30kWh Leaf is announced

Roen

Well, it's official.

http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=137082

Dec before it goes on sale.

samih

Looks like a decent update, i.e. better battery warranty, new infotainment system.

Bigus

"25% increase in LEAF driving range - 155 miles* (250km) on a single charge"

A bit of a game changer this,

Also I wonder could you retro fit to early leaf in future at a reasonable price ?

Only 21kg weight gain , good stuff.

Roen

155 miles in Europe, 107 by US reckoning. I know which is more realistic

bk

Roen wrote: »

155 miles in Europe, 107 by US reckoning. I know which is more realistic

I was just about to write that!

However if I'm not mistaken it sounds like you would be able to make it Cork to Dublin with just one 20 to 30 minute fast charge?

If so, that would mean it would be perfectly good for all my needs

Though in 2017 they are expected to have a completely new, redesigned Leaf which will be expected to get about 150 to 175 miles range by US reckoning.

So not sure if I should hold off for that.

cros13

NCM battery chemistry, same as the i3. And warranty is bumped to 8 years 160,000km. Which is only fair because the new chemistry is more resilient.
i3 is moving to NCA next year for a 40% capacity bump.

The base XE is getting a touchscreen infotainment system as standard.
decent capacitive touchscreens too.

New longer range LEAF: 2016 LEAF 30 kWh delivers 155 mile range

This is disgraceful, it will get a good 160-200 Kms MAX , certainly not 250 Kms. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise this.

The Kia soul EV was tested as having 100 miles " 20 deg C no climate, no wind "62 mph in the U.S . 104 miles was driven in total.

The Leaf can do 90-100 miles in very favourable conditions , 60-80 Kph at about 18-20 degrees, so it's possible the 30 kwh could do 130 miles under the same conditions.

I can make it home taking exit 6 "Kilteel" on the N7 heading south, in by punchestown, on to the old Naas Kilcullen road, into kilcullen and down the old N9 , it's about 7 kms shorter.

I go up the old N9 and on to the motorway at Kilcullen and into Grangecastle, speeds about 100-110 Kph and back about 60-80 Kph and it cuts it very close getting home without charging on the way.

I got home with 9% once and --- another. So it's too close and not something I think I could do in winter. his is with about 22 Kwh of usable energy.

So It shouldn't be too long before our friends in the U.S test the actual usable capacity for the 30 kwh, my guess is that's the usable Kwh available if that's the case that would get me home no problem and at faster speeds but I would still be running the battery low.

Anyway when the MK II comes end of 2017 , that will be worth waiting for !!!

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

NCM battery chemistry, same as the i3. And warranty is bumped to 8 years 160,000km. Which is only fair because the new chemistry is more resilient.
i3 is moving to NCA next year for a 40% capacity bump.

The base XE is getting a touchscreen infotainment system as standard.
decent capacitive touchscreens too.

Still won't offer as much range as the 30 Kwh leaf, the I3 is only playing catch up.

I wonder will they bump up the price ?

I've not heard a whisper yet about this alleged range upgrade only from you ?

the 30 Kwh carries a $1,900 and probably cost 1700-1800 in Europe due to extortion tax.

I think at the very least should have cost the same considering battery prices have fallen a good bit since the Leaf was designed back in 2009. I'm not impressed. Cost 30,000 -30,200 Euro's for the SVE that is expensive.

The Mid SV cost 27,200 give or take .

The 30 Kwh will be optional. At this rate I don't know how they will make a 40-50 kwh battery affordable in 2 years, could see 35K and if the Tesla costs 35K USD, who's going to buy the leaf ? the tesla will probably even have more range than Leaf II.

I'm really disappointed that it's costing so much extra after 6 years it should have cost the same as the current leaf or slightly less.

If the Government remove the grant and vrt reduction, electrics are dead. manufactures need to get costs down big time !

Model S 35 K = 31,00 euro, the euro is getting poor.

31,000 euros + 21.5 % vat = 37,665 and probably for the most basic, then Elon charges something ridiculous like 10 K extra for conversion to right hand side. but if 37,665 and the 5K grant is available it would cost 32,665 after vat.

