Is the Western World anti-man?

hatrickpatrick

Kev W wrote: »

Actually the Gamergate narrative began with a woman being criticised by a bitter ex for sleeping with a man. Not sleeping around or cheating. The fuss arose from the implication that she did so to get a favourable review for her indie game, despite the guy she slept with never writing any such review. In fact the site he wrote for never published a review of the game in question at all. Also there wouldn't be that much to be gained from the review since the game was free anyway.

So technically she was "not-becoming-a-sexual-hermit-after-a-breakup" - shamed.

This is different to what I heard - I thought the allegation was that when she slept with the journalist, she had still been in a relationship with the guy who made the claim, thereby cheating on him.

I must read up on it a bit more - the beginnings of it were quickly obscured by the sh!tstorm which followed.

And I'll take the unpopular view that that sh!tstorm needed to happen. Behind all the sensationalism, all the idiots making death threats and other rightly calling them out on it, all the sensational stuff, is a very basic cultural battle going on at the moment, wherein some people are sick of "good" and "bad" entertainment (games, movies, whatever) being defined on politically correct box-ticking rather than good gameplay / good storylines. Same with music - it's no longer relevant if a song is catchy, what's more important is if its lyrical content is offensive or its music video NSFW, to many mainstream news sources and reviewers.

That is something SJWs are to blame for and something in my view people have every right to be pissed off about. Entertainment should be just that - entertainment. These idiots want to make everything political and insist that everything be about selling a certain cultural narrative rather than just having fun.

hatrickpatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

I know men who have actually gone and committed suicide following relationship break down.

Are you suggesting that what happened to you is a real common fear amongst men? I have never heard if it.

I have no idea if it's common or not. What I'm talking about involved the threat of blackmail (Even if you won't go out with me, if you kiss someone else on a night out you know the girls will all believe me if I tell them you were with me) and when that didn't work, the suggestion that I was making her think about suicide because I wouldn't go out with her. It terrified the f*cking sh!t out of me such that I did in fact go along with it for a while because I didn't want someone's blood on my hands.

This was in 2008. What made me angry about it, and what in fact kicked off my interest in mens' rights, was a parallel UK ad campaign showing boys treating their teenage girlfriends in the same way - always boys as the manipulators, always girls as the ones forced into controlling relationships. These ads had a tag line along the lines of "don't be that guy" - IE, shaming men for what they might do if they weren't careful to control themselves, or some sh!te like that. Not a single ad reversed the genders. Not one.

In that context, is it altogether surprising that there are a lot of men who are utterly fed up of the "men = aggressors, women = victims" narrative?

johnny osbourne

in case anybody don't hear me i said THE EARTH IS GLATT

Iseedeadpixels

johnny osbourne wrote: »

in case anybody don't hear me i said THE EARTH IS GLATT

Its actually called Terra I think, Glatt isnt a nice name at all

dark crystal

Samuel Scary Urination wrote: »

I think it is clear to see for anyone who can think for themselves that the western world is currently extremely anti-man. The examples are everywhere, from gender quotas to cries of "sexual harrassment" for being stared at. Misandry is now acceptable in most areas of life, whilst any attempt to point this out is usually received with a backlash of abuse, and quite ironically, more misandry.

In my opinion the media and large portions of the Internet are doing their best to attach a shame to being male, similarly to what's happening to white people. Somehow it's my fault for being male and therefore benefitting from this imaginary "male privilege", and I should be ashamed of that. Nonsense.

I'm sick to the back teeth of attempts being made to make me feel bad about my masculinity. I'm a man, and I'm proud of that fact. I hope everyone feels the same way about themselves, even those who have changed gender.

The equality movement has gone too far.

Your first line is somewhat puzzling to me. Are you saying that if we don't believe the western world is anti-man, then we are not thinking for ourselves? I don't get your thought process there at all.

I'll just take one gripe you have there; gender quotas. Personally, I don't agree with them for a myriad of reasons, but where do you think the conception of gender quotas came from? Why do you believe they were proposed in the first place?

