30kWh Leaf is announced

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Your min maxing again

I can get a nice medium spec 2016 1.6 turbo diesel 2016 model ( alloys heated this that and the other ) for 20k and that's list before any haggling

A 2016 leaf ( assuming no base price rises by the way ) after SEAI , SV with bigger charger , is 29k , I have seen no. Haggle room on leafs either. So there 9k straight away. , even of save 3k a year in running costs ( a figure I don't beleive by the way ) , it will take me 3-4 years to see any nett gain and in the meantime , I have to live with the not inconsiderable range issues.

Let's not become fan boys devoid of logic here. Eyes wide open and all that

29 K where are you getting that from ? leaf starts at 21,500 add 900 if you want the 6.6 kw charger and you still got timer controlled heat and ac, and no gearbox of course. Add that to your diesel and much more maintenance and probably motor tax.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

29 K where are you getting that from ? leaf starts at 21,500 add 900 if you want the 6.6 kw charger and you still got timer controlled heat and ac, and no gearbox of course. Add that to your diesel and much more maintenance and probably motor tax.

The SV is 25 k list ( 24990) ( inc SEAI ) , plus 3k for bigger battery and 900 for bigger charger and 600 for nissan branded granny cable , according to my dealer, the entry leaf will not be offered with the smaller battery

That's close to 30 k , a 2016 208 tdi is 21,000 with alloys, keyless entry , sat etc.

Seriously mate , you need to look these numbers up carefully. I was in a nissan leaf garage yesterday , went through the numbers , was in Peugeot, Citroen and Vw Thursday. My leaf trial is next week ( 4 day trial ) but I can't see it making sense on a near 10 year payback.

Servicing is not a major factor , 200 quid a year for the Peugeot ( you get 4 forth free ) equally I could change the filters myself , hardly do that on a new EV though !

EVs just don't Stack up, especially with the way nissan have priced the bigger battery.

Roen

Then don't get an EV. You have posted pretty much the same thing in about a half dozen threads. The numbers don't add up. Look elsewhere.

BoatMad

Roen wrote: »

Then don't get an EV. You have posted pretty much the same thing in about a half dozen threads. The numbers don't add up. Look elsewhere.

Actually I want to buy one, just don't want to go broke in the process , I also want to combat some very spurious figures being bandied about.

Loads of people are self justifying an " EV" on cost grounds ( I'm saving a fortune on fuel etc ) , there codding themselves or engaging in min maxing or using a very specific set f advantageous circumstances ( I'll get out of bed to drive to a free fast charger etc )

We need a sane sober analysis. It's just a car for goodness sake, not a piece of art.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

The SV is 25 k list ( 24990) ( inc SEAI ) , plus 3k for bigger battery and 900 for bigger charger and 600 for nissan branded granny cable , according to my dealer, the entry leaf will not be offered with the smaller battery

Who said anything about bigger battery ? I said you can get the Leaf starting at 21,500 , I'n 20,000 kms I can't think of a time I would have needed the granny cable, far better off getting the 6.6 kw charger instead, much more practical. So your cost is 22,400 for the starting price including 6.6 kw charger.

BoatMad wrote: »

That's close to 30 k , a 2016 208 tdi is 21,000 with alloys, keyless entry , sat etc.

30 K ? 22,400. you can buy a hyundai I.30 diesel manual for 25K or auto for 27,500 K Euro's

Mid spec leaf SV + 900 6.6 kw charger 25,400

You can turn a Golf into a 45 K car doesn't mean you have to spend that on it.

Speaking of Golfs, 1600 Sat nav ?? 450 rear camera, 400 metallic paint. 450 17" wheels, 900 Auto climate control ? 400 rear led lights. you're talking over 30 K with no led lights and no remote heater activation. No heated seats and steering wheel.

BoatMad wrote: »

Seriously mate , you need to look these numbers up carefully. I was in a nissan leaf garage yesterday , went through the numbers , was in Peugeot, Citroen and Vw Thursday. My leaf trial is next week ( 4 day trial ) but I can't see it making sense on a near 10 year payback.

You need to take a look at your own numbers mate !

BoatMad wrote: »

EVs just don't Stack up, especially with the way nissan have priced the bigger battery.