The Leaf wil most likely have a few battery options and in reality I would rarely need more than 150 miles, and if I do I can fast charge.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20526



2016 LEAF Specifications
Report this postQuote
Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:03 am

The LEAF is the best-selling 100-percent electric vehicle in the United States and it took a big leap forward for 2016, becoming the first affordable all-electric car to offer more than 100 miles of EPA-estimated range on a single charge.

Now standard on all 2016 Nissan LEAF SV and LEAF SL models, the new 30 kWh battery provides an EPA-estimated 107-mile driving range* on a fully charged battery. LEAF S models come with a 24 kWh battery rated at 84 miles on a full charge, giving buyers a choice in affordability and range.

In addition, the new battery offers improved charging performance. The battery in LEAF SV and SL can be quick-charged to 80 percent (from the low battery charge warning) in about 30 minutes, providing about 22 percent more miles of range compared to a 30-minute quick charge on previous LEAF models. Charging on a normal home charging system (Level 2, 240V) is estimated to take about six hours with the 6.6 kW onboard charger.

The new 30 kWh battery design adds capacity without increasing battery package size by improving the cell structure of the laminated lithium-ion battery cells. Improved electrode material with revised chemistry results in higher power density and enhanced battery durability upon charge and discharge.

While the 24 kWh battery is composed of four cells per module (192 cells total), the new 30 kWh battery’s modules contain eight newly designed cells per module (192 cells total). Unlike conventional cylindrical batteries, the thin, compact laminated cells offer more flexibility in packaging and design applications. The 30 kWh battery weighs just 46 pounds more than the 24 kWh battery and has the same battery pack size and footprint.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20526

Same fast charge time, that's excellent but probably because the battery charges from a lower state of charge faster than a higher soc and because the battery is larger it would spend more time in there's more to charge at a lower soc if that makes sense.

I'm disappointed there is no power upgrade or active cruise control, on a car like the Leaf that's a major omission !

I'm sure the Leaf is limited and is good for at least another 30-40 HP.

The 6.6 Kw charger according to the U.K specs is still optional !!! this is very bad form from Nissan, really bad !

3.3 kw to charge 30 Kwh, penny pinching Bast**ds. Renault got a 44 kw charger on board !!!

leaf should have at least 10 Kw AC.

Roen

You're on a roll there mad lad.
Hopefully we'll see some of those features in a less ugly package when the next model Leaf arrives.

I do worry about cost though. If the 5k grant dries up and the price rises for the 2017/18 then I'm out of new EVs when the PCP ends.
It'll be a shame as it will be hard to go back to dark side after the nice experience in the Leaf.

Yeah if the grant dries up that will be the end of new ev sales in Ireland. Not only the grant , if full VRT s applied it will be a lot worse.

I really think the leaf should be cheaper at this stage , at the very least should cost the same with the larger battery.

the taxpayer is having to subsidise Nissan, Renault, BMW etc and I believe ev prices are being kept artificially high as a result.

Or because the leaf is really only starting to make Nissan money they will probably keep the price high for as long as they get away with to make back most of the development costs.

Anyway, I'm sure you'd keep the leaf rather than hand it hack for a ice car ? I certainly would depending on battery capacity.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

the taxpayer is having to subsidise Nissan, Renault, BMW etc and I believe ev prices are being kept artificially high as a result.

It's not really a subsidy though. Between VRT and VAT the government got well over €10,000 AFTER the VRT credit and SEAI grant on my i3. I have no doubt that Nissan and BMW are keeping their prices as low as possible. But for the moment our powertrains and production volumes are inherently more expensive.

Deleted User wrote: »

The 6.6 Kw charger according to the U.K specs is still optional !!! this is very bad form from Nissan, really bad !

3.3 kw to charge 30 Kwh, penny pinching Bast**ds. Renault got a 44 kw charger on board !!!

They are using the same charger for cost reasons. When you spec 6.6 a second charger is fitted. If they included the 6.6 in the base spec they would wipe out most of the profit margin.

Deleted User wrote: »

Still won't offer as much range as the 30 Kwh leaf, the I3 is only playing catch up.

I'm just making the point that the 30kWh was achieved with a shift to a higher energy density, more difficult to engineer chemistry. And that the i3 already uses that chemistry for it's much lighter battery... will be making the shift to NCA next year and that Nissan will probably follow with the third gen Leaf.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've not heard a whisper yet about this alleged range upgrade only from you ?

