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Mediterranean migrants- specific questions
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On the one hand, I sympathise with people being interrogated for their motivations in a second (or even third/fourth) language on complex topics where there is often no simple answer. On the other hand, people are not fleeing from Denmark to Sweden for fear of their lives or persecution.0
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To those wanting refugees in, a few simple questions need to be asked.
- Do people accept that there is a certain limited number of refugees that any country can take in?
- If Yes is the answer, do you just let all the other refugees locked out, thereby rewarding those who moved early?
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Not necessarily as they vary a fair amount...And yet, listening to the media nowadays, you'd think all the Syrians are frothing bigots, desperate to impose Sharia law.
This is my key criticism of your stated view. On the one hand you stress the differences between various Arabic peoples (who you point out are often not actually Arabic at all) and states and criticise others for not appreciating the distinct cultural and political differences. On the other hand, you presume that they are just like us and will blend seamlessly into western European society with no issues or challenges whatsoever.
You cant have your cake and eat it.There are still the organised religious right in the US seeking to dismantle LGBT rights and abortion law while far right groups get elected in Europe.
Yes, through elections rather than armed attacks, throwing homosexuals of high rises and cutting the heads of unbelievers.
The western variety of religious fanatic is Mr Bean compared to the religious fanatics on tour in Arabic states. The western religious fanatic is often so tame as to be invited onto TV shows to play the part of a laughable and ridiculous maniac. They in no way form a serious threat to the existence of any western state or constitution in the way the various fanatical terrorist organisations do in Arab states.Hell, it was only a few generations ago that tolerant European democracies turned to outright fascism and imperialism. We're just as susceptible to this as they are.
As humans in general, yes. As Europeans (and Germans in particular) who have the lesson of "never again" drummed into them from the age of about 3 or 4, no, we're not. Europe was "the dark continent" where literally tens of millions died for little more than jingoism and bull****. Within living memory. Deaths as useless and pointless as those Frenchmen they dug up recently in Frankfurt who were part of Napoleons grand army invading Russia for reasons no one can quite recall. Those same lessons were not learnt or taught in other regions. Indeed, since WW2, most of western society has been affected by the resulting deep cynicism and lack of confidence so that it is broadly accepted that war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength.
The rest of the world is not as cynical as we are.Yeah, it's not like Germans ever had to take in huge numbers of people with a completely different political and cultural system and were raised under totalitarianism rather than tolerant democracy.
Ah wait...
There is still a distinct cultural divide between east and west German that is only slowly being closed. And that being based on a common cultural root, common political and social history where the existence of an East and West Germany formed a temporary 45 year blip, rejected by both sides as a temporary arrangement. The extent of the divide between Syria and Frankfurt is a little more deep than the divide between Frankfurt and east Berlin.0 -
Wait, where did I say Arabic peoples are often not Arabic?This is my key criticism of your stated view. On the one hand you stress the differences between various Arabic peoples (who you point out are often not actually Arabic at all)
I said there are numerous cultural differences between the Arabic peoples. This does not preclude them from functioning within Western society merely due to different cultures.and states and criticise others for not appreciating the distinct cultural and political differences. On the other hand, you presume that they are just like us and will blend seamlessly into western European society with no issues or challenges whatsoever.
You cant have your cake and eat it.
Textbook example of false dichotomy right there.
Not always. The militia movements and domestic white terrorists are a good example.Yes, through elections rather than armed attacks, throwing homosexuals of high rises and cutting the heads of unbelievers.
Arabs aren't any more evil or fanatical than Westerners. We have plenty of them here. Luckily, our states are far more capable of preventing such groups from gaining traction.The western variety of religious fanatic is Mr Bean compared to the religious fanatics on tour in Arabic states. The western religious fanatic is often so tame as to be invited onto TV shows to play the part of a laughable and ridiculous maniac. They in no way form a serious threat to the existence of any western state or constitution in the way the various fanatical terrorist organisations do in Arab states.
