my home course so I'll be back at some point - although at the moment I don't much feel like playing competitions there. My Dad was quite philosophical about it, but as you say you'd question if Mr Committee Man did the game any favours given all his actions did was encourage one young player to believe the game was not really for him.

I would certainly be reluctant to invite people to play at the club for fear something like that would happen to a guest of mine, and you can imagine what an impact such an approach might have on someone quiet new to the game.

I did entertain notions of 'returning' to my previous club, purely on the basis that nothing like this ever happened to me there, but I guess there's these sorts of personalities in all clubs, I just never ran in to them in full 'officiousness' mode. In that situation the club would be out a membership, but I doubt there'd be much problem recruiting new members.

It really knocked one or two spots off what was a good summer of golf for me.

jungleman

OP, did the club ever reply to that email you sent them? Did they mention anything about the guys behaviour?

Jawgap

Yes & No......

Jawgap wrote: »

So an update.....

I wrote to the Hon Sec highlighting the 7b exception



I got a response back this morning saying the disqualification still stood as in the view of the Men's Committee the area I was practicing from was regarded as "integral part of the course and not deemed to be adjacent the first tee."

Personally, I would have thought that a reasonable reading of the exception creates two locations where one can practice chipping or putting - (1) near the first tee and (2) near any practice area.

FixdePitchmark

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd agree that he was right - technically. And actually my first reaction ran to that, as I knew practicing on the course was a DQ, and when he pointed out where I was standing I realised I was on the course. My questioning really related to the applicability of the exception - but I'm not disputing that Barry's reading of it is correct, and is logically sound.

It was my home course so I'll be back at some point - although at the moment I don't much feel like playing competitions there. My Dad was quite philosophical about it, but as you say you'd question if Mr Committee Man did the game any favours given all his actions did was encourage one young player to believe the game was not really for him.

I would certainly be reluctant to invite people to play at the club for fear something like that would happen to a guest of mine, and you can imagine what an impact such an approach might have on someone quiet new to the game.

I did entertain notions of 'returning' to my previous club, purely on the basis that nothing like this ever happened to me there, but I guess there's these sorts of personalities in all clubs, I just never ran in to them in full 'officiousness' mode. In that situation the club would be out a membership, but I doubt there'd be much problem recruiting new members.

It really knocked one or two spots off what was a good summer of golf for me.

I do understand you grievance etc.

But - if you were to run away from a club for every little instance like this - some under , others out of your control - nobody would be in any club.

You sort of give in to them.

Being reluctant to inviting people to your club on the basis of this - is over the top.

Whilst your man was an arse, he has the reality of being technically right - so you take it on the chin and move on.

Not saying you have , but others have gone on as if it like a from of cold war now.

Is that not all a bit handbags.

Your man will get his comeuppance at some stage - or if a good club , just blanked.

Most of these guys are miserable in reality - this is their only existence.

I'd say , don't lower yourself.

I'd be thinking like your dad - there are honestly way better things to be getting on with.

Jawgap

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I do understand you grievance etc.

But - if you were to run away from a club for every little instance like this - some under , others out of your control - nobody would be in any club.

You sort of give in to them.

Being reluctant to inviting people to your club on the basis of this - is over the top.

Whilst your man was an arse, he has the reality of being technically right - so you take it on the chin and move on.

Not saying you have , but others have gone on as if it like a from of cold war now.

Is that not all a bit handbags.

Your man will get his comeuppance at some stage - or if a good club , just blanked.

Most of these guys are miserable in reality - this is their only existence.

I'd say , don't lower yourself.

I'd be thinking like your dad - there are honestly way better things to be getting on with.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I reckon the reason I'm so irked at it is because in all the years I played rugby, football and golf, this is the first time I ever got a 'red' card in any sport. To my mind, throwing someone out of a game is done for one of two reasons - dangerous play / violent behaviour, or cheating.

alxmorgan

I think one thing this incident does highlight is one of the downsides of the way golf rules are (and to be fair need to be) interpreted.

I can't for a second imagine that this rule was meant for someone doing what you did. It is to stop players from playing a course in advance of a competition to discover green speeds, tee positions, conditions etc etc and therefore getting an advantage on the field.

So while you broke the rule, I don't believe you broke the "spirit" of the rule. Akin to the letter of the law versus its spirit.
Like in soccer a handball requires intent (in most cases). But then the presence of a referee means interpretation is possible whereby golf is mostly self-policing so I guess cannot have this quality.

FixdePitchmark

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you but I reckon the reason I'm so irked at it is because in all the years I played rugby, football and golf, this is the first time I ever got a 'red' card in any sport. To my mind, throwing someone out of a game is done for one of two reasons - dangerous play / violent behaviour, or cheating.