The 30kWh pack is the same size as the current Leaf battery. I got my info from two people, one in Nissan USA and one in Nissan Europe. The Nissan USA guy was sure it was going to happen over there, and the Nissan Europe guy said it was being considered but would depend on production yields.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

It's not really a subsidy though. Between VRT and VAT the government got well over €10,000 AFTER the VRT credit and SEAI grant on my i3. I have no doubt that Nissan and BMW are keeping their prices as low as possible. But for the moment our powertrains and production volumes are inherently more expensive.

It's a subsidy for the car companies. VAT should be reduced also for electrics if the Government are at all serious about increasing EV sales.

I don't believe the leaf is as expensive to make as it was in 2011 when it was first produced.

cros13 wrote: »

They are using the same charger for cost reasons. When you spec 6.6 a second charger is fitted. If they included the 6.6 in the base spec they would wipe out most of the profit margin.

I'm not saying the 6.6 kw should be included for the same cost but it shouldn't be an option imo because of the benefits of charging at 32 amps from standard street points , if someone is paying so much for a car in the first place that cost is more than made up for with the convenience of coming back to a charged car or at least significantly charged.

cros13 wrote: »

I'm just making the point that the 30kWh was achieved with a shift to a higher energy density, more difficult to engineer chemistry. And that the i3 already uses that chemistry for it's much lighter battery... will be making the shift to NCA next year and that Nissan will probably follow with the third gen Leaf.

I don't think the chemistry has changed , I think it's just altered ? it's still Manganese Spinel ? I don't think anyone knows yet. The I3 battery is also lighter because its got about 4 kwh less than the 24 Kwh leaf.

cros13 wrote: »

The 30kWh pack is the same size as the current Leaf battery. I got my info from two people, one in Nissan USA and one in Nissan Europe. The Nissan USA guy was sure it was going to happen over there, and the Nissan Europe guy said it was being considered but would depend on production yields.

Are we talking about the same thing ?

I was asking where you got your info about a larger I3 battery coming in 2016 ? or was it 2017 ?

How typical.

The upgraded Leaf isn't anywhere to be seen on the Irish Nissan site !

Roen

I imagine it won't be appearing in the wild til the new year.

GreyDad

Apparently delivery will be Dec 15 for US and Jan 16 for UK.

I've got an enquiry in for one, waiting to hear back on lease price and confirmed delivery for a 30kWh Acenta. Will let you know.

cros13

I've heard back from a contact in Nissan and one of the dealers.

€3k bump in price for all models.

A 3 k increase isn't the way to encourage people to buy electric. I Feel after 5 years (in 2016) that at least the cost should be the same wi the 30 kWh battery.

samih

I reckon the increase is lots to do with the sliding Euro. New Leaf seemed pretty good value in Ireland compared to UK back in May when I ordered. But some extra margins are built in for the price as well "because a new product".

No because the U.S get an increase too but the big difference for us is tax that the Americans don't have to pay.

BoatMad

I think the 3k bump is crazy , cause the new battery as I was told is only available in the sVE and up models. So nissan seem to be suggesting that both batteries will be offered.

Add the bigger charger and the whole car is now getting very very expensive. It's nearly 10k more expensive then a similar sized small turbo diesel. You'd buy an awful lot of diesel for 10k

So much for batteries getting cheaper

Nissan are milking an early adopter market, knowing that those buying EVs arnt ordinary punters.

NCM NCA has nothing to do with it. , they are all just version of cathode doping in Lithium batteries. Tesla are moving to NCA to. ( more powerful,but less safe then NCM )

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No because the U.S get an increase too but the big difference for us is tax that the Americans don't have to pay.

Naw, it's just Nissan Ireland milking an early adopter market in my view. Nothing to do with tax

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Naw, it's just Nissan Ireland milking an early adopter market in my view. Nothing to do with tax

It's a lot to do with tax, we pay 23% VAT + VRT that Americans don't have to pay.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a lot to do with tax, we pay 23% VAT + VRT that Americans don't have to pay.