It was only right after World War I that groups like the League of Nations were set up and the widely signed Kellog-Briand Pact abolished war as a tool of foreign policy to ensure events like World War I never happened again. Unfortunately, it was only a couple of decades later that this proved to be false. We'd do well not to be so complacent, especially when war is currently raging in Ukraine and and within living memory, genocide was being waged within Europe's borders.As humans in general, yes. As Europeans (and Germans in particular) who have the lesson of "never again" drummed into them from the age of about 3 or 4, no, we're not. Europe was "the dark continent" where literally tens of millions died for little more than jingoism and bull****. Within living memory. Deaths as useless and pointless as those Frenchmen they dug up recently in Frankfurt who were part of Napoleons grand army invading Russia for reasons no one can quite recall. Those same lessons were not learnt or taught in other regions. Indeed, since WW2, most of western society has been affected by the resulting deep cynicism and lack of confidence so that it is broadly accepted that war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength.
The rest of the world is not as cynical as we are.
You're a lot more idealistic and optimistic than I am it seems.
It's more than a mere 45 year blip: Each successive generation of East Germans had to grow up with increasingly distance memories of living under democracy. Germany had essentially undergone a year zero approach to political institutions repeatedly so multiple generations of Germans grew up under entirely different systems. This was particularly the case with East Germans who were taught a very different version of history and German identity than that of West Germans.There is still a distinct cultural divide between east and west German that is only slowly being closed. And that being based on a common cultural root, common political and social history where the existence of an East and West Germany formed a temporary 45 year blip, rejected by both sides as a temporary arrangement. The extent of the divide between Syria and Frankfurt is a little more deep than the divide between Frankfurt and east Berlin.
There is indeed a large cultural divide between East and West Germans (which is still visible nowadays) but this did not prevent Germany from emerging as a powerful and democratic country. If they can integrate millions of East Germans and their decrepit economy, I dare say they can manage a few hundred thousand Syrians.
If they can manage0 -
This is my key criticism of your stated view. On the one hand you stress the differences between various Arabic peoples (who you point out are often not actually Arabic at all) and states and criticise others for not appreciating the distinct cultural and political differences. On the other hand, you presume that they are just like us and will blend seamlessly into western European society with no issues or challenges whatsoever.
You cant have your cake and eat it.
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..akin to saying that French and Germans are distinct from each other and thus can never integrate into any other culture.
I'm unaware of anyone stating that issues would not arise. There is a tone amongst some that would indicate the Apocalypse has arrived - whatever difficulties might occur, this is not the case.0 -
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Just read another young child washed up on a Turkish beach.
Why no photos and uproar over this one? Have people forgotten already?0 -
To those wanting refugees in, a few simple questions need to be asked.
- Do people accept that there is a certain limited number of refugees that any country can take in?
- If Yes is the answer, do you just let all the other refugees locked out, thereby rewarding those who moved early?
As the Kerryman said, if I was you I wouldn't start from here. This is a bit like the Irish financial crisis, the iceberg was ahead and nothing was done until the last moment At that point neither swerving left or swerving right leads to a good outcome, but there is endless argument about which way to go.
The European governments, aided by US, Canada, Japan etc, should have acted in good time- funding decent temporary accommodation in neighbouring countries
- giving funding to neighbouring countries for costs re health etc.
- setting up a process there to review cases
- offering 3 year visas or the like to employable people, fly these to Europe
- ditto for family reunions etc
- making clear that anyone refused in this process will not be entertained turning up in person, but will be returned to neighbouring country who will take them owing to having been helped with 1) and 2).
None of this was done. But this cannot go on, so it will be a case of first come first served. Hopefully, a process like the above will be designed for the future, but like the Irish financial crisis I wouldn't hold my breath.0 -
Just read another young child washed up on a Turkish beach.
Why no photos and uproar over this one? Have people forgotten already?
One death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic.
People didn't care about the war in Syria until they saw the photo of the drowned boy, and are now are, to greater or lesser degrees, willing to accept unlimited numbers of migrants in Europe (of whom only around 30% are Syrian apparently). Meanwhile you have the Western powers still wanting to fight a proxy war against Assad; an alliance between the emperor of Europe, Merkyl (who is threatening to punish the vassal states of Europe if they don't accept her commands) and the US government: both of whom see Iran and Russia as the only real threats in the geo-political sphere. Both of whom are genuinely a threat: with Merkyl disestablishing Europe (possibly for generations) and Obama in the Middle East (by ramping up his rhetoric against Assad in the face of Russian buildup).