No one should feel ashamed of their gender, but nor should we ignore inequalities where they exist for either gender. For every man who bemoans the lack of equality for fathers, there's an equal amount of women bemoaning the fact they still have to bear the burden of childcare and child rearing. A few weeks back, on another forum on this site, I was reading a thread where the owner of a business quite openly said he would never hire a woman over a man because they would only get pregnant and they wouldn't work as hard or do overtime etc. They got thanked for it too.

This is the problem with discussions like these; each gender's opinion will be coloured by their own experiences and some will refuse to see the other side at all. Saying someone hasn't a mind of their own because they might disagree with your view that the western world is a hotbed of misandry just fuels argument, rather than debate. Imagine if a woman posted the same thing about the western world being full of misogyny - she'd be called out for being a raging feminazi and the whole anti feminist argument would rumble on again. Funny, you don't see many women starting threads like that, though....

One eyed Jack

dark crystal wrote: »

Imagine if a woman posted the same thing about the western world being full of misogyny - she'd be called out for being a raging feminazi and the whole anti feminist argument would rumble on again. Funny, you don't see many women starting threads like that, though....

I remember a woman started a thread here on Boards to highlight the level of misogyny in After Hours... once! :pac:

(the thread almost caved in on itself for the way it was like a self-evident example of the issue it was intending to highlight)

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I remember a woman started a thread here on Boards to highlight the level of misogyny in After Hours... once! :pac:

(the thread almost caved in on itself for the way it was like a self-evident example of the issue it was intending to highlight)

http://imgur.com/KS8JOxd

Carlos Orange

Kev W wrote: »

You're right, it was.

http://m.independent.ie/unsorted/features/why-you-cant-take-your-eyes-off-your-drink-25898502.html

I stopped reading when I got to

"The director of the sexual assault treatment unit at the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin, Dr Mary Holohan, says that despite extensive testing, Rohypnol has never been found in the system of alleged victims."

The article is 11 years old. Maybe something has happened since then.

dark crystal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I remember a woman started a thread here on Boards to highlight the level of misogyny in After Hours... once! :pac:

(the thread almost caved in on itself for the way it was like a self-evident example of the issue it was intending to highlight)

I remember that thread alright

It began a very interesting debate and one which did actually improve the level of anti-woman rhetoric which was pervading the forum at the time. It wasn't a nice time to be a female boards poster and I have to say things have improved a lot since.

I have noticed it's been replaced by a more anti feminist agenda now and I think that's become a new, less overt way of having a dig at women in general. Still an improvement on the horror of having to read three or four threads about how awful Irish women are though!

hatrickpatrick

dark crystal wrote: »

I have noticed it's been replaced by a more anti feminist agenda now and I think that's become a new, less overt way of having a dig at women in general.

It absolutely isn't. Not all women are feminists - far from it. I'd say about half of the young (mid twenties) women I know are as anti-feminist as I am, while all believing fully in equal rights and a gender blind society.

The "anti feminist = anti woman" fallacy is as ridiculous as the "anti Israel = anti semitic" fallacy in my view.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you know any man who has had their drink spiked by a woman?

Please show me just one example in Ireland where a woman(or man) has had their drink "spiked". I'll give you a hint, you'll be looking a loooooong time. It is so impossibly rare as to be basically an urban legend. The reality is that 99 times outa 100 people just drink too much or mix other drugs with drink.

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah it's always the women, even when it's the men I knew it was the women

Maybe try disproving what I said rather than fish for "thanks" and "right on sister" type ballsology? Take this most recent daftness that would be expected in the Onion, but nope it's a real campaign poster apparently and the message is well, on message with much of current "feminist" thinking. Thinking is a metaphor. Basically it's saying women are quasi children, who are always the victims and need moral guardians and responsibility bestowed from outside, because lets face it they're incapable of it. Men on the other hand hold all the adult responsibilities and as well as looking after their own, also have to look after the woman's. Niiice and as I said Victorian thinking. Hell it's ancient Greek thinking. Speaking of ancient Greeks, I wonder how that poster would run if it was two gay lads or lasses? Liberal headmelt I would imagine.

