30kWh Leaf is announced

Roen

Well, it's official.

http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=137082

Dec before it goes on sale.

Looks like a decent update, i.e. better battery warranty, new infotainment system.

Bigus

"25% increase in LEAF driving range - 155 miles* (250km) on a single charge"

A bit of a game changer this,

Also I wonder could you retro fit to early leaf in future at a reasonable price ?

Only 21kg weight gain , good stuff.

Roen

155 miles in Europe, 107 by US reckoning. I know which is more realistic

bk

Roen wrote: »

155 miles in Europe, 107 by US reckoning. I know which is more realistic

I was just about to write that!

However if I'm not mistaken it sounds like you would be able to make it Cork to Dublin with just one 20 to 30 minute fast charge?

If so, that would mean it would be perfectly good for all my needs

Though in 2017 they are expected to have a completely new, redesigned Leaf which will be expected to get about 150 to 175 miles range by US reckoning.

So not sure if I should hold off for that.

cros13

NCM battery chemistry, same as the i3. And warranty is bumped to 8 years 160,000km. Which is only fair because the new chemistry is more resilient.
i3 is moving to NCA next year for a 40% capacity bump.

The base XE is getting a touchscreen infotainment system as standard.
decent capacitive touchscreens too.

New longer range LEAF: 2016 LEAF 30 kWh delivers 155 mile range

This is disgraceful, it will get a good 160-200 Kms MAX , certainly not 250 Kms. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise this.

The Kia soul EV was tested as having 100 miles " 20 deg C no climate, no wind "62 mph in the U.S . 104 miles was driven in total.

The Leaf can do 90-100 miles in very favourable conditions , 60-80 Kph at about 18-20 degrees, so it's possible the 30 kwh could do 130 miles under the same conditions.

I can make it home taking exit 6 "Kilteel" on the N7 heading south, in by punchestown, on to the old Naas Kilcullen road, into kilcullen and down the old N9 , it's about 7 kms shorter.

I go up the old N9 and on to the motorway at Kilcullen and into Grangecastle, speeds about 100-110 Kph and back about 60-80 Kph and it cuts it very close getting home without charging on the way.

I got home with 9% once and --- another. So it's too close and not something I think I could do in winter. his is with about 22 Kwh of usable energy.

So It shouldn't be too long before our friends in the U.S test the actual usable capacity for the 30 kwh, my guess is that's the usable Kwh available if that's the case that would get me home no problem and at faster speeds but I would still be running the battery low.

Anyway when the MK II comes end of 2017 , that will be worth waiting for !!!

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

NCM battery chemistry, same as the i3. And warranty is bumped to 8 years 160,000km. Which is only fair because the new chemistry is more resilient.
i3 is moving to NCA next year for a 40% capacity bump.

The base XE is getting a touchscreen infotainment system as standard.
decent capacitive touchscreens too.

Still won't offer as much range as the 30 Kwh leaf, the I3 is only playing catch up.

I wonder will they bump up the price ?

I've not heard a whisper yet about this alleged range upgrade only from you ?

the 30 Kwh carries a $1,900 and probably cost 1700-1800 in Europe due to extortion tax.

I think at the very least should have cost the same considering battery prices have fallen a good bit since the Leaf was designed back in 2009. I'm not impressed. Cost 30,000 -30,200 Euro's for the SVE that is expensive.

The Mid SV cost 27,200 give or take .

The 30 Kwh will be optional. At this rate I don't know how they will make a 40-50 kwh battery affordable in 2 years, could see 35K and if the Tesla costs 35K USD, who's going to buy the leaf ? the tesla will probably even have more range than Leaf II.

I'm really disappointed that it's costing so much extra after 6 years it should have cost the same as the current leaf or slightly less.

If the Government remove the grant and vrt reduction, electrics are dead. manufactures need to get costs down big time !

Model S 35 K = 31,00 euro, the euro is getting poor.

31,000 euros + 21.5 % vat = 37,665 and probably for the most basic, then Elon charges something ridiculous like 10 K extra for conversion to right hand side. but if 37,665 and the 5K grant is available it would cost 32,665 after vat.

The Leaf wil most likely have a few battery options and in reality I would rarely need more than 150 miles, and if I do I can fast charge.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20526



2016 LEAF Specifications
Report this postQuote
Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:03 am

The LEAF is the best-selling 100-percent electric vehicle in the United States and it took a big leap forward for 2016, becoming the first affordable all-electric car to offer more than 100 miles of EPA-estimated range on a single charge.

Now standard on all 2016 Nissan LEAF SV and LEAF SL models, the new 30 kWh battery provides an EPA-estimated 107-mile driving range* on a fully charged battery. LEAF S models come with a 24 kWh battery rated at 84 miles on a full charge, giving buyers a choice in affordability and range.