But the rules of golf are a bastard - we know that , we love it and hate it.

If you didn't have a rule like this - (I've seen what people get up to ) - you would have some "head case", hitting a 6 iron from the middle of the 6th to a putting green. Not even joking there.

Yes - you were unlucky - the markings sounded poor.

But in life you learn hard sometimes - sometimes it is an arse with the message.

To an outsider Rugby has a code and a set of rules that look daft.
There is typically some reason for them.

It was very very harsh - you were very very unlucky - it was totally wrong the way the guy talked to you - but..................

Don't let him define you or your life.

Move on - enjoy the game , don't hit from there again - improve markings . People will be asking about your man.

Don't worry he is marked in other ways. Not just at the golf course.

I held a grudge like that over my incident when I was younger - It had a bigger impact on me - he won.
But I wish I could talk to my young self again.................

Montgolfier

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I do understand you grievance etc.

But - if you were to run away from a club for every little instance like this - some under , others out of your control - nobody would be in any club.

You sort of give in to them.

Being reluctant to inviting people to your club on the basis of this - is over the top.

Whilst your man was an arse, he has the reality of being technically right - so you take it on the chin and move on.

Not saying you have , but others have gone on as if it like a from of cold war now.

Is that not all a bit handbags.

Your man will get his comeuppance at some stage - or if a good club , just blanked.

Most of these guys are miserable in reality - this is their only existence.

I'd say , don't lower yourself.

I'd be thinking like your dad - there are honestly way better things to be getting on with.

I'm inclined to agree, I learned most golf rules by being pulled up on my error. Sure I was peed off but I never forgot either.
If your determined not to make a similar mistake and get caught like that again do something about it (turn this negative into a motivational tool).
Do a rules course RANDA do an online course with a level 1 certificate it's very good. You can do level 2 over a weekend in carlton house if you wish to continue. Knowledge is power.

Seve OB

WOW. Shocking carry on. I would have said you seemed to be hard done by, not only by the merchant banker, but also by the get out clause in the rules, but Barry is good, so you have go by his decision.

However, IMO the club should have addressed the situation better. You were clearly not practising on the course, but rather practising on the practice area, and in an unfortunate bounce of a dropped ball, you hit it back to the practice area rather than picking it up.

You paid your entry for the comp, plus presumably green fees for your guests. IMO you should have either not paid, or continued to play, but that's in the past now. They should at the very least allow you credit for this.

I'd be having a word with the powers in the club (face to face - informal). Explain the bitter feeling and how your son was really looking forward to playing and joining the club up to that point and now he has no interest. Also mention the shock and disgust from everybody you tell about the incident and that is doesn't exactly shed a good light on the club and makes it not such an inviting place for guests and new members. Not saying you should move either, but also mention that you need to re-consider your position and that moving club is a very feasible option.

Jawgap

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But the rules of golf are a bastard - we know that , we love it and hate it.

If you didn't have a rule like this - (I've seen what people get up to ) - you would have some "head case", hitting a 6 iron from the middle of the 6th to a putting green. Not even joking there.

Yes - you were unlucky - the markings sounded poor.

But in life you learn hard sometimes - sometimes it is an arse with the message.

To an outsider Rugby has a code and a set of rules that look daft.
There is typically some reason for them.

It was very very harsh - you were very very unlucky - it was totally wrong the way the guy talked to you - but..................

Don't let him define you or your life.

Move on - enjoy the game , don't hit from there again - improve markings . People will be asking about your man.

Don't worry he is marked in other ways. Not just at the golf course.

I held a grudge like that over my incident when I was younger - It had a bigger impact on me - he won.
But I wish I could talk to my young self again.................

.......which brings things neatly back to where I started

The rule is undoubtedly necessary and the exception is pragmatic.

......what's really needed is some concept of 'materiality' to be introduced into how the rules are interpreted and enforced.

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd agree 100%.

It set me thinking afterwards. I referee rugby (and previously refereed soccer) and a lot of time at referee training, updates and meetings is spent discussing 'materiality' and 'contextual judgement' which, to be honest, is just jargon for common sense. Simply put, an offence is not material if it does not impact the game - or it only becomes material when it impacts the game.

I'd suggest it's the principle of materiality should be imported into golf and the interpretation of certain rules - if it did exist I'd have happily played today, submitted my card and taken my case to the committee - although I suspect the more officious players who revel in the triviality of the rules would be undone by the adoption of such a principle and so the issue would not have crystallised.