The non-German European leaders are at each others' throats, with a mixture of attempting to rescue every migrant who steps foot in a boat, to establishing barbed wire fences, and everything in between.
I have never seen such a catastrophically idiotic response to any crisis - perhaps one would have to look as far back as 1914 to see such reckless, shortsightedness on the part of political "leaders".0 -
30%? Source?RandomName2 wrote: »People didn't care about the war in Syria until they saw the photo of the drowned boy, and are now are, to greater or lesser degrees, willing to accept unlimited numbers of migrants in Europe (of whom only around 30% are Syrian apparently).0 -
Mod:
The tone of the thread is getting a bit liveliney, if people want to make huge generalisations about refugees, this isn't the forum for it.
Also, keep it on topic please. Secret plans is more for conspiracy theory. Also, debate the point at hand, do not bring up other political leanings. There's plenty to debate without bringing other political stuff into it.
It's hard to get away from this unfortunately. For example, the BBC's news mainpage shows a kid crawling in front of a large number of police.
If you go to RTE's page it's the same.
NBC and CNN will show crying babies and screaming mothers.
Meanwhile there's a story showing how nasty a Hungarian mayor is being towards migrants.
Now, the UN states 72% of the migrants are men. Why are nearly three quarters of the photos we see not of men?
If you think I'm being over the top...please visit the pages of the media and see for yourself.....
So when we are talking about generalisations....and conspiracy...What the hell is going on with the portrayal of migrants and European nations that protect their borders?
There are many real refugees who should be getting treated fairly and helped out.....but it is hard to actually hard to find this out as all of these people are claiming they are refugees.0 -
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How can anyone know the true number of Syrians if everyone is self identifying as Syrian?0
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It's hard to get away from this unfortunately. For example, the BBC's news mainpage shows a kid crawling in front of a large number of police.
If you go to RTE's page it's the same.
NBC and CNN will show crying babies and screaming mothers.
Meanwhile there's a story showing how nasty a Hungarian mayor is being towards migrants.
Now, the UN states 72% of the migrants are men. Why are nearly three quarters of the photos we see not of men?
If you think I'm being over the top...please visit the pages of the media and see for yourself.....
So when we are talking about generalisations....and conspiracy...What the hell is going on with the portrayal of migrants and European nations that protect their borders?
There are many real refugees who should be getting treated fairly and helped out.....but it is hard to actually hard to find this out as all of these people are claiming they are refugees.
Just seen that on the bbc site, someone has actually put a baby down to crawl in front of the police line and grabs a photo, sickening.0 -
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Are they? If this was the case, surely the figure would be much higher than 51%
There don't seem to be m/any reliable figures at all a far as I can see. This makes sense: virtually none of the people claiming asylum have been processed. It doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to come to the conclusion that Syrian is the largest denomination of people attempting to enter through Hungry, but represents very little (if any) of those attempting to enter through Italy.
I read a paper (Independent?) which quoted circa 30% as the number which represented the number of migrants who were Syrians; but different papers are coming up with different numbers. Guardian is saying > 50%. The Mirror (particularly vaguely) says 24%. Others, like the Economist looks at recognition rates (where Syrian is >90%), while many other media sources are looking at figures from 2014 (which vary widely in what they regard as refugees: with Russia counting as the second largest source of refugees in a number of publications, while others, like Handlesblatt, ignore Russia altogether).
There are definitely people entering Europe from Syra - and these are almost certainly refugees: although whether settling them in the EU is the best idea is seriously questionable. Afghanistan, Eritrea, Libya, Somalia, Iraq are also large contributors, while some of the migrants are also certainly coming from places such as Nigeria, Senegal, Pakistan, etc.
The EU governments have made a pledge to pick up any migrant attempting to cross the Mediterranean, while governments such as Germany have made no public distinction concerning country of origin. Therefore, presumably, it's pretty much open season.0 -
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It's hard to get away from this unfortunately. For example, the BBC's news mainpage shows a kid crawling in front of a large number of police.
If you go to RTE's page it's the same.
NBC and CNN will show crying babies and screaming mothers.
Meanwhile there's a story showing how nasty a Hungarian mayor is being towards migrants.
Now, the UN states 72% of the migrants are men. Why are nearly three quarters of the photos we see not of men?