Electrics stack up brilliantly compared to similarly priced cars, granted the extra money for the 30 kwh is hard to swallow but I rarely need 100 miles range and have work charging now so I wouldn't pay for it. But it would be convenient, I'd rather wait to 2018 when the big range upgrade comes and there is more choice.

Roen

Fair enough. It just seemed that you had made your mind up and were reiterating the same thing over and over.
In my case the maths don't bother me. I bought one as an experiment. I put my money where my mouth is and if it works out then great. If it doesn't then I'm stuck with it for a few years and I can kick myself.

I spent 18 months thinking about what car to get next and once an EV came into my mind I had it test driven and ordered in a week.

Sometimes you just have to take a bite of the sandwich to see is that Nutella or sh1t in it.
So far it's two months of Nutella. Phew.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually I want to buy one, just don't want to go broke in the process , I also want to combat some very spurious figures being bandied about.

Loads of people are self justifying an " EV" on cost grounds ( I'm saving a fortune on fuel etc ) , there codding themselves or engaging in min maxing or using a very specific set f advantageous circumstances ( I'll get out of bed to drive to a free fast charger etc )

We need a sane sober analysis. It's just a car for goodness sake, not a piece of art.

I think I spent long enough doing the sums befor I got the leaf, if I wanted to save money then I would have kept the Prius and after 4 years and 230,000 odd Kms later I decided I wanted a change.

I wanted the Leaf, I wouldn't have got a new car if I had to spend so much on diesel and to get a Prius new is more expensive than the Leaf with a lot greater fuel costs. Even in a 60+ mpg car.

The diesel would cost me around the same to buy but much more to fuel, lesser equipped.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The leaf has a lot of extras, such as remote activation of heat and ac,

Lol. Perhaps not the best example, since it rarely works...

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Lol. Perhaps not the best example, since it rarely works...

Usually works for me. Works a lot better since Nissan U.K did a full reset and got me to do the same on the head unit.

Carwings is getting scrapped in the U.S I think, not sure about Europe. They're replacing it worth something else and will use 4G or 3Gthe

Most people will use the timers anyway. And that's not failed for me yet to set the Heater timer via the App.

GreyDad

Well, if I may chime in here, with the enormous benefit of a full month of Leaf ownership...

The numbers do stack up - no-one pays list price for a new car and the same is true of a Leaf as much as any other. Take off the £5k EV grant and forget about it - that's an incentive to the *manufacturer* while the technology is relatively new and they don't have full economies of scale. Once volumes rise that will disappear but the cost to the buyer will remain the same.

A new Leaf is between £21-25k in the UK (sorry, I'm over here so I'll use the figures I know, I realise the sums are a bit different in Ireland) and from that you can take off between £3-5k in dealer and finance incentives, haggling, etc, so the real price you're likely to pay for a new Leaf is £16-20k. It's *well known* you can get a 2015 Leaf Tekna/SVE for under £20k.

Or buy an ex-demo like I did - Leaf Acenta with 6.6kW charger, 3 months old, 718 miles, chrome pack, metallic, protection pack, for £14.5k.

Now, for me take off £6k cash for the value of our old car and I'm left with roughly £8k to finance, for a larger, higher spec, better driving, more environmentally friendly car than we had before. I bought it cash but in this case choose to do the sums over 5 years since it's my wife's car and she does lower mileage than me - that's £1.7k per year. Her old car cost £1k to run with road tax, maintenance and fossil fuel so she's got a super new car which is non-polluting in use for £700/year net. OK, we have to pay for the electricity but from our use so far that's only going to be another £200 or so, or nothing at all if we get the solar PV in and running.

5 years is unlikely to be our lifetime use of the car, because more than likely it will be passed on to my son when he goes to uni, the wife gets a 30kWh Leaf and I have my 300-mile Nismo Leaf in 2017

Or instead of buying then lease it. PCP deals for a new Leaf Tekna are under £200.month for 2 and 3 year terms. If you do anything like I do, 15k miles a year mostly commuting, then that's less than I'm spending in diesel, maintenance and road tax, so yes if you do enough miles the car can pay for itself from the savings. If you only do 1000 miles a year then no, it probably won't.