Either way this philosophy is promoting the idea of Women(™) as perpetual victims, in need of external help and protection and yet at the same time must be seen as (more than) equals. GTFO. It's a complete bloody nonsense. Luckily much of it only exists on the interwebs among green haired otherkin bloggists, student unions, ludicrous Lefties in pubs and the generally daft. In the real world few give a toss and women and men are just people. Sometimes this guff does get out in the wild though. The Tee shirt dude who sailed close to losing his job because a couple of juvenile hysterics got "triggered" and the other scientist dude who did because a near stereotype of a leftie feminist got economical with the truth, though she has previous with her own "qualifications" so no shock there.

And don't get me started on the MRA, MGTOW or PUA. For a start their names look like the checklist before Apollo 11 went for a landing. MRA. Go! MGTOW. Go! PUA. Go! We are go for retro burn!

Then again, nearly all of this nonsense comes from the US of A. A culture that is a fantastic idea looking for a reality, but somehow coming up short. A culture of puritans and whores as uneasy bedfellows. A culture that went nuts because Janet Jackson exposed a metal clad nipple, yet outside the Super Bowl stadium 19 year olds fresh from the Greyhound from Arkansas were chugging manparts for a 50 bill because a social safety net doesn't exist, but few outraged about that.

NachoBusiness

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah it's always the women, even when it's the men I knew it was the women

You're attempting to retort reason with empty soundbyte. Do you honestly think that just because men held/hold the majority of political positions in power, that this somehow means that they would (or could) just legislate for the lads when there? You're surely not that naive.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Please show me just one example in Ireland where a woman(or man) has had their drink "spiked". I'll give you a hint, you'll be looking a loooooong time. It is so impossibly rare as to be basically an urban legend. The reality is that 99 times outa 100 people just drink too much or mix other drugs with drink.

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the friends I spoke to recently told me about an incident when getting a spin home from the local GAA star (no friend of mine, father of 3, local hero), who then collected 3 other fellows, who sat in, and then proceeded to drive her to a house despite her rising protests and eventual hysterics and begging to be let out. They only relented when she started trying to ring her own brother and they realised that there would be serious consequences, but up to then they thought it was normal. The fellows who landed into the car are well known in this area for pushing the envelope and a few young girls just can't seem to remember the parties they went to.

The scary thing, she thought it was her fault for getting into a car. And obviously could not go to the Gardai, because nothing actually happened beyond her getting a lift, and feeling a rising sense of panic as the situation dawned on her.

I have never heard of any man facing anything remotely similar.

I should say I cant really say what their tactics were. I know of other fellows who have been to parties with them and on one occasion knows a group of them had sex with a semi sensible woman, so the drink spiking was an assumption. She may simply have been given loads of drink, she may have been given drugs and taken them voluntarily. She went to the Gardai and then decided not to proceed. It was a particularly ugly incident that kinda hung over the own for a while.

Eugene Norman

@wibbs

Where was that poster from?

hatrickpatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

I should say I cant really say what their tactics were. I know of other fellows who have been to parties with them and on one occasion knows a group of them had sex with a semi sensible woman, so the drink spiking was an assumption. She may simply have been given loads of drink, she may have been given drugs and taken them voluntarily. She went to the Gardai and then decided not to proceed. It was a particularly ugly incident that kinda hung over the own for a while.

So in essence, you're admitting to attempting to give weight to an unproven trope, with a story which you now admit only "proves" the aforementioned trope if assumptions are made.

I was only joking the other day about Denis O'Brien, but in all honesty you really would be coveted by his PR people, if only they could see some of this stuff in action. Give them a call, some serious moolah to be made

hatrickpatrick

Eugene Norman wrote: »

@wibbs

Where was that poster from?