In addition, the new battery offers improved charging performance. The battery in LEAF SV and SL can be quick-charged to 80 percent (from the low battery charge warning) in about 30 minutes, providing about 22 percent more miles of range compared to a 30-minute quick charge on previous LEAF models. Charging on a normal home charging system (Level 2, 240V) is estimated to take about six hours with the 6.6 kW onboard charger.

The new 30 kWh battery design adds capacity without increasing battery package size by improving the cell structure of the laminated lithium-ion battery cells. Improved electrode material with revised chemistry results in higher power density and enhanced battery durability upon charge and discharge.

While the 24 kWh battery is composed of four cells per module (192 cells total), the new 30 kWh battery’s modules contain eight newly designed cells per module (192 cells total). Unlike conventional cylindrical batteries, the thin, compact laminated cells offer more flexibility in packaging and design applications. The 30 kWh battery weighs just 46 pounds more than the 24 kWh battery and has the same battery pack size and footprint.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20526

Same fast charge time, that's excellent but probably because the battery charges from a lower state of charge faster than a higher soc and because the battery is larger it would spend more time in there's more to charge at a lower soc if that makes sense.

I'm disappointed there is no power upgrade or active cruise control, on a car like the Leaf that's a major omission !

I'm sure the Leaf is limited and is good for at least another 30-40 HP.

The 6.6 Kw charger according to the U.K specs is still optional !!! this is very bad form from Nissan, really bad !

3.3 kw to charge 30 Kwh, penny pinching Bast**ds. Renault got a 44 kw charger on board !!!

leaf should have at least 10 Kw AC.

Roen

You're on a roll there mad lad.
Hopefully we'll see some of those features in a less ugly package when the next model Leaf arrives.

I do worry about cost though. If the 5k grant dries up and the price rises for the 2017/18 then I'm out of new EVs when the PCP ends.
It'll be a shame as it will be hard to go back to dark side after the nice experience in the Leaf.

Yeah if the grant dries up that will be the end of new ev sales in Ireland. Not only the grant , if full VRT s applied it will be a lot worse.

I really think the leaf should be cheaper at this stage , at the very least should cost the same with the larger battery.

the taxpayer is having to subsidise Nissan, Renault, BMW etc and I believe ev prices are being kept artificially high as a result.

Or because the leaf is really only starting to make Nissan money they will probably keep the price high for as long as they get away with to make back most of the development costs.

Anyway, I'm sure you'd keep the leaf rather than hand it hack for a ice car ? I certainly would depending on battery capacity.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

the taxpayer is having to subsidise Nissan, Renault, BMW etc and I believe ev prices are being kept artificially high as a result.

It's not really a subsidy though. Between VRT and VAT the government got well over €10,000 AFTER the VRT credit and SEAI grant on my i3. I have no doubt that Nissan and BMW are keeping their prices as low as possible. But for the moment our powertrains and production volumes are inherently more expensive.

Deleted User wrote: »

The 6.6 Kw charger according to the U.K specs is still optional !!! this is very bad form from Nissan, really bad !

3.3 kw to charge 30 Kwh, penny pinching Bast**ds. Renault got a 44 kw charger on board !!!

They are using the same charger for cost reasons. When you spec 6.6 a second charger is fitted. If they included the 6.6 in the base spec they would wipe out most of the profit margin.

Deleted User wrote: »

Still won't offer as much range as the 30 Kwh leaf, the I3 is only playing catch up.

I'm just making the point that the 30kWh was achieved with a shift to a higher energy density, more difficult to engineer chemistry. And that the i3 already uses that chemistry for it's much lighter battery... will be making the shift to NCA next year and that Nissan will probably follow with the third gen Leaf.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've not heard a whisper yet about this alleged range upgrade only from you ?

The 30kWh pack is the same size as the current Leaf battery. I got my info from two people, one in Nissan USA and one in Nissan Europe. The Nissan USA guy was sure it was going to happen over there, and the Nissan Europe guy said it was being considered but would depend on production yields.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

It's not really a subsidy though. Between VRT and VAT the government got well over €10,000 AFTER the VRT credit and SEAI grant on my i3. I have no doubt that Nissan and BMW are keeping their prices as low as possible. But for the moment our powertrains and production volumes are inherently more expensive.

It's a subsidy for the car companies. VAT should be reduced also for electrics if the Government are at all serious about increasing EV sales.

I don't believe the leaf is as expensive to make as it was in 2011 when it was first produced.

cros13 wrote: »

They are using the same charger for cost reasons. When you spec 6.6 a second charger is fitted. If they included the 6.6 in the base spec they would wipe out most of the profit margin.

