Hawker Hunter crash at Shoreham

Thargor

Thargor wrote: »

Sad to hear, a few weeks ago I was early coming back from Dublin on the DART before the Bray airshow so I hopped out at Kiliney and walked along the shore towards Bray to kill an hour or 2, at the cliffs around Shankhill he came screaming over my head nearly painfully loud and shotover the water south towards Bray, one of the best things Id ever seen, the roar out of that engine was like nothing else.

Nearly certain it's not the same aircraft.

EchoIndia

Deleted User wrote: »

Nearly certain it's not the same aircraft.

It is the same aircraft as displayed at Bray last month.

Tiercel Dave

Deleted User wrote: »

Nearly certain it's not the same aircraft.

Yep, was the same aircraft.

http://clareherald.com/2015/08/sussex-crash-jet-flew-in-shannon-last-month-18063/

Larbre34

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nearly certain it's not the same aircraft.

Aye, that much is confirmed.

A terrible summer for leisure aviation in the UK. Though how a display flightline with complex moves in aging aircraft can take place traversing an active road is beyond me.

PinOnTheRight

Larbre34 wrote: »

Aye, that much is confirmed.

A terrible summer for leisure aviation in the UK. Though how a display flightline with complex moves in aging aircraft can take place traversing an active road is beyond me.

Airfields tend to be surrounded by active roads.

Negative_G

arubex wrote: »

Why are airshows different? Why are aviation authorities so concerned about how private individuals wish to spend their weekend that they have to interfere? if the aircraft is airworthy and the pilot's display has been approved, that should be the end of it.

As you are well aware, many of the maneouvres performed at an airshow involve aircraft operating at or toward the edge of their performance or capabilities. This increases risk immensely over standard aircraft movements.

I would argue that aviation authorities are keen to prevent any loss of life or collateral damage in the event of an incident or accident. Which I would think is a fair assumption.

In all honesty, if, god forbid, a close friend or family member was killed or injured during a display which could be attributed to poor planning or a rogue pilot who deliberately disobeyed safety regulations to appease the crowd, would you be happy to accept it and move on?

Airworthy aircraft or display approval cannot account for error in judgement or technical malfunctions.

Sorry my bad, I thought it was the brightly coloured Hunter that flew at Bray. Apologies.

Anyway it was a BA commercial pilot that was flying yesterday.

Sterling Archer

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1a1_1440280355

rebel girl 15

Death toll up to 11 according to a number of sources - I was down at the Bournemouth Air Show yesterday, mentioned it to parents I was at one, phone went dead while I was down there. Cue a load of messages when I got home at 9pm last night after hearing about Shoreham. Red Arrows and Vulcan were amazing!

Irish Steve

Some very specific videos have now started to be shown in the media, and on line, and clearly something went badly wrong during the loop. The approach to the airfield was made from the North, along the Arun Valley, which cuts through the high ground that is a real factor to the north of the airfield.

From the videos, for some reason, the aircraft appears to have pulled up into the loop before coming into the airfield boundary, and (more significantly) there was a clear change in direction while on the top of the loop, which resulted in a noticeable change of heading while inverted, and the top of the loop seems to have been "vague" in terms of the control.

The descent from the loop was back towards the airfield but offset from the display line, and partly over some of the high ground to the north.

I did my twin training at Shoreham, and a very early warning to me from the very experienced CFI that I was flying with was "to treat the high ground to the North with great respect, as it could generate down draughts and other strong wind disturbances on the base and final sectors of the circuit".

He was right, on a couple of occasions, relatively close to the ground, I had moments where being aware of that warning was the difference between a timely response or a brown trouser moment.

The wind in Shoreham yesterday was Easterly, so there would have been potential for down draughts and tail winds during the descent from the loop, which would not have been helpful to the pull out. That may not be the reason for the accident, the media are now starting to suggest all sorts of possibilities, like a momentary black out at the top of the loop, which is not impossible.

Either way, now that more specific video is coming out, there are for sure some very strange aspects to what has happened at Shoreham, the AAIB are going to have a lot of work to do to work out what's happened.

DOCARCH

Jeez....looks like death toll could reach 20. Such a tragedy.

homerjay2005

Plane must have come to rest on top of a car for them to expect more bodies.

Very very tragic.

Storm 10

Whatever people may say this is going to have implications for Air Shows, it could be a major problem for Bray given that the Town is right on the seafront with a lot of housing and hotels close by, in Salthill it was not too bad as you had two hotels and no densely populated housing on the sea front and of course no Bray Head, it will also impact on inland air shows that are close to built up areas and motorways. There is going to be a knee jerk reaction to this that could be over the top in trying to protect people etc.

PukkaStukka

Irish Steve wrote: »

Some very specific videos have now started to be shown in the media, and on line, and clearly something went badly wrong during the loop. The approach to the airfield was made from the North, along the Arun Valley, which cuts through the high ground that is a real factor to the north of the airfield.

From the videos, for some reason, the aircraft appears to have pulled up into the loop before coming into the airfield boundary, and (more significantly) there was a clear change in direction while on the top of the loop, which resulted in a noticeable change of heading while inverted, and the top of the loop seems to have been "vague" in terms of the control.

The descent from the loop was back towards the airfield but offset from the display line, and partly over some of the high ground to the north.

I did my twin training at Shoreham, and a very early warning to me from the very experienced CFI that I was flying with was "to treat the high ground to the North with great respect, as it could generate down draughts and other strong wind disturbances on the base and final sectors of the circuit".

He was right, on a couple of occasions, relatively close to the ground, I had moments where being aware of that warning was the difference between a timely response or a brown trouser moment.

The wind in Shoreham yesterday was Easterly, so there would have been potential for down draughts and tail winds during the descent from the loop, which would not have been helpful to the pull out. That may not be the reason for the accident, the media are now starting to suggest all sorts of possibilities, like a momentary black out at the top of the loop, which is not impossible.

Either way, now that more specific video is coming out, there are for sure some very strange aspects to what has happened at Shoreham, the AAIB are going to have a lot of work to do to work out what's happened.

A still photo shown on Sky News yesterday moments before impact shows the aircraft almost level around ~ 50ft above the ground with what looks like fluid or vapour exiting from under the right wing.

Irrespective of the cause, it's a horrible black day for all involved.

EDIT: Found the photo online, it looks like fluid is falling from the pod on the right wing

Storm 10

Looking at that photo you would think he would have been able to regain control and climb away from the road as he has a slight nose up look.

homerjay2005

Storm 10 wrote: »

Whatever people may say this is going to have implications for Air Shows, it could be a major problem for Bray given that the Town is right on the seafront with a lot of housing and hotels close by, in Salthill it was not too bad as you had two hotels and no densely populated housing on the sea front and of course no Bray Head, it will also impact on inland air shows that are close to built up areas and motorways. There is going to be a knee jerk reaction to this that could be over the top in trying to protect people etc.

would think Bray above anybody else would be the safest around considering everything takes place over water.

EchoIndia

Storm 10 wrote: »

Looking at that photo you would think he would have been able to regain control and climb away from the road as he has a slight nose up look.

But if you watch the videos you will see that the aircraft was coming downwards at a rapid rate also. It was too low at that point to overcome that and establish a positive rate of climb.

vulcan57

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

RIP to all those involved.

It's happening all to much, I think it's time to have air shows either over the sea or in unpopulated areas, far too much risk people doing a stunt show directly over the general public.

If you think that the last member of the public to be killed at a UK air show was in 1952, and that's according to the British Air Display Association, then it is not happening all too much. Granted there have been accidents and there will continue to be, but these pilots are skilled aviators and in the most part air shows are safe for the public. Putting them out over the sea or in un-populated areas isn't going to stop accidents or increase the safety to the public. I hasten to add that the unfortunate incident at Shoreham was tragic and I am not for one minute trying take away from the seriousness of this particular incident.

Aerohead

Its started

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&mode=detail&nid=2479

Larbre34

Aerohead wrote: »

Its started

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34044383

Hard not to expect this reaction to such a high level of loss of life.

After everything has been thrashed out in the aftermath, maybe sense will prevail, i.e. to restrict such displays to the confines of large air bases, and not relatively small airfields like Shoreham, or indeed off-shore displays like Bray.

The vintage nature of the aircraft isn't the key point here. We don't know what failed yet, but the Red Arrows Hawks could fail, or collide and you would end up with a similar aftermath. Is anyone in aviation going to restrict the operation in the UK of the Red Arrows? Because by this logic, they should.

Razor44

I see the CAA have grounded all hawker hunters while the investigation takes place.

Irish Steve

To try and pick up one point, I don't think they are expecting a vehicle under the Hunter, the problem is that there were a significant number of spectators in the area where it came down, due to the proximity to the flight line. Some of them were looking for good vantage points for photos or filming, and some may have been seeking to avoid the entry ticket price, so were in a location where they would see the action for free. The other aspect is that the point where it came down was also on the only major access into and out of the airfield, there is no other easy access to the airfield, there is one low bridge under the railway to the south, but it is only usable by cars, vans or any larger vehicle won't fit. That was a major problem on Saturday immediately after the crash, there was no easy way to get over 20,000 people out of the airfield.

There is an unfortunate need to be seen to do something, so the restrictions on the Hunters is understandable, and the high energy flying ban, while unfortunate for the remaining displays this season (like Portrush) is also understandable, hopefully, the AAIB will be able to put some shape on the causes of this crash relatively quickly, and the most severe aspects can be rescinded.

jasT1981

Portrush (as well as Bray and Newcastle) should not be overly affected IMO as the regulations on high energy displays are only when over land. The Portrush airshow (like the other 2) takes place over the sea so will not be bound by the new regulations... or at least that is how it seems going by the statement.

Storm 10

I read somwhere that there is a pub beside the traffic lights and there was a group of people standing there with some marshalls and that appears to be the worry at this point

A Dub in Glasgo

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/08/24/14/2B9F8B4000000578-3208234-image-a-121_1440421607560.jpg

Negative_G

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/08/24/14/2B9F8B4000000578-3208234-image-a-121_1440421607560.jpg

Tragic. There appears to be someone just to the left of the red circle in the image you posted also if you zoom in enough.

Storm 10

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/08/24/14/2B9F8B4000000578-3208234-image-a-121_1440421607560.jpg

Good God that looks horrific for those people

homerjay2005

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would think Bray above anybody else would be the safest around considering everything takes place over water.

Yes but also note there is always a reasonable amount of people in boats on the water just outside the display line as well. It is safer but it's not 100% safe for spectators.

Shoreham is a very strange place to have a display, terrain to the north, housing East and west but sea to the south and not that far away, I'm assuming they wanted some cash coming in so wanted it on the airfield but honestly the only real display line I can see would be down 02/20 but that still involves crossing that road.

I'm sure it's been held here numerous times before without incident and this is just one of those terrible terrible accidents that happen. RIP to all those killed and quick recoveries to those in hospital.

I've seen other photos and that Dailymail shot with the Merc A class and Astra in it they are parked up in the central median in one piece, lucky for them. Unfortunately that means the Hunter is going towards that group in that shot.

Growler!!!

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen other photos and that Dailymail shot with the Merc A class and Astra in it they are parked up in the central median in one piece, lucky for them. Unfortunately that means the Hunter is going towards that group in that shot.

There's a later photo showing the junction and a fire services vehicle. Unfortunately there are a number of objects covered in blue tarps in the upper left corner. It appears to be where those people were standing. RIP.