It's been doing the rounds on the internet for the last few days, such that it's quite difficult now to figure out where it originated. Some university bathroom, as as much info as I have.

dark crystal

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It absolutely isn't. Not all women are feminists - far from it. I'd say about half of the young (mid twenties) women I know are as anti-feminist as I am, while all believing fully in equal rights and a gender blind society.

The "anti feminist = anti woman" fallacy is as ridiculous as the "anti Israel = anti semitic" fallacy in my view.

I know not all women would identify as feminists; my point being I believe it is a term which brings out the worst in some quarters here. It is also my belief that anti feminism can sometimes disguise itself quite cleverly as anti women in general.

You are free to disagree with that of course, it's just a feeling I get from certain posts from time to time.

Fox_In_Socks

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe try disproving what I said rather than fish for "thanks" and "right on sister" type ballsology? Take this most recent daftness that would be expected in the Onion, but nope it's a real campaign poster apparently and the message is well, on message with much of current "feminist" thinking

Serious question, but how would this work in reality? People who are in relationships and have sex while drunk? Ditto two people who know each other a little/well.

Someone comes home from work and has a bottle of wine and has sex with their partner?

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So in essence, you're admitting to attempting to give weight to an unproven trope, with a story which you now admit only "proves" the aforementioned trope if assumptions are made.

I was only joking the other day about Denis O'Brien, but in all honesty you really would be coveted by his PR people, if only they could see some of this stuff in action. Give them a call, some serious moolah to be made

I appreciate you had a bad experience which apparently has coloured your opinion on women, but that's no reason to dismiss what has happened to women you don't know. All I have done is relate their experience. That as one rape and one girl that was driven to a house. And yes, they may have an increased fear of spiked drinks that you dismiss and have made a reference that is not backed by stats. I know the girl that a few of them had sex with while she was insensible to see and say hi to, I know the one that they dumped on the side of a road after she was in hysterics about her brother killing them very very well. The sex and intimidation was very real. I don't know any man who has gone through that. If you do, by all means share it.

frostyjacks

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I appreciate you had a bad experience which apparently has coloured your opinion on women, but that's no reason to dismiss what has happened to women you don't know. All I have done is relate their experience. That as one rape and one girl that was driven to a house. And yes, they may have an increased fear of spiked drinks that you dismiss and have made a reference that is not backed by stats. I know the girl that a few of them had sex with while she was insensible to see and say hi to, I know the one that they dumped on the side of a road after she was in hysterics about her brother killing them very very well. The sex and intimidation was very real. I don't know any man who has gone through that. If you do, by all means share it.

Was any of this reported to the Gardaí? Sounds very serious.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe try disproving what I said rather than fish for "thanks" and "right on sister" type ballsology? .

NachoBusiness wrote: »

You're attempting to retort reason with empty soundbyte..

AH in "laughing at ironic juxtaposition of posts" shocker!

I'm sure the two of you can figure out the point. Maybe even without another 5 paragraphs of "ballsology"...

hatrickpatrick

dark crystal wrote: »

I know not all women would identify as feminists; my point being I believe it is a term which brings out the worst in some quarters here. It is also my belief that anti feminism can sometimes disguise itself quite cleverly as anti women in general.

You are free to disagree with that of course, it's just a feeling I get from certain posts from time to time.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but your original post lacked the word "sometimes". I've seen the "if you're anti feminist, your anti woman" ridiculousness thrown around on the internet so many times that it's fairly laughable at this stage Of course, the "sometimes" qualifier changes the whole tone of your argument. Yes, some misogynists try to hide behind the anti-feminist - but they are far from the majority.

frostyjacks

frostyjacks wrote: »

Was any of this reported to the Gardaí? Sounds very serious.