I'm not saying the 6.6 kw should be included for the same cost but it shouldn't be an option imo because of the benefits of charging at 32 amps from standard street points , if someone is paying so much for a car in the first place that cost is more than made up for with the convenience of coming back to a charged car or at least significantly charged.

cros13 wrote: »

I'm just making the point that the 30kWh was achieved with a shift to a higher energy density, more difficult to engineer chemistry. And that the i3 already uses that chemistry for it's much lighter battery... will be making the shift to NCA next year and that Nissan will probably follow with the third gen Leaf.

I don't think the chemistry has changed , I think it's just altered ? it's still Manganese Spinel ? I don't think anyone knows yet. The I3 battery is also lighter because its got about 4 kwh less than the 24 Kwh leaf.

cros13 wrote: »

The 30kWh pack is the same size as the current Leaf battery. I got my info from two people, one in Nissan USA and one in Nissan Europe. The Nissan USA guy was sure it was going to happen over there, and the Nissan Europe guy said it was being considered but would depend on production yields.

Are we talking about the same thing ?

I was asking where you got your info about a larger I3 battery coming in 2016 ? or was it 2017 ?

How typical.

The upgraded Leaf isn't anywhere to be seen on the Irish Nissan site !

Roen

I imagine it won't be appearing in the wild til the new year.

GreyDad

Apparently delivery will be Dec 15 for US and Jan 16 for UK.

I've got an enquiry in for one, waiting to hear back on lease price and confirmed delivery for a 30kWh Acenta. Will let you know.

cros13

I've heard back from a contact in Nissan and one of the dealers.

€3k bump in price for all models.

A 3 k increase isn't the way to encourage people to buy electric. I Feel after 5 years (in 2016) that at least the cost should be the same wi the 30 kWh battery.

I reckon the increase is lots to do with the sliding Euro. New Leaf seemed pretty good value in Ireland compared to UK back in May when I ordered. But some extra margins are built in for the price as well "because a new product".

No because the U.S get an increase too but the big difference for us is tax that the Americans don't have to pay.

BoatMad

I think the 3k bump is crazy , cause the new battery as I was told is only available in the sVE and up models. So nissan seem to be suggesting that both batteries will be offered.

Add the bigger charger and the whole car is now getting very very expensive. It's nearly 10k more expensive then a similar sized small turbo diesel. You'd buy an awful lot of diesel for 10k

So much for batteries getting cheaper

Nissan are milking an early adopter market, knowing that those buying EVs arnt ordinary punters.

NCM NCA has nothing to do with it. , they are all just version of cathode doping in Lithium batteries. Tesla are moving to NCA to. ( more powerful,but less safe then NCM )

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No because the U.S get an increase too but the big difference for us is tax that the Americans don't have to pay.

Naw, it's just Nissan Ireland milking an early adopter market in my view. Nothing to do with tax

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Naw, it's just Nissan Ireland milking an early adopter market in my view. Nothing to do with tax

It's a lot to do with tax, we pay 23% VAT + VRT that Americans don't have to pay.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a lot to do with tax, we pay 23% VAT + VRT that Americans don't have to pay.

Fine , convert the additional adder and add in proportion VRT and vat. Deduct proportion of SEAI grant.

Still doesn't add up

It's a market pricing decision. Not tax

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I think the 3k bump is crazy , cause the new battery as I was told is only available in the sVE and up models. So nissan seem to be suggesting that both batteries will be offered.

Add the bigger charger and the whole car is now getting very very expensive. It's nearly 10k more expensive then a similar sized small turbo diesel. You'd buy an awful lot of diesel for 10k

I think there shouldn't have been a price increase due to the cost of batteries having falling in the last 5 years it should have more than cancelled out the Kwh increase.

The 30 Kwh will be available on the SV mid spec and the SVE high spec.

The Leaf isn't 10K more than the average hatch.

The Hyindai I30 1.6 Diesel Deluxe costs 23,495 and the Leaf SV 24,500

The I30 Automatic diesel costs 27,500.

The leaf has a lot of extras, such as remote activation of heat and ac, timer controlled also that's about 1200 Euro's extra if you were to include a parking heater to an ICE and you can't remote ac in an iCE. The Leaf also has all around view camera.

Sat nav is another 100-1200 Extra.

28,500 K in the Leaf gets you LED lights and the 6.6 kw charger, Sat nav, Heated seats, steering wheel, Remote activation and timer control of heat, ac, heated seats and steering wheel, Automatic ( not reall no gearbox) but if you were to add it to an ice that's 100-1200. Led lights 1200 1200 for the heater remote. 1200 for the sat nav.

So the leaf isn't that expensive compared to the diesel and it's much cheaper to run ! cost of the leaf over 20,000 Kms on night rate is about 190-200 Euro's the diesel 1300-1400. Service every 30,000 Diesel 15-20K, 120 motor tax on the EV, 200-250 on the diesel ?

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Fine , convert the additional adder and add in proportion VRT and vat. Deduct proportion of SEAI grant.

Still doesn't add up

It's a market pricing decision. Not tax

But you're not getting it, the U.S has to pay the additional charge also for the 30 kwh battery !

And in the E.U we pay far higher taxes than in the U.S on cars and most other things.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I think there shouldn't have been a price increase due to the cost of batteries having falling in the last 5 years it should have more than cancelled out the Kwh increase.

The 30 Kwh will be available on the SV mid spec and the SVE high spec.

The Leaf isn't 10K more than the average hatch.

The Hyindai I30 1.6 Diesel Deluxe costs 23,495 and the Leaf SV 24,500

The I30 Automatic diesel costs 27,500.

The leaf has a lot of extras, such as remote activation of heat and ac, timer controlled also that's about 1200 Euro's extra if you were to include a parking heater to an ICE and you can't remote ac in an iCE. The Leaf also has all around view camera.

Sat nav is another 100-1200 Extra.

28,500 K in the Leaf gets you LED lights and the 6.6 kw charger, Sat nav, Heated seats, steering wheel, Remote activation and timer control of heat, ac, heated seats and steering wheel, Automatic ( not reall no gearbox) but if you were to add it to an ice that's 100-1200. Led lights 1200 1200 for the heater remote. 1200 for the sat nav.

So the leaf isn't that expensive compared to the diesel and it's much cheaper to run ! cost of the leaf over 20,000 Kms on night rate is about 190-200 Euro's the diesel 1300-1400. Service every 30,000 Diesel 15-20K, 120 motor tax on the EV, 200-250 on the diesel ?

Your min maxing again

I can get a nice medium spec Peugeot 208 2016 1.6l turbo diesel 2016 model ( alloys heated this that and the other ) for 20k and that's list before any haggling

A 2016 leaf ( assuming no base price rises by the way ) after SEAI , SV with bigger charger , is 29k , I have seen no haggle room on leafs either. So there 9k straight away. , even if I save 3k a year in running costs ( a figure I don't beleive by the way ) , it will take me 3-4 years to see any nett gain and in the meantime , I have to live with the not inconsiderable range issues.

Add in the difference in PCP rates as Nissans very expensive and there's easily another 500-1000 in finance costs , there's your 10 without even trying , I bet I could even stretch it to 12k by min maxing myself

Let's not become fan boys devoid of logic here. Eyes wide open and all that

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Your min maxing again

I can get a nice medium spec 2016 1.6 turbo diesel 2016 model ( alloys heated this that and the other ) for 20k and that's list before any haggling

A 2016 leaf ( assuming no base price rises by the way ) after SEAI , SV with bigger charger , is 29k , I have seen no. Haggle room on leafs either. So there 9k straight away. , even of save 3k a year in running costs ( a figure I don't beleive by the way ) , it will take me 3-4 years to see any nett gain and in the meantime , I have to live with the not inconsiderable range issues.

Let's not become fan boys devoid of logic here. Eyes wide open and all that

29 K where are you getting that from ? leaf starts at 21,500 add 900 if you want the 6.6 kw charger and you still got timer controlled heat and ac, and no gearbox of course. Add that to your diesel and much more maintenance and probably motor tax.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

29 K where are you getting that from ? leaf starts at 21,500 add 900 if you want the 6.6 kw charger and you still got timer controlled heat and ac, and no gearbox of course. Add that to your diesel and much more maintenance and probably motor tax.

The SV is 25 k list ( 24990) ( inc SEAI ) , plus 3k for bigger battery and 900 for bigger charger and 600 for nissan branded granny cable , according to my dealer, the entry leaf will not be offered with the smaller battery

That's close to 30 k , a 2016 208 tdi is 21,000 with alloys, keyless entry , sat etc.

Seriously mate , you need to look these numbers up carefully. I was in a nissan leaf garage yesterday , went through the numbers , was in Peugeot, Citroen and Vw Thursday. My leaf trial is next week ( 4 day trial ) but I can't see it making sense on a near 10 year payback.

Servicing is not a major factor , 200 quid a year for the Peugeot ( you get 4 forth free ) equally I could change the filters myself , hardly do that on a new EV though !

EVs just don't Stack up, especially with the way nissan have priced the bigger battery.

Roen

Then don't get an EV. You have posted pretty much the same thing in about a half dozen threads. The numbers don't add up. Look elsewhere.

BoatMad

Roen wrote: »

Then don't get an EV. You have posted pretty much the same thing in about a half dozen threads. The numbers don't add up. Look elsewhere.

Actually I want to buy one, just don't want to go broke in the process , I also want to combat some very spurious figures being bandied about.

Loads of people are self justifying an " EV" on cost grounds ( I'm saving a fortune on fuel etc ) , there codding themselves or engaging in min maxing or using a very specific set f advantageous circumstances ( I'll get out of bed to drive to a free fast charger etc )

We need a sane sober analysis. It's just a car for goodness sake, not a piece of art.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

The SV is 25 k list ( 24990) ( inc SEAI ) , plus 3k for bigger battery and 900 for bigger charger and 600 for nissan branded granny cable , according to my dealer, the entry leaf will not be offered with the smaller battery

Who said anything about bigger battery ? I said you can get the Leaf starting at 21,500 , I'n 20,000 kms I can't think of a time I would have needed the granny cable, far better off getting the 6.6 kw charger instead, much more practical. So your cost is 22,400 for the starting price including 6.6 kw charger.

BoatMad wrote: »

That's close to 30 k , a 2016 208 tdi is 21,000 with alloys, keyless entry , sat etc.

30 K ? 22,400. you can buy a hyundai I.30 diesel manual for 25K or auto for 27,500 K Euro's

Mid spec leaf SV + 900 6.6 kw charger 25,400

You can turn a Golf into a 45 K car doesn't mean you have to spend that on it.

Speaking of Golfs, 1600 Sat nav ?? 450 rear camera, 400 metallic paint. 450 17" wheels, 900 Auto climate control ? 400 rear led lights. you're talking over 30 K with no led lights and no remote heater activation. No heated seats and steering wheel.

BoatMad wrote: »

Seriously mate , you need to look these numbers up carefully. I was in a nissan leaf garage yesterday , went through the numbers , was in Peugeot, Citroen and Vw Thursday. My leaf trial is next week ( 4 day trial ) but I can't see it making sense on a near 10 year payback.

You need to take a look at your own numbers mate !

BoatMad wrote: »

EVs just don't Stack up, especially with the way nissan have priced the bigger battery.

Electrics stack up brilliantly compared to similarly priced cars, granted the extra money for the 30 kwh is hard to swallow but I rarely need 100 miles range and have work charging now so I wouldn't pay for it. But it would be convenient, I'd rather wait to 2018 when the big range upgrade comes and there is more choice.

Roen

Fair enough. It just seemed that you had made your mind up and were reiterating the same thing over and over.
In my case the maths don't bother me. I bought one as an experiment. I put my money where my mouth is and if it works out then great. If it doesn't then I'm stuck with it for a few years and I can kick myself.

I spent 18 months thinking about what car to get next and once an EV came into my mind I had it test driven and ordered in a week.

Sometimes you just have to take a bite of the sandwich to see is that Nutella or sh1t in it.
So far it's two months of Nutella. Phew.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually I want to buy one, just don't want to go broke in the process , I also want to combat some very spurious figures being bandied about.

Loads of people are self justifying an " EV" on cost grounds ( I'm saving a fortune on fuel etc ) , there codding themselves or engaging in min maxing or using a very specific set f advantageous circumstances ( I'll get out of bed to drive to a free fast charger etc )

We need a sane sober analysis. It's just a car for goodness sake, not a piece of art.

I think I spent long enough doing the sums befor I got the leaf, if I wanted to save money then I would have kept the Prius and after 4 years and 230,000 odd Kms later I decided I wanted a change.

I wanted the Leaf, I wouldn't have got a new car if I had to spend so much on diesel and to get a Prius new is more expensive than the Leaf with a lot greater fuel costs. Even in a 60+ mpg car.

The diesel would cost me around the same to buy but much more to fuel, lesser equipped.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The leaf has a lot of extras, such as remote activation of heat and ac,

Lol. Perhaps not the best example, since it rarely works...

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Lol. Perhaps not the best example, since it rarely works...

Usually works for me. Works a lot better since Nissan U.K did a full reset and got me to do the same on the head unit.

Carwings is getting scrapped in the U.S I think, not sure about Europe. They're replacing it worth something else and will use 4G or 3Gthe

Most people will use the timers anyway. And that's not failed for me yet to set the Heater timer via the App.

GreyDad

Well, if I may chime in here, with the enormous benefit of a full month of Leaf ownership...

The numbers do stack up - no-one pays list price for a new car and the same is true of a Leaf as much as any other. Take off the £5k EV grant and forget about it - that's an incentive to the *manufacturer* while the technology is relatively new and they don't have full economies of scale. Once volumes rise that will disappear but the cost to the buyer will remain the same.

A new Leaf is between £21-25k in the UK (sorry, I'm over here so I'll use the figures I know, I realise the sums are a bit different in Ireland) and from that you can take off between £3-5k in dealer and finance incentives, haggling, etc, so the real price you're likely to pay for a new Leaf is £16-20k. It's *well known* you can get a 2015 Leaf Tekna/SVE for under £20k.

Or buy an ex-demo like I did - Leaf Acenta with 6.6kW charger, 3 months old, 718 miles, chrome pack, metallic, protection pack, for £14.5k.

Now, for me take off £6k cash for the value of our old car and I'm left with roughly £8k to finance, for a larger, higher spec, better driving, more environmentally friendly car than we had before. I bought it cash but in this case choose to do the sums over 5 years since it's my wife's car and she does lower mileage than me - that's £1.7k per year. Her old car cost £1k to run with road tax, maintenance and fossil fuel so she's got a super new car which is non-polluting in use for £700/year net. OK, we have to pay for the electricity but from our use so far that's only going to be another £200 or so, or nothing at all if we get the solar PV in and running.

5 years is unlikely to be our lifetime use of the car, because more than likely it will be passed on to my son when he goes to uni, the wife gets a 30kWh Leaf and I have my 300-mile Nismo Leaf in 2017

Or instead of buying then lease it. PCP deals for a new Leaf Tekna are under £200.month for 2 and 3 year terms. If you do anything like I do, 15k miles a year mostly commuting, then that's less than I'm spending in diesel, maintenance and road tax, so yes if you do enough miles the car can pay for itself from the savings. If you only do 1000 miles a year then no, it probably won't.

Besides all the economic arguments I have to really disagree with the comment that EV's don't stack up. The truth is *we and the planet just cannot afford to continue to run personal transport on fossil fuels*. Whether we save money doing it or not we have to switch to a cleaner alternative and EV's are the best so far. The health and environmental costs of NOx pollution are *not factored in* to simplistic economics and this is a fundamental error in almost all analysis I've seen on transport costs.

The latest news about VW and the EPA emissions tests cheating has really sealed the whole argument for me, I have to get rid of our remaining fossil fuel car as quickly as I can.

By the way, all the above aside, the Leaf is a superb vehicle and an amazing piece of engineering. The driving experience is superb and we have had no problems with CarWings, which is proving to be really useful and a great deal of fun. The car works and works very well indeed.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Usually works for me. Works a lot better since Nissan U.K did a full reset and got me to do the same on the head unit.

Mine hasn't worked at all for 2 months. Nissan say they're working on it...

GreyDad

It seems very hit and miss: doesn't work for some people, works ok for others, patchy for everyone else.

Roen

Mine is working fine after initial issues. Love sending routes to the satnav from the comfort of my arm chair!

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

The SV is 25 k list ( 24990) ( inc SEAI ) , plus 3k for bigger battery and 900 for bigger charger and 600 for nissan branded granny cable , according to my dealer, the entry leaf will not be offered with the smaller battery

That's close to 30 k , a 2016 208 tdi is 21,000 with alloys, keyless entry , sat etc.

Seriously mate , you need to look these numbers up carefully. I was in a nissan leaf garage yesterday , went through the numbers , was in Peugeot, Citroen and Vw Thursday. My leaf trial is next week ( 4 day trial ) but I can't see it making sense on a near 10 year payback.

Servicing is not a major factor , 200 quid a year for the Peugeot ( you get 4 forth free ) equally I could change the filters myself , hardly do that on a new EV though !

EVs just don't Stack up, especially with the way nissan have priced the bigger battery.

TBH you're not even comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing apples and donkeys. Firstly, the Leaf is quite a bit larger than a 208 - it's really the 308 you should be looking at. Looking at the price list, the closest match with the mid level Leaf SV in terms of spec etc is the 308 Active Automatic, list price €28900 - call it €30k with delivery and metallic. Leaf SV is €25500. I'm not including the 6kW charger or new larger battery because very few people actually have the 6kW (I don't, and did Cobh - Tralee and back last Friday without issue - again), and there is no confirmation of the price of the larger 2016 battery. Granny cable? Only useful for those in specific situations. So, even with a whopping discount, the nearest match Peugeot costs quite a bit more than a Leaf! And that's even without accounting for the Leaf's ~400mpg equivalent 'fuel' use. Servicing - You can't change the filters on the Leaf?! It doesn't have any! The only routine servicing is tyres, suspension etc which, if you're handy, you can still do yourself.

We need a sane sober analysis. It's just a car for goodness sake, not a piece of art.

And that's exactly what I did before buying one. I'm no eco-warrior (my previous car was a 3L petrol V6) but the numbers just stacked up! I checked out most new mid size+ diesels (and second hand 2010+ diesels and hybrids) and the car that made the most sense was the Leaf. It may surprise you, but the only other choices on my budget were a Dacia Duster (PCP cost a lot less, but overall cost a bit more) or a 2010/2011 60k+ miles bog spec diesel Mondeo or similar (bit cheaper than Leaf, but enough to swing buying an 'old' limited warranty car over a brand new one). In the end, I went for the Leaf over the Duster because (i) it was cheaper overall, (ii) cabin and kit a lot better, (iii) 'gearbox' and ride far superior. I also got the €4k scrappage which is now gone but, to be fair, I would imagine the majority of people who bought in the last year or so also benefited from this.