Besides all the economic arguments I have to really disagree with the comment that EV's don't stack up. The truth is *we and the planet just cannot afford to continue to run personal transport on fossil fuels*. Whether we save money doing it or not we have to switch to a cleaner alternative and EV's are the best so far. The health and environmental costs of NOx pollution are *not factored in* to simplistic economics and this is a fundamental error in almost all analysis I've seen on transport costs.

The latest news about VW and the EPA emissions tests cheating has really sealed the whole argument for me, I have to get rid of our remaining fossil fuel car as quickly as I can.

By the way, all the above aside, the Leaf is a superb vehicle and an amazing piece of engineering. The driving experience is superb and we have had no problems with CarWings, which is proving to be really useful and a great deal of fun. The car works and works very well indeed.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Usually works for me. Works a lot better since Nissan U.K did a full reset and got me to do the same on the head unit.

Mine hasn't worked at all for 2 months. Nissan say they're working on it...

GreyDad

It seems very hit and miss: doesn't work for some people, works ok for others, patchy for everyone else.

Roen

Mine is working fine after initial issues. Love sending routes to the satnav from the comfort of my arm chair!

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

The SV is 25 k list ( 24990) ( inc SEAI ) , plus 3k for bigger battery and 900 for bigger charger and 600 for nissan branded granny cable , according to my dealer, the entry leaf will not be offered with the smaller battery

That's close to 30 k , a 2016 208 tdi is 21,000 with alloys, keyless entry , sat etc.

Seriously mate , you need to look these numbers up carefully. I was in a nissan leaf garage yesterday , went through the numbers , was in Peugeot, Citroen and Vw Thursday. My leaf trial is next week ( 4 day trial ) but I can't see it making sense on a near 10 year payback.

Servicing is not a major factor , 200 quid a year for the Peugeot ( you get 4 forth free ) equally I could change the filters myself , hardly do that on a new EV though !

EVs just don't Stack up, especially with the way nissan have priced the bigger battery.

TBH you're not even comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing apples and donkeys. Firstly, the Leaf is quite a bit larger than a 208 - it's really the 308 you should be looking at. Looking at the price list, the closest match with the mid level Leaf SV in terms of spec etc is the 308 Active Automatic, list price €28900 - call it €30k with delivery and metallic. Leaf SV is €25500. I'm not including the 6kW charger or new larger battery because very few people actually have the 6kW (I don't, and did Cobh - Tralee and back last Friday without issue - again), and there is no confirmation of the price of the larger 2016 battery. Granny cable? Only useful for those in specific situations. So, even with a whopping discount, the nearest match Peugeot costs quite a bit more than a Leaf! And that's even without accounting for the Leaf's ~400mpg equivalent 'fuel' use. Servicing - You can't change the filters on the Leaf?! It doesn't have any! The only routine servicing is tyres, suspension etc which, if you're handy, you can still do yourself.

We need a sane sober analysis. It's just a car for goodness sake, not a piece of art.

And that's exactly what I did before buying one. I'm no eco-warrior (my previous car was a 3L petrol V6) but the numbers just stacked up! I checked out most new mid size+ diesels (and second hand 2010+ diesels and hybrids) and the car that made the most sense was the Leaf. It may surprise you, but the only other choices on my budget were a Dacia Duster (PCP cost a lot less, but overall cost a bit more) or a 2010/2011 60k+ miles bog spec diesel Mondeo or similar (bit cheaper than Leaf, but enough to swing buying an 'old' limited warranty car over a brand new one). In the end, I went for the Leaf over the Duster because (i) it was cheaper overall, (ii) cabin and kit a lot better, (iii) 'gearbox' and ride far superior. I also got the €4k scrappage which is now gone but, to be fair, I would imagine the majority of people who bought in the last year or so also benefited from this.

DrPhilG

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Firstly, the Leaf is quite a bit larger than a 208 - it's really the 308 you should be looking at.

I just changed from a 308 to the Leaf. The Leaf is much more roomy inside. Loses a bit of boot space though, especially since I installed a spare wheel.