It was. She went to the Gardai. And they were thrilled, as they knew the MO of these lads. But she didn't proceed with a complaint. They didn't know why, it may be that the whole thing would have led to an exposure of her social life that she did not want. There was a Garda in the house at the time who just stayed away from the room and said afterwards he regretted not intervening, but again it may have led to hard questions being asked about the company he kept.

hatrickpatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

I appreciate you had a bad experience which apparently has coloured your opinion on women,

Whoa. It absolutely has not, I have absolutely nothing against women whatsoever. I don't judge people based on their gender. I have something against feminists, not women. At all. And to be honest, that's a pretty crappy accusation to throw at somebody when there's absolutely nothing to back it up.

but that's no reason to dismiss what has happened to women you don't know. All I have done is relate their experience. That as one rape and one girl that was driven to a house. And yes, they may have an increased fear of spiked drinks that you dismiss and have made a reference that is not backed by stats. I know the girl that a few of them had sex with while she was insensible to see and say hi to, I know the one that they dumped on the side of a road after she was in hysterics about her brother killing them very very well. The sex and intimidation was very real. I don't know any man who has gone through that. If you do, by all means share it.

I wasn't dismissing what happened, I believe that it happened and it's atrocious. YOU were the one who added the "she was probably spiked" bit to that story, not your friend or indeed anyone else - and then you subsequently admitted that you were basing that entirely on assumption, not on fact. This is what I was making fun of.

osarusan

Wibbs wrote: »

Please show me just one example in Ireland where a woman(or man) has had their drink "spiked". I'll give you a hint, you'll be looking a loooooong time.

Dr. Eireann Kerr.

It was accepted during her trial that Dr Kerr’s drink had been spiked with the drug GHB, but the judge found her guilty of assault, resisting an officer and disorderly behaviour, and gave her a two-month conditional discharge.
The incident occurred after she attended a Christmas party with work colleagues in Derry in December 2013.
The district judge who convicted her at Derry Magistrates’ Court said he had no doubt her drink had been spiked, but explained involuntary intoxication was not a defence in law.


...


She woke up in a police cell and upon release she went to hospital to get blood tests - an examination that found traces of date rape drug GHB.

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I wasn't dismissing what happened, I believe that it happened and it's atrocious. YOU were the one who added the "she was probably spiked" bit to that story, not your friend or indeed anyone else - and then you subsequently admitted that you were basing that entirely on assumption, not on fact. This is what I was making fun of.

No no, they assumed the drink was spiked. They made the assumption, I'm only relating what I have heard. No one has really tackled her on whether she took drugs voluntarily. She may have. Indeed that may be why she did did not proceed.

Carlos Orange

Eugene Norman wrote: »

@wibbs

Where was that poster from?

According to the internet it is from Coastal Carolina University circa 2007.

hatrickpatrick

Deleted User wrote: »

No no, they assumed the drink was spiked. They made the assumption, I'm only relating what I have heard. No one has really tackled her on whether she took drugs voluntarily. She may have. Indeed that may be why she did did not proceed.

...So then why bring the story up in response to a quoted post about drinks being spiked? Presumably, you were hoping no one would press you on whether you actually knew that there was spiking involved, on account of how horrific the story is?

And this isn't a disingenuous debating tactic...?

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...So then why bring the story up in response to a quoted post about drinks being spiked? Presumably, you were hoping no one would press you on whether you actually knew that there was spiking involved, on account of how horrific the story is?

And this isn't a disingenuous debating tactic...?

I actually brought up the group in post no. 71 about taxi driver attacks. I pointed out that they are known for picking up girls who don't remember what happened to them. Yes, there is a general acceptance that they spike drinks, that may not be correct because it has never been demonstrated. What is known is that they pick up women who end up being treated in a pretty depraved manner. In the creepiest way - the friend of mine thought she was getting a lift home and she was driven to a car park where others got into the car, and knowing those others and what they had done before she became very afraid when they started driving her out into the country despite her protests. And that's something I have not heard happens to women in this town.

nullzero

There is such double think around gender in society. If a group of men in a workplace pinch a woman's backside it is sexual harassment and law suits will be filed and jobs lost. If a group of women in a workplace pinch a man's backside it's all good fun and isn't he lucky to be getting the attention?

If a husband in a sexless marