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Mediterranean migrants- specific questions

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    #182
    jadegreen
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭jadegreen


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Aside from the fact that people who aren't living in a war-torn country are less inclined to up sticks and risk their life trying to get into Europe, it ought to be fairly easy to identify if someone isn't from Syria as soon as they open their mouths and find they aren't speaking Syrian Arabic.

    The prospect of some non-refugees trying to take advantage of the crisis shouldn't put a bar on a humanitarian response. We know there's three-way war in Syria. We know tens of thousands of people are trying to flee the country. They aren't all disappearing into thin air.
    that man who's family and more infamously his 3 y.o. son was found dead on the beach was
    not fleeing Syria they had been living in Turkey for some time, there's no war there


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    #183
    surripere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭surripere


    Yep & the 17yo Iraqi who saw his father get shot in the head, as told to a naturally sympathetic Finnish PM, turn out to be some 21yo dude on the dodge around Europe, with a criminal past & a liking for taking pictures of himself with AK-47s


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    #184
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    That's what they're looking into at present:



    Something similar was done with the Bosnian and Kosovar refugees in the 1990s, where they created a reception centre in Cherry Orchard.

    Ah yes, the nurses home beside the hospital was used for nurses right up till then and was considered good enough for them but the whole place was gutted of every sink toilet bath and shower unit and all walls stripped and painted and the whole place was rewired and new plumbing and bathroom sets.

    Also all the beds chairs etc that were good enough for nurses were sent to the dump with everything else! they wouldn't even let the simon community or StVdeP have them!

    They did exactly the same with Spike Island when it was good enough for the Naval service but had to be gutted and refurbished for convicts.

    No wonder people don't trust anything about what is going on here!


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    #185
    jadegreen
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭jadegreen


    surripere wrote: »
    Yep & the 17yo Iraqi who saw his father get shot in the head, as told to a naturally sympathetic Finnish PM, turn out to be some 21yo dude on the dodge around Europe, with a criminal past & a liking for taking pictures of himself with AK-47s
    all the more reason to have them processed as they arrive, its too late after they have all dispersed, it only breeds suspicion and distrust. I cant decide the south of France looks nice i'll go there, without the proper paperwork how far would i get ? if you want to seek asylum etc, then abide by the laws of the country you are in yeah it might take a while but look around ya its rather a large number so be patient


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    #186
    jadegreen
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭jadegreen


    Nodin wrote: »
    We're taking Syrians, and those responsible were not Syrian. Secondly, why would you assume that everyone would be the same as those who carried out that crime?
    the same religion


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    #187
    jadegreen
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭jadegreen


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Ah yes, the nurses home beside the hospital was used for nurses right up till then and was considered good enough for them but the whole place was gutted of every sink toilet bath and shower unit and all walls stripped and painted and the whole place was rewired and new plumbing and bathroom sets.

    Also all the beds chairs etc that were good enough for nurses were sent to the dump with everything else! they wouldn't even let the simon community or StVdeP have them!

    They did exactly the same with Spike Island when it was good enough for the Naval service but had to be gutted and refurbished for convicts.

    No wonder people don't trust anything about what is going on here!
    these people have no respect, the amount of litter left in Budapest Station is horrendous as it is all through Hungary and on buses it should be easy find them just follow the trail of litter and broken stuff


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    #188
    jadegreen
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭jadegreen


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    There's no requirement that safety should be your only concern in order to qualify you as a genuine refugee. You can have as many worries and concerns as you like; if you have left your country because you have a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion then you are a refugee.

    As already pointed out, Jews fleeing Nazi Germany (when that was still possible) tried to go to France, the UK, the US other other countries that offered a good chance of settling and making a new life, rather than to Poland, Bulgaria, etc. If you apply your standards consistently,you would have sent them packing, since safety was not their only concern.

    (Of course, in many cases they were sent back, or denied entry in the first place, and we know what happened to them afterwards. The whole point of the Refugee Convention was to try and ensure that that wouldn't happen again in the future.)
    On the social networking site Facebook readers are boiling anger after migrants who arrived by bus to Austria amused themselves by throwing feces and mistreating Europeans at the Italian border, writes the Polish media.

    A famous Polish travel blogger and author, Kamil Bulonis, were on Saturday on a bus between Austria and Italy in which several immigrants from the Arab world also traveled. He described the scenes at the border as all-out chaos.
    who wants these people anyway, i dont


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    #189
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jadegreen wrote: »
    that man who's family and more infamously his 3 y.o. son was found dead on the beach was
    not fleeing Syria they had been living in Turkey for some time, there's no war there

    He's Kurdish. Turkey is not a good place to be Kurdish at the moment.
    jadegreen wrote:
    the same religion

    So if one Catholic does something, all catholics are guilty? Fascinating logic there.