I had the 308 1.6 Active though and I must confess that I miss some things compared to the Leaf Tekna. The bluetooth phone use and connection is poor, on the 308 the car picked up your recent dialled list automatically from the phone, whereas the Leaf only remembers what you have dialled directly from the car. The 308 read your numbers from the phone rather than having to copy them over.

The wheel controls for the stereo, cruise control etc were superior on the Peugeot too. And the Leaf's temperature controls are awful.

That said the Leaf is much more comfortable, spacious and dramatically cheaper to run. I've gone from spending £180 (€230) per month to (in future) €30-€40 a month on the electric bill and currently a lot less because I use public charging a fair bit.

That's a monthly saving of €200. Plus annual tax saving of €70 and insurance dropped by €70. Estimate on servicing saving of about €200.

That's a total annual saving of over €2700. And I only paid about €2.5k more for my 18 month old Leaf with 5k miles than I did for the previous car which was a 18 month old 308 with 18k miles.

Padraig Mor

DrPhilG wrote: »

I just changed from a 308 to the Leaf. The Leaf is much more roomy inside. Loses a bit of boot space though, especially since I installed a spare wheel.

I had the 308 1.6 Active though and I must confess that I miss some things compared to the Leaf Tekna. The bluetooth phone use and connection is poor, on the 308 the car picked up your recent dialled list automatically from the phone, whereas the Leaf only remembers what you have dialled directly from the car. The 308 read your numbers from the phone rather than having to copy them over.

The wheel controls for the stereo, cruise control etc were superior on the Peugeot too. And the Leaf's temperature controls are awful.

That said the Leaf is much more comfortable, spacious and dramatically cheaper to run. I've gone from spending £180 (€230) per month to (in future) €30-€40 a month on the electric bill and currently a lot less because I use public charging a fair bit.

That's a monthly saving of €200. Plus annual tax saving of €70 and insurance dropped by €70. Estimate on servicing saving of about €200.

That's a total annual saving of over €2700. And I only paid about €2.5k more for my 18 month old Leaf with 5k miles than I did for the previous car which was a 18 month old 308 with 18k miles.

Yeah, I reckon the Leaf's interior is near-as-dammit as spacious as my old Lexus GS - and that wasn't a small car! I do think 'the little things' let the Leaf down - as you say, the climate control is crap, sat nav and entertainment is needlessly clunky to use etc. But then you press the pedal and cruise away smoothly and it all makes sense!

BoatMad

Padraig Mor wrote: »

TBH you're not even comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing apples and donkeys. Firstly, the Leaf is quite a bit larger than a 208 - it's really the 308 you should be looking at. Looking at the price list, the closest match with the mid level Leaf SV in terms of spec etc is the 308 Active Automatic, list price €28900 - call it €30k with delivery and metallic. Leaf SV is €25500. I'm not including the 6kW charger or new larger battery because very few people actually have the 6kW (I don't, and did Cobh - Tralee and back last Friday without issue - again), and there is no confirmation of the price of the larger 2016 battery. Granny cable? Only useful for those in specific situations. So, even with a whopping discount, the nearest match Peugeot costs quite a bit more than a Leaf! And that's even without accounting for the Leaf's ~400mpg equivalent 'fuel' use. Servicing - You can't change the filters on the Leaf?! It doesn't have any! The only routine servicing is tyres, suspension etc which, if you're handy, you can still do yourself.


And that's exactly what I did before buying one. I'm no eco-warrior (my previous car was a 3L petrol V6) but the numbers just stacked up! I checked out most new mid size+ diesels (and second hand 2010+ diesels and hybrids) and the car that made the most sense was the Leaf. It may surprise you, but the only other choices on my budget were a Dacia Duster (PCP cost a lot less, but overall cost a bit more) or a 2010/2011 60k+ miles bog spec diesel Mondeo or similar (bit cheaper than Leaf, but enough to swing buying an 'old' limited warranty car over a brand new one). In the end, I went for the Leaf over the Duster because (i) it was cheaper overall, (ii) cabin and kit a lot better, (iii) 'gearbox' and ride far superior. I also got the €4k scrappage which is now gone but, to be fair, I would imagine the majority of people who bought in the last year or so also benefited from this.