Fine , convert the additional adder and add in proportion VRT and vat. Deduct proportion of SEAI grant.

Still doesn't add up

It's a market pricing decision. Not tax

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I think the 3k bump is crazy , cause the new battery as I was told is only available in the sVE and up models. So nissan seem to be suggesting that both batteries will be offered.

Add the bigger charger and the whole car is now getting very very expensive. It's nearly 10k more expensive then a similar sized small turbo diesel. You'd buy an awful lot of diesel for 10k

I think there shouldn't have been a price increase due to the cost of batteries having falling in the last 5 years it should have more than cancelled out the Kwh increase.

The 30 Kwh will be available on the SV mid spec and the SVE high spec.

The Leaf isn't 10K more than the average hatch.

The Hyindai I30 1.6 Diesel Deluxe costs 23,495 and the Leaf SV 24,500

The I30 Automatic diesel costs 27,500.

The leaf has a lot of extras, such as remote activation of heat and ac, timer controlled also that's about 1200 Euro's extra if you were to include a parking heater to an ICE and you can't remote ac in an iCE. The Leaf also has all around view camera.

Sat nav is another 100-1200 Extra.

28,500 K in the Leaf gets you LED lights and the 6.6 kw charger, Sat nav, Heated seats, steering wheel, Remote activation and timer control of heat, ac, heated seats and steering wheel, Automatic ( not reall no gearbox) but if you were to add it to an ice that's 100-1200. Led lights 1200 1200 for the heater remote. 1200 for the sat nav.

So the leaf isn't that expensive compared to the diesel and it's much cheaper to run ! cost of the leaf over 20,000 Kms on night rate is about 190-200 Euro's the diesel 1300-1400. Service every 30,000 Diesel 15-20K, 120 motor tax on the EV, 200-250 on the diesel ?

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Fine , convert the additional adder and add in proportion VRT and vat. Deduct proportion of SEAI grant.

Still doesn't add up

It's a market pricing decision. Not tax

But you're not getting it, the U.S has to pay the additional charge also for the 30 kwh battery !

And in the E.U we pay far higher taxes than in the U.S on cars and most other things.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I think there shouldn't have been a price increase due to the cost of batteries having falling in the last 5 years it should have more than cancelled out the Kwh increase.

The 30 Kwh will be available on the SV mid spec and the SVE high spec.

The Leaf isn't 10K more than the average hatch.

The Hyindai I30 1.6 Diesel Deluxe costs 23,495 and the Leaf SV 24,500

The I30 Automatic diesel costs 27,500.

The leaf has a lot of extras, such as remote activation of heat and ac, timer controlled also that's about 1200 Euro's extra if you were to include a parking heater to an ICE and you can't remote ac in an iCE. The Leaf also has all around view camera.

Sat nav is another 100-1200 Extra.

28,500 K in the Leaf gets you LED lights and the 6.6 kw charger, Sat nav, Heated seats, steering wheel, Remote activation and timer control of heat, ac, heated seats and steering wheel, Automatic ( not reall no gearbox) but if you were to add it to an ice that's 100-1200. Led lights 1200 1200 for the heater remote. 1200 for the sat nav.

So the leaf isn't that expensive compared to the diesel and it's much cheaper to run ! cost of the leaf over 20,000 Kms on night rate is about 190-200 Euro's the diesel 1300-1400. Service every 30,000 Diesel 15-20K, 120 motor tax on the EV, 200-250 on the diesel ?

Your min maxing again

I can get a nice medium spec Peugeot 208 2016 1.6l turbo diesel 2016 model ( alloys heated this that and the other ) for 20k and that's list before any haggling

A 2016 leaf ( assuming no base price rises by the way ) after SEAI , SV with bigger charger , is 29k , I have seen no haggle room on leafs either. So there 9k straight away. , even if I save 3k a year in running costs ( a figure I don't beleive by the way ) , it will take me 3-4 years to see any nett gain and in the meantime , I have to live with the not inconsiderable range issues.

Add in the difference in PCP rates as Nissans very expensive and there's easily another 500-1000 in finance costs , there's your 10 without even trying , I bet I could even stretch it to 12k by min maxing myself

Let's not become fan boys devoid of logic here. Eyes wide open and all that