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    #190
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    We have no way of knowing that the people Ireland and the rest of the EU are taking in are Syrian; that's the point. ...............

    So - just to be clear - nobody in Europe can tell an Arab from a sub-Saharan African, can tell a Syrian accent from another, has any knowledge of Syria as a country?


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    #191
    surripere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭surripere


    Nodin wrote: »
    He's Kurdish. Turkey is not a good place to be Kurdish at the moment.



    So if one Catholic does something, all catholics are guilty? Fascinating logic there.

    He was under no threat there, he risked his life & that of his family's to get his ****ing teeth fixed. It was an absolute disgrace the way the media played this & put the blame on us in Europe.


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    #192
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jadegreen wrote: »
    On the social networking site Facebook readers are boiling anger...

    ...and we all know how hard it is to make that happen.


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    #193
    FelineOverLord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭FelineOverLord


    surripere wrote: »
    He was under no threat there, he risked his life & that of his family's to get his ****ing teeth fixed. It was an absolute disgrace the way the media played this & put the blame on us in Europe.

    It's swings and roundabouts. For the time being the media will continue spoon feeding the message migrants/refugees good anyone who says otherwise is bad. When they get bored with that it'll swing back to realistic reporting of what's really going on.


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    #194
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    surripere wrote: »
    He was under no threat there, he risked his life & that of his family's to get his ****ing teeth fixed. It was an absolute disgrace the way the media played this & put the blame on us in Europe.

    He's a Kurd. Secondly there's no truth whatsoever in the "teeth" story.


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    #195
    surripere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭surripere


    Nodin wrote: »
    He's a Kurd. Secondly there's no truth whatsoever in the "teeth" story.

    Well why then did his sister say as much? Look the guy was looking for a better life, nobody can blame him for that, his loss is terrible, ive no idea of how bad he feels & I'm sorry for his loss. But why can't people see that Europe is encouraging these perilous crossings by accepting & rewarding people who make it, of these there is an endless stream, possibly billions certainly millions. What are current policy is doing is waving countless numbers of desperate & I must say seemingly not so desperate people in. It's a monumental folly, pure madness. What your seeing is only the tip of the iceberg.


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    #196
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,459 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    thedumbone wrote: »
    i will just leave it here

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/555434/Islamic-State-ISIS-Smuggler-THOUSANDS-Extremists-into-Europe-Refugees

    enjoy

    This is beneath the standard of discussion expected in this forum. Please read the charter before posting again.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #197
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    surripere wrote: »
    Well why then did his sister say as much? .....

    She didn't, and it takes a rather perverse misreading of the interview to take that out of it.


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    #198
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    surripere wrote: »
    He was under no threat there, he risked his life & that of his family's to get his ****ing teeth fixed. It was an absolute disgrace the way the media played this & put the blame on us in Europe.
    jadegreen wrote: »
    the same religion
    jadegreen wrote: »
    these people have no respect, the amount of litter left in Budapest Station is horrendous as it is all through Hungary and on buses it should be easy find them just follow the trail of litter and broken stuff

    Mod:

    Stop the lazy generalisations please. We expect a certain standard of posts here and the above doesn't meet it, thank you.

    Also general point, this forum isn't a news dump. Please post a bit about what an article says together with the link.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #199
    thedumbone
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭thedumbone


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    This is beneath the standard of discussion expected in this forum. Please read the charter before posting again.


    why is posting facts prohibited here?:confused:

    and I don't discuss, just informing people by linking news


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    #200
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    thedumbone wrote: »

    and I don't discuss, just informing people by linking news

    Because it is against the charter which all people are expected to abide by. Post a small summary and links are fine, don't and they'll be deleted, up to you.

    Anymore questions pm a mod, or there's a discussion of the rules thread on the main forum that is open to everybody.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #201
    dlouth15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭dlouth15


    surripere wrote: »
    Well why then did his sister say as much? Look the guy was looking for a better life, nobody can blame him for that, his loss is terrible, ive no idea of how bad he feels & I'm sorry for his loss. But why can't people see that Europe is encouraging these perilous crossings by accepting & rewarding people who make it, of these there is an endless stream, possibly billions certainly millions. What are current policy is doing is waving countless numbers of desperate & I must say seemingly not so desperate people in. It's a monumental folly, pure madness. What your seeing is only the tip of the iceberg.
    It is not really a policy but rather the lack of one. It just happened that in a relatively short space of time very large numbers started turning up in core European countries and systems had not been in place to deal with it.

    Within Europe comparatively little is in place to stop migrants from making their way from one country to another. In Schengen countries there are no patrolled borders. Even between Schengen and non-Schengen countries within the EU, border infrastructure is minimal. So if numbers are sufficient, borders can be overrun and there's not much that can be done about it.

    I suggested inn an earlier post that the system only works if the periphery is tightly controlled. But this is not the case with Greece on its knees economically.