If you think I'm being over the top...please visit the pages of the media and see for yourself.....
So when we are talking about generalisations....and conspiracy...What the hell is going on with the portrayal of migrants and European nations that protect their borders?
There are many real refugees who should be getting treated fairly and helped out.....but it is hard to actually hard to find this out as all of these people are claiming they are refugees.
That's all fair enough, but that's different to some of the stuff posted about them all being welfare spongers, NWO type conspiraciy theories or posting narratives of them being violent, filthy thugs.
This is a serious political discussion forum and stuff like that isn't entertained for good reasons. Civil, reasoned, well argued debate is always welcome.
There's a discussion on the rules thread on the main politics general forum for queries on rules and feedback.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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That's all fair enough, but that's different to some of the stuff posted about them all being welfare spongers, NWO type conspiraciy theories or posting narratives of them being violent, filthy thugs.
This is a serious political discussion forum and stuff like that isn't entertained for good reasons. Civil, reasoned, well argued debate is always welcome.
There's a discussion on the rules thread on the main politics general forum for queries on rules and feedback.
I accept your point, but if someone said 'they are all genuine refugees', this comment would go unchecked (rightly so), but it does lead to bias in favour of the pro refugee comments.0 -
I accept your point, but if someone said 'they are all genuine refugees', this comment would go unchecked (rightly so), but it does lead to bias in favour of the pro refugee comments.
It wouldn't go unchecked because the users would challenge it, plus a comment like that is a bit naive, but not mod actionable.
That's totally different from stuff bordering on hate speech, calling them welfare spongers, showing them as violent, filthy animals etc.
That isn't allowed on this forum and is more at home in storm front type sites.
That's an important distinction, a small minority of people might fail to comprehend that, but our job as mods isn't to educate people on why that stuff is objectionable, it's to stop that stuff from ruining decent debate, which for the most part this thread has had.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Some so called "right wing" politicians and activists object to Muslim migrants entering their respective countries on the grounds that they want to preserve the Christian heritage of Europe. As a Christian, I find that attitude to be both sad and bewildering. Is Christianity merely part of Europe`s heritage now and not a living religion? If it is a living religion then surely the Christian thing to do is to allow all those who want to come to Europe to enter freely, unimpeded and given all assistance they need to get on their feet and become fully participating members of society.
True right wingers favour the rapid assimilation of migrants and where the migrants are unskilled, uneducated and unable to speak the language they can be employed in areas where these proficiencies are not necessary. Also, by abolishing the minimum wage (which is a very bad idea anyway) the migrants and low skilled Irish can be employed at salaries which are low enough to make Ireland competitive enough to grow its economy without borrowing billions of euro every year.0 -
It wouldn't go unchecked because the users would challenge it, plus a comment like that is a bit naive, but not mod actionable.
That's totally different from stuff bordering on hate speech, calling them welfare spongers, showing them as violent, filthy animals etc.
That isn't allowed on this forum and is more at home in storm front type sites.
That's an important distinction, a small minority of people might fail to comprehend that, but our job as mods isn't to educate people on why that stuff is objectionable, it's to stop that stuff from ruining decent debate, which for the most part this thread has had.
Point accepted, not that I was ever challenging your position. But there are a few things I have a problem with, e.g.- What's wrong with welfare spongers/economic migrants?
(for the purists: no proof/links etc for above claim).0 -
Point accepted, not that I was ever challenging your position. But there are a few things I have a problem with, e.g.
- What's wrong with welfare spongers/economic migrants?
(for the purists: no proof/links etc for above claim).
Again, that isn't the point. Welfare tourism exists and nobody will be banned for mentioning it. Saying stuff like its the real reason they are here, at least he's honest, as happened previously is a gross generalisation.
As said before, we expect a certain level of discussion here, civil, relatively respectful and some type of substance to it. That isn't everybody's cup of tea and that's fine, people will have to find somewhere else to post like that, and again that's fine.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Yes, and Germany managed to integrate them fairly well. And that was assimilating 15 million less people of what Germany is proposing to welcome now, as well as the GDR's decripit economy and social system.