DrPhilG

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Firstly, the Leaf is quite a bit larger than a 208 - it's really the 308 you should be looking at.

I just changed from a 308 to the Leaf. The Leaf is much more roomy inside. Loses a bit of boot space though, especially since I installed a spare wheel.

I had the 308 1.6 Active though and I must confess that I miss some things compared to the Leaf Tekna. The bluetooth phone use and connection is poor, on the 308 the car picked up your recent dialled list automatically from the phone, whereas the Leaf only remembers what you have dialled directly from the car. The 308 read your numbers from the phone rather than having to copy them over.

The wheel controls for the stereo, cruise control etc were superior on the Peugeot too. And the Leaf's temperature controls are awful.

That said the Leaf is much more comfortable, spacious and dramatically cheaper to run. I've gone from spending £180 (€230) per month to (in future) €30-€40 a month on the electric bill and currently a lot less because I use public charging a fair bit.

That's a monthly saving of €200. Plus annual tax saving of €70 and insurance dropped by €70. Estimate on servicing saving of about €200.

That's a total annual saving of over €2700. And I only paid about €2.5k more for my 18 month old Leaf with 5k miles than I did for the previous car which was a 18 month old 308 with 18k miles.

Padraig Mor

DrPhilG wrote: »

I just changed from a 308 to the Leaf. The Leaf is much more roomy inside. Loses a bit of boot space though, especially since I installed a spare wheel.

I had the 308 1.6 Active though and I must confess that I miss some things compared to the Leaf Tekna. The bluetooth phone use and connection is poor, on the 308 the car picked up your recent dialled list automatically from the phone, whereas the Leaf only remembers what you have dialled directly from the car. The 308 read your numbers from the phone rather than having to copy them over.

The wheel controls for the stereo, cruise control etc were superior on the Peugeot too. And the Leaf's temperature controls are awful.

That said the Leaf is much more comfortable, spacious and dramatically cheaper to run. I've gone from spending £180 (€230) per month to (in future) €30-€40 a month on the electric bill and currently a lot less because I use public charging a fair bit.

That's a monthly saving of €200. Plus annual tax saving of €70 and insurance dropped by €70. Estimate on servicing saving of about €200.

That's a total annual saving of over €2700. And I only paid about €2.5k more for my 18 month old Leaf with 5k miles than I did for the previous car which was a 18 month old 308 with 18k miles.

Yeah, I reckon the Leaf's interior is near-as-dammit as spacious as my old Lexus GS - and that wasn't a small car! I do think 'the little things' let the Leaf down - as you say, the climate control is crap, sat nav and entertainment is needlessly clunky to use etc. But then you press the pedal and cruise away smoothly and it all makes sense!

BoatMad

Padraig Mor wrote: »

TBH you're not even comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing apples and donkeys. Firstly, the Leaf is quite a bit larger than a 208 - it's really the 308 you should be looking at. Looking at the price list, the closest match with the mid level Leaf SV in terms of spec etc is the 308 Active Automatic, list price €28900 - call it €30k with delivery and metallic. Leaf SV is €25500. I'm not including the 6kW charger or new larger battery because very few people actually have the 6kW (I don't, and did Cobh - Tralee and back last Friday without issue - again), and there is no confirmation of the price of the larger 2016 battery. Granny cable? Only useful for those in specific situations. So, even with a whopping discount, the nearest match Peugeot costs quite a bit more than a Leaf! And that's even without accounting for the Leaf's ~400mpg equivalent 'fuel' use. Servicing - You can't change the filters on the Leaf?! It doesn't have any! The only routine servicing is tyres, suspension etc which, if you're handy, you can still do yourself.


And that's exactly what I did before buying one. I'm no eco-warrior (my previous car was a 3L petrol V6) but the numbers just stacked up! I checked out most new mid size+ diesels (and second hand 2010+ diesels and hybrids) and the car that made the most sense was the Leaf. It may surprise you, but the only other choices on my budget were a Dacia Duster (PCP cost a lot less, but overall cost a bit more) or a 2010/2011 60k+ miles bog spec diesel Mondeo or similar (bit cheaper than Leaf, but enough to swing buying an 'old' limited warranty car over a brand new one). In the end, I went for the Leaf over the Duster because (i) it was cheaper overall, (ii) cabin and kit a lot better, (iii) 'gearbox' and ride far superior. I also got the €4k scrappage which is now gone but, to be fair, I would imagine the majority of people who bought in the last year or so also benefited from this.