    Germany is saying that they are going out of their way to help migrants but they are only helping the ones that made risky see or land crossings, paid bribes to corrupt officials and traffickers. There are now too many to send back under the Dublin regulation. And for possibly historical reasons Germany doesn't want to carry out mass deportations to the east.

    Therefore they have made it into a European problem. They are big enough within Europe that they can do this. Small peripheral countries can't.

    But I believe that none of this is based on humanitarian thinking. The only European leader doing that I think is Cameron. The 40,000 he has said will be taken directly from overcrowded camps surrounding the region of conflict.

    Our humanitarian response should be the same. We should take refugees from where they are most in need: camps in Jordan and Lebanon.


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    #202
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Aside from the fact that people who aren't living in a war-torn country are less inclined to up sticks and risk their life trying to get into Europe, it ought to be fairly easy to identify if someone isn't from Syria as soon as they open their mouths and find they aren't speaking Syrian Arabic.

    The prospect of some non-refugees trying to take advantage of the crisis shouldn't put a bar on a humanitarian response. We know there's three-way war in Syria. We know tens of thousands of people are trying to flee the country. They aren't all disappearing into thin air.

    Not true per say. Thousands of people in Asia in countries where there is no war going on, risk life and limb to try and get a better life for themselves, often with tragic ends.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-24/mass-graves-of-suspected-trafficking-victims-found-in-malaysia/6493400

    One can make the case for the Rohingyas but the rest are purely economic migrants who are sold fairy tales from would be traffickers. This is not new. Australia has been dealing with this issue for years.


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    #203
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    He's a Kurd.

    I hear this now and again, however being a Kurd in of itself in Turkey does not mean that you have the automatic right to be accepted as an Asylum Seeker.
    Kurds make up about 20% of Turkeys population, this is about 15 million people. I do not see 15 million Kurds trying to flee Turkey today.

    The man rolled the diced, by paying a human trafficker to bring him on boat across the med when he was under no immediate threat.

    He took a gamble like so many others and lost heavily. Unfortunately, his son didn't get a say. The man and others can blame the EU or the West or whomever he wishes but ultimately they did not pay criminals for a service that cost this man his family.


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    #204
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    I hear this now and again, however being a Kurd in of itself in Turkey does not mean that you have the automatic right to be accepted as an Asylum Seeker.
    Kurds make up about 20% of Turkeys population, this is about 15 million people. I do not see 15 million Kurds trying to flee Turkey today.

    The man rolled the diced, by paying a human trafficker to bring him on boat across the med when he was under no immediate threat.

    He took a gamble like so many others and lost heavily. Unfortunately, his son didn't get a say. The man and others can blame the EU or the West or whomever he wishes but ultimately they did not pay criminals for a service that cost this man his family.


    I'm unaware of him doing so.


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    #205
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm unaware of him doing so.

    Well certainly people have more apportioned blame to the EU rather then this salient fact.


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    #206
    surripere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭surripere


    The EU & in particular Germany are very much to blame for this sorry mess. Without the incentive of a guaranteed life in Europe many of these people wouldn't risk their life's making these perilous crossings.


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    #207
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    surripere wrote: »
    The EU & in particular Germany are very much to blame for this sorry mess. Without the incentive of a guaranteed life in Europe many of these people wouldn't risk their life's making these perilous crossings.


    They were making this trip before Ms Merkel made her announcement. The sheer numbers seem to have forced the EU's hand.


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    #208
    surripere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭surripere


    Nodin wrote: »
    They were making this trip before Ms Merkel made her announcement. The sheer numbers seem to have forced the EU's hand.

    Yes I'm well aware of that fact. What's your point?


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    #209
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    Nodin wrote: »
    They were making this trip before Ms Merkel made her announcement. The sheer numbers seem to have forced the EU's hand.

    yes, and eu europe and especially germany have been attractive destinations for refugees and economic migrants for decades, since long before merkel even came to office…the current german "migrants are welcome" hysteria merely adds to it…


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    #210
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    surripere wrote: »
    Yes I'm well aware of that fact. What's your point?


    Well you can't blame the EU and Germany for "this sorry mess" if the sorry mess was happening before Merkels offer to take them in.


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    #211
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Nodin wrote: »
    They were making this trip before Ms Merkel made her announcement. The sheer numbers seem to have forced the EU's hand.

    I think it's fair to say though that Germany's stance will not halt this influx, on the contrary.

    I saw a small part of Juncker's State of the European Union today (dude spoke for 72 mins, seriously...)

    He made some decent points (asylum seekers should be able to work from day 1, migration should be completely legal with the benefit of cutting out human traffickers for large parts, strengthening Frontex,... but I can't see many countries agree to forced quotas.

    That and the fact he seems eager to push TTIP through :)


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