Having a common language is about the only thing they shared. Are you honestly trying to argue that they had a common culture after decades living in completely polarised systems (And that's apart from the fact that both the GDR and the FRG were effectively built from ground zero in the aftermath of WWII)
They also shared a common heritage, religion, history and ethnicity which was important. I dare to suggest if they tried to assimilate 15 million Syrians (for the sake of argument) then the outcomes would have much different.0 -
When East and West Germany were founded, there were still Germans who had lived longer than the formation of a German state. Germany is still a very new country, at the time, I'm not sure how pervasive the idea of a common heritage was.They also shared a common heritage
Really? After decades of communism, even contemporary Eastern Germany has a majority of atheists compared to just to just 10% in the West.religion
Generations of East Germans were raised being taught a completely different form of history than their West German counterparts. They managed.history
I'm not sure why people make such a big deal about ethnicity as a factor in assimilation. You only need to look at the Arabs or the Slavs to see how people of the same ethnicity can be so categorically different from one another.ethnicity which was important.
It's quite fascinating but also depressing watching educated, literate people from the West discussing Syrians as if they're from Mars or something.
Possibly but we're not discussing assimilating 15 million Syrians. We're talking about a fraction of that.Idare to suggest if they tried to assimilate 15 million Syrians (for the sake of argument) then the outcomes would have much different.0 -
jackofalltrades wrote: »So only 21% of first time asylum applicants from Q2 2014 to Q2 2015 into the EU were Syrian.
That's only going up as far as June: numbers have risen a lot since then, particularly sea crossings in August , particualrly given the exponential growth in Syrian refugees.
According to Frontex, Syrians constitute 42% of those making illegal border crossings alone in 2015.0 -
The UN says 51% are Syrian at present.
how did the un come up with that number? does that include migrants with fake syrian passports? what about those with no papers at all? did they just ask arriving migrants where they are from? clearly, migrants will want to be syrian right now…0 -
Point accepted, not that I was ever challenging your position. But there are a few things I have a problem with, e.g.
- What's wrong with welfare spongers/economic migrants?
(for the purists: no proof/links etc for above claim).
There does seem to be a common misconception that Syrians are desperate to come here and claim social welfare.
There's very little evidence for this: before its civil war, Syria was a middle income country with a literate population. There was never this sort of migration crisis from Syria before (to my knowledge)
As such, it is a large stretch to think that Syrians are suddenly deciding they want to move to Europe and sit on the dole, ignoring that their country has collapsed and over half of the population is either internally displaced within their failed state or else stuck in places like Turkey and Lebanon where they're unable to claim asylum or provide for themselves.0 -
Wurzelbert wrote: »how did the un come up with that number? does that include migrants with fake syrian passports? what about those with no papers at all? did they just ask arriving migrants where they are from? clearly, migrants will want to be syrian right now…
It's the UN High Commissioner for Refugees' office. I'm not an expert on refugee law but to be fair, they'd be one of the best placed to determine these things, given it's an area they've been working on for decades.
If it was simply a case of claiming to be Syrian, do you not think the numbers would be far higher than 51%? Particularly given 95% of Syrian refugee asylum claims are succesfull?0 -
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There does seem to be a common misconception that Syrians are desperate to come here and claim social welfare.
There's very little evidence for this: before its civil war, Syria was a middle income country with a literate population. There was never this sort of migration crisis from Syria before (to my knowledge)
As such, it is a large stretch to think that Syrians are suddenly deciding they want to move to Europe and sit on the dole, ignoring that their country has collapsed and over half of the population is either internally displaced within their failed state or else stuck in places like Turkey and Lebanon where they're unable to claim asylum or provide for themselves.
The real question isn't: why are Syrians coming to Europe?
It's: why now?
The Syrian Civil War is into fourth year, but only now has the trickle of refugees into Europe become a flood. Yet, there haven't been any major changes in the frontlines, or tactics employed by any side in the conflict in the last year.
Some of the refugees are presumably rebels who have fallen foul of recent government advances (the crowd videoed chanting Allahu Akbar and anti Assad soundbites would probably fit into this category); but this can't be predominantly the case.
So what is it? Is Turkey giving refugees the boot? Is the inability of the EU to deal with migrants from Africa providing encouragement to refugees to find better places to stay outside of Lebanon, Turkey, etc? Is there some other possibility?0
This discussion has been closed.
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