Saying that, some might say I gained an advantage by hitting a practice chip from outside the practice area, and therefore benefited from being able to hit a longer shot (by about 1.5m) than otherwise would have been the case if I'd confined myself to the practice area.

My response would be 'do you really think a single long chip is going to have that much of an impact on a mid-handicapper's game on a Sunday morning?"

Anyway, me being me I'll brood over it for a while longer before I get to the 'ah feck it stage' and just go back out and enjoy the course and the unseasonably good weather.

Trojan

I've never played golf, but it's on the list of things to try out as I get older and have to retire from playing rugby.

If the OP's incident happened to me I'd be put off the sport in a major way. Certainly be looking for a more relaxed club. I understand he's completely in the wrong according to the letter of the law.

I'd also probably be kicked out of the club for what I expect my response would be to the guy (fair play to OP for not losing the cool). Could you have just played on through the competition despite the DQ?

But the more I think about it, I think I'm not cut out for this sport, which I guess is the point of the post

mike12

I don't understand why you didn't play your round either way if you had already paid.
Can understand stand why u were upset but not playing and draging your dad and son off the course may have been a bit of an over reaction.
He had let u off and you won the comp he
Would have been in the wrong.
If he had waived the rule then he would have been disqualified as well.

HighLine

Trojan wrote: »

But the more I think about it, I think I'm not cut out for this sport, which I guess is the point of the post

I wouldn't let this isolated story put you off. I tend to find that lads who are sporty tend to pick golf up fairly quickly and excel and soon they are hooked.

Yeah there are a lot of silly rules but you will learn them as you go along, same as you do in most sports. And as for the bellend who called up the OP... thankfully lads like him are very rare.

callaway92

When I was a teenager if this happened I would've told the guy to fúck off.

As a man currently in my 20s, if this happened I would also tell the guy to fúck off.

NFH

I dunno, common sense would rule my head over 'rules are rules' thoughts there I think.

Even if I did realise after it was pointed out to me that I was a foot out of bounds, I wouldn't care, I would know myself I'm not cheating etc.

I'd like to think my response would have been "will ya stop your nonsense" and just walk back to the official chipping area (that is of course if I knew he was the only one who saw me)

I would have ignored that ****** and just let him do what he wants.

If he went and got a captain etc, I would just deny it and he would have more than likely suffered some embarrassment from following up on something so trivial.

It's worrying how I find I'm meeting more and more people like this with zero cop-on.

Jawgap

Trojan wrote: »

I've never played golf, but it's on the list of things to try out as I get older and have to retire from playing rugby.

If the OP's incident happened to me I'd be put off the sport in a major way. Certainly be looking for a more relaxed club. I understand he's completely in the wrong according to the letter of the law.

I'd also probably be kicked out of the club for what I expect my response would be to the guy (fair play to OP for not losing the cool). Could you have just played on through the competition despite the DQ?

But the more I think about it, I think I'm not cut out for this sport, which I guess is the point of the post

To put it in context, I've been a member of three clubs, played - probably - thousands of rounds and this is probably the first time I came up against a fully paid up member of the b0llix brigade:D

I knew enough about the rules to know he was right - it was more the shock that someone would be that petty minded to notice then act to have a player DQ'ed. I'd maintain that 95% of players wouldn't have bothered and of the remaining 5%, 4.99999999999% would have had a quiet informal word. In rugby terms, it would be like me going out to ref a game then sending off or binning a player for a knock-on.

As to why didn't I play? Well a lot of the game is obviously in the head, and my head was wrecked - it would've also meant playing in the group behind bollicky Bill and I just didn't fancy it at that stage.

Dr_Colossus

An interesting question arising from that pathetic individuals actions is what about courses with more than 18 holes?
Out of bounds habitually separate any practice area from the course but I don't think I've ever noticed out of bounds defining the competition course from any reamining holes. For example the competition could be played on the Red and Blue nine so does that mean any shot struck from the non competiton Yellow nine yields immediate disqualification?
It would appear from the rules that it would even though you're not playing or practicing "the course" as played in the competition. That is, if a spare nine holes or more is not deemed out of bounds to the competition course then it's technically in play and thus part of the course and part of the same can of worms.

Myksyk

I'm not convinced he was correct in the first instance. The exception to the relevant rule says the player is permitted to practice putting and chipping ON or NEAR any practice green or the first teeing ground. This suggests that the fact that the ball was on the 'course' is not relevant. For example, if you had been practising beside the 1st teeing ground your ball would certainly have been on the course but you would have been practising within the rules. I suggest the same holds for chipping to a practice green from the course.

Either way, what an unmitigated moron.