I don't agree re the model comparison, the leaf is essentially a one model car. So it's not relevant to compare it to a car that's priced like it. Of I could get a slightly smaller leaf , or one with a manual etc , I would. The leaf isn't automatic , it has no real gearbox at all.

The larger battery is needed to reliably do a 150 km daily commute without any guarantee of at work charging as this is to getting anywhere.

The fact is no matter how you look at it. I save about 1000-1200 euros per year
Using the leaf , but the fact is , the SV leaf with the bigger battery ( dealer confirmed additionsl 3k euros ) is close to 29k euros and that after a 5k gov grant . The + side is the 4k scrappage , although nissan can't say its going to continue into next year. The - minus side is nissan Ireland very expensive 7.9 % PCP rate.

At the end of the day , with 1000-1200 to save , I'm using at amortising , a 7-8 k difference on 1200 savings. You can do the math !

The fact is it doesn't stack up. The leaf especially with the new battery , is wildly overpriced. Take away the grant and this is a car priced in BMW territory but with a nissan badge. ( and I currently drive a nissan )

This excludes other costs that might occur over the next few years , like being charged for fast charging , a grand for SVSE installations ,

Add to that the unknown future battery life and hence value of the car. ( this bit I can handle and ignore)

This is still a fan boy purchase. Frankly I don't give a hoot about fossil fuels, I mean where's the electricity coming from ? , private car emmisions are a small % of the issue.

Ps. It's the same when people tell me there saving a fortune buying a diesel . When you add the diesel savings and add back the cost difference in buying the diesel , they'll never actually break even during the PCP lifetime. There codding themselves

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't agree re the model comparison, the leaf is essentially a one model car.

I don't agree. You're comparing it to a smaller, lower spec car. I've seen the same on another forum - "why would you buy a Leaf, when you could get a Polo for €20k" - because they're not comparable! Why compare a 208? Why not a 108? Why don't you get a 108? That's available for only €14k! The simple fact is the closest objective match (size, spec) to a Leaf in the Peugeot range is the 308 Active Automatic - and this costs more than the comparable Leaf, even before you account for running costs (I will accept that Nissan's PCP rate is very high though).

The larger battery is needed to reliably do a 150 km daily commute without any guarantee of at work charging as this is to getting anywhere.

In my opinion, if you have a 150km daily commute with no work charging the Leaf isn't for you unless you're committed. Yes, we have members here who do similar mileage and need to fast charge every day - fair play, but that's not for me! But the Leaf doesn't pretend to be suitable for everyone. It's for people who do low to moderate mileage - which is the vast majority of people (even though many don't realise it). Most people's commute is a lot less than 150km - these are the people the Leaf is aimed at. My daily round trip is 60km - and I come farther than most at my workplace. Perfect for the Leaf! If you take the 'average' family - 2 adults, 2 kids, 2 cars, each doing moderate mileage, the Leaf makes huge sense.

This is still a fan boy purchase. Frankly I don't give a hoot about fossil fuels, I mean where's the electricity coming from ?

As I've said, I'm far from a fanboy. Frankly I don't give a hoot about emissions etc - I'm driving a Leaf because the numbers stack up! The Leaf may not work for you in terms of your commute etc - but I believe it is suitable for far more people than realise it.

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

This is still a fan boy purchase. Frankly I don't give a hoot about fossil fuels, I mean where's the electricity coming from ? , private car emmisions are a small % of the issue.

I don't give a hoot about the environmental impact either as I'm well aware that it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. ICE cars are worse ongoing, EVs are worse in production.

I am not a fanboy. I initially dismissed my wife's suggestions to go electric because I thought she was just trying to be green without actually doing the math.

However I have since done the math and am currently demonstrating a huge saving, which you have conveniently ignored in favour of continuing to bang the drum that EVs are not a fad and not economical.

BoatMad

In my opinion, if you have a 150km daily commute with no work charging the Leaf isn't for you unless you're committed. Yes, we have members here who do similar mileage and need to fast charge every day - fair play, but that's not for me! But the Leaf doesn't pretend to be suitable for everyone. It's for people who do low to moderate mileage - which is the vast majority of people (even though many don't realise it). Most people's commute is a lot less than 150km - these are the people the Leaf is aimed at. My daily round trip is 60km - and I come farther than most at my workplace. Perfect for the Leaf! If you take the 'average' family - 2 adults, 2 kids, 2 cars, each doing moderate mileage, the Leaf makes huge sense.

I disagree the leaf costings improve the greater mileage one does as the saving per km increase. Low mileage actually benefits a small modern petrol car. You have to amortise both purchase and running costs yet people never do.

So actually leaf is better for me then u. But the problem is the very high cost compared to a suitable , not neccessary equivalent car.

Yes you are right , a new efficient petrol car may be better then diesel I've run those numbers. Break even is around 3.5 years .

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

I don't give a hoot about the environmental impact either as I'm well aware that it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. ICE cars are worse ongoing, EVs are worse in production.

I am not a fanboy. I initially dismissed my wife's suggestions to go electric because I thought she was just trying to be green without actually doing the math.

However I have since done the math and am currently demonstrating a huge saving, which you have conveniently ignored in favour of continuing to bang the drum that EVs are not a fad and not economical.

This is my issue , what " huge " savings. People are basing costing on a bonus , ie free public charging , that's not a sustainable comparison as it's the stated policy to charge for that.

Using solely night rate at 10.19 and based on 40 weeks at 750 km per week, which is very high mileage , I'll save 1200 or there abputs over a small diesel. So that's certainly a saving , the trouble is it's not a lot in comparison to the purchase price of a leaf. For example it would take me two years to recover the additional cost of the 30 kW battery alone.

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

free public charging , that's not a sustainable comparison as it's the stated policy to charge for that.

You posted somewhere, (not sure if it was here or elsewhere) that the ESB have publicly stated that charging would start in 2017 for between €3-5 per time. Have you a link to that public statement?

BoatMad wrote: »

This is my issue , what " huge " savings.

As previously stated (which you ignored).

DrPhilG wrote: »

I've gone from spending £180 (€230) per month to (in future) €30-€40 a month on the electric bill and currently a lot less because I use public charging a fair bit.

That's a monthly saving of €200. Plus annual tax saving of €70 and insurance dropped by €70. Estimate on servicing saving of about €200.

That's a total annual saving of over €2700. And I only paid about €2.5k more for my 18 month old Leaf with 5k miles than I did for the previous car which was a 18 month old 308 with 18k miles.

Those savings are based on the estimate for doing all my charging at home. Currently it's more because I use free public charging a lot.

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

You posted somewhere, (not sure if it was here or elsewhere) that the ESB have publicly stated that charging would start in 2017 for between €3-5 per time. Have you a link to that public statement?




As previously stated (which you ignored).



Those savings are based on the estimate for doing all my charging at home. Currently it's more because I use free public charging a lot.

my rates are based on home charging at 10.19

Case (a) Leaf versus small turbo D.

savings about 3.2 cents per km, based on 30Km, about 1000 per year, plus 70 tax and 200 servicing , say 1300 a year


case (b) Leaf versus current car
savings of 6.8 cents on fuel , approx 2000 a year saving , plus road tax + servicing savings , say 200, giving 2300, plus my card is old and costing about 500 a year in additional parts , so 3800, nearly 4K a year


HOWEVER, my current car cost 1000 euros and Ive spent 1500 on it over three years . so 2500 cost of the car or 70 euros a month

a new Tdi, would be around ( after much PCPing) about 220 a month

The Leaf with the SV spec and bigger battery , is close to 29K, so over a 300 month PCP plus higher deposit

If you take the total cost of ownership and merge capital and running costs together over the expected ownership cycle ( PCP = 3 years) , the Leaf savings on a new TDi , generate a break even at 7.5 years over the Tdi,

If I buy another 2K car and keep it running for 3 years , The break even point is in the stratosphere , but thats not a good comparison !

IN fact at present it would be better to get a small good spec petrol car. as the break even point on the diesel is actually beyond the PCP 3 year point.


My experience is very few people do TCO calculations , focussing instead on " running costs savings, conveniently forgetting the huge monthly outgoings actually paying for the thing !. compartmentalisation at its best


Its a pity because technically Id like to own a leaf, the extra battery cost really soured in the mouth m because Nissan in my view are price gouging

DrPhilG

So finally you state what everyone else here has been telling you for days.

An EV is not suitable FOR YOU and YOUR particular needs.

You keep stating €1000-1200 as the maximum saving per year as if it's the default agreed saving for all.

I'm saving more than double that but I'm not daft enough to announce my savings as the industry standard.

Everyone needs to figure out their own costs and come to their own conclusions. You constantly put forth your own individual situation as proof that EVs are not economically viable.

BoatMad

Everyone needs to figure out their own costs and come to their own conclusions. You constantly put forth your own individual situation as proof that EVs are not economically viable.

Id like to see any comparable new car comparison on a three year PCP that made sense, lower mileage makes the LEAF actually worse. I cant see any situation where its running costs savings , justify it over a new ICE, that my issue. The purchase price of the car is too much against the savings generated to make any sense.

Factoring in savings from public charging as if its going to be free for the lifetime of the car is really fooling ones self

Im not arguing the case of EVs in general. Im arguing that of the 30kw SV Leaf specifically

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

Im not arguing the case of EVs in general. Im arguing that of the 30kw SV Leaf specifically

You're arguing against EVs in about 6 different threads at once.

Do you accept that for someone like me, doing around 15k miles per year and changing my 3 year old car for a 1 year old, needing a medium-large sized hatchback, and with a daily commute of around 25 miles a day, the Leaf was a very easy and correct choice and will save me well over €2k a year?

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

a new Tdi, would be around ( after much PCPing) about 220 a month

The Leaf with the SV spec and bigger battery , is close to 29K, so over a 300 month PCP plus higher deposit

If you take the total cost of ownership and merge capital and running costs together over the expected ownership cycle ( PCP = 3 years) , the Leaf savings on a new TDi , generate a break even at 7.5 years over the Tdi,

If I buy another 2K car and keep it running for 3 years , The break even point is in the stratosphere , but thats not a good comparison !

IN fact at present it would be better to get a small good spec petrol car. as the break even point on the diesel is actually beyond the PCP 3 year point.


My experience is very few people do TCO calculations , focussing instead on " running costs savings, conveniently forgetting the huge monthly outgoings actually paying for the thing !. compartmentalisation at its best


Its a pity because technically Id like to own a leaf, the extra battery cost really soured in the mouth m because Nissan in my view are price gouging

I was scrupulous about TCO - I factored in purchase cost, insurance, servicing, fuel, tax. Figures against a Dacia Duster were:

Total running costs per month excl finance:
Leaf: €63, Duster: €190.
(This was based on 17k km per annum; I'm actually doing more in the Leaf now because we use it as much as possible).

Finance: Leaf: €424, Duster: €293.

As you can see, very little in it. There are some other factors as well which overall make the Leaf cheaper. I'm not sure what you're buying for €220 per month on PCP - the Duster was the cheapest I got at €290, although I suspect I was looking at larger cars than you.

I hope I'm not coming across as combative - but I really think the Leaf makes sense for a lot of people.

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

Factoring in savings from public charging as if its going to be free for the lifetime of the car is really fooling ones self

Are you deliberately being obnoxious?

Has even one single person here factored in the savings from free public charging in their calculations?

BoatMad

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I was scrupulous about TCO - I factored in purchase cost, insurance, servicing, fuel, tax. Figures against a Dacia Duster were:

Total running costs per month excl finance:
Leaf: €63, Duster: €190.
(This was based on 17k km per annum; I'm actually doing more in the Leaf now because we use it as much as possible).

Finance: Leaf: €424, Duster: €293.

As you can see, very little in it. There are some other factors as well which overall make the Leaf cheaper. I'm not sure what you're buying for €220 per month on PCP - the Duster was the cheapest I got at €290, although I suspect I was looking at larger cars than you.

I hope I'm not coming across as combative - but I really think the Leaf makes sense for a lot of people.

great - thanks , thats a real example

So given its about evens, did you buy an EV, given you do have to inconvenience yourself to run an EV to a greater extent then an ICE?

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

Are you deliberately being obnoxious?

Has even one single person here factored in the savings from free public charging in their calculations?

yes the guy on the ESB-ecar web site who ended up with a 0,2 cents per KM running cost. That can only be achieved by factoring in major free recharging