I don't agree re the model comparison, the leaf is essentially a one model car. So it's not relevant to compare it to a car that's priced like it. Of I could get a slightly smaller leaf , or one with a manual etc , I would. The leaf isn't automatic , it has no real gearbox at all.

The larger battery is needed to reliably do a 150 km daily commute without any guarantee of at work charging as this is to getting anywhere.

The fact is no matter how you look at it. I save about 1000-1200 euros per year
Using the leaf , but the fact is , the SV leaf with the bigger battery ( dealer confirmed additionsl 3k euros ) is close to 29k euros and that after a 5k gov grant . The + side is the 4k scrappage , although nissan can't say its going to continue into next year. The - minus side is nissan Ireland very expensive 7.9 % PCP rate.

At the end of the day , with 1000-1200 to save , I'm using at amortising , a 7-8 k difference on 1200 savings. You can do the math !

The fact is it doesn't stack up. The leaf especially with the new battery , is wildly overpriced. Take away the grant and this is a car priced in BMW territory but with a nissan badge. ( and I currently drive a nissan )

This excludes other costs that might occur over the next few years , like being charged for fast charging , a grand for SVSE installations ,

Add to that the unknown future battery life and hence value of the car. ( this bit I can handle and ignore)

This is still a fan boy purchase. Frankly I don't give a hoot about fossil fuels, I mean where's the electricity coming from ? , private car emmisions are a small % of the issue.

Ps. It's the same when people tell me there saving a fortune buying a diesel . When you add the diesel savings and add back the cost difference in buying the diesel , they'll never actually break even during the PCP lifetime. There codding themselves

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't agree re the model comparison, the leaf is essentially a one model car.

I don't agree. You're comparing it to a smaller, lower spec car. I've seen the same on another forum - "why would you buy a Leaf, when you could get a Polo for €20k" - because they're not comparable! Why compare a 208? Why not a 108? Why don't you get a 108? That's available for only €14k! The simple fact is the closest objective match (size, spec) to a Leaf in the Peugeot range is the 308 Active Automatic - and this costs more than the comparable Leaf, even before you account for running costs (I will accept that Nissan's PCP rate is very high though).

The larger battery is needed to reliably do a 150 km daily commute without any guarantee of at work charging as this is to getting anywhere.

In my opinion, if you have a 150km daily commute with no work charging the Leaf isn't for you unless you're committed. Yes, we have members here who do similar mileage and need to fast charge every day - fair play, but that's not for me! But the Leaf doesn't pretend to be suitable for everyone. It's for people who do low to moderate mileage - which is the vast majority of people (even though many don't realise it). Most people's commute is a lot less than 150km - these are the people the Leaf is aimed at. My daily round trip is 60km - and I come farther than most at my workplace. Perfect for the Leaf! If you take the 'average' family - 2 adults, 2 kids, 2 cars, each doing moderate mileage, the Leaf makes huge sense.

This is still a fan boy purchase. Frankly I don't give a hoot about fossil fuels, I mean where's the electricity coming from ?

As I've said, I'm far from a fanboy. Frankly I don't give a hoot about emissions etc - I'm driving a Leaf because the numbers stack up! The Leaf may not work for you in terms of your commute etc - but I believe it is suitable for far more people than realise it.

DrPhilG

BoatMad wrote: »

This is still a fan boy purchase. Frankly I don't give a hoot about fossil fuels, I mean where's the electricity coming from ? , private car emmisions are a small % of the issue.

I don't give a hoot about the environmental impact either as I'm well aware that it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. ICE cars are worse ongoing, EVs are worse in production.

I am not a fanboy. I initially dismissed my wife's suggestions to go electric because I thought she was just trying to be green without actually doing the math.

However I have since done the math and am currently demonstrating a huge saving, which you have conveniently ignored in favour of continuing to bang the drum that EVs are not a fad and not economical.

BoatMad

In my opinion, if you have a 150km daily commute with no work charging the Leaf isn't for you unless you're committed. Yes, we have members here who do similar mileage and need to fast charge every day - fair play, but that's not for me! But the Leaf doesn't pretend to be suitable for everyone. It's for people who do low to moderate mileage - which is the vast majority of people (even though many don't realise it). Most people's commute is a lot less than 150km - these are the people the Leaf is aimed at. My daily round trip is 60km - and I come farther than most at my workplace. Perfect for the Leaf! If you take the 'average' family - 2 adults, 2 kids, 2 cars, each doing moderate mileage, the Leaf makes huge sense.

I disagree the leaf costings improve the greater mileage one does as the saving per km increase. Low mileage actually benefits a small modern petrol car. You have to amortise both purchase and running costs yet people never do.

So actually leaf is better for me then u. But the problem is the very high cost compared to a suitable , not neccessary equivalent car.

Yes you are right , a new efficient petrol car may be better then diesel I've run those numbers. Break even is around 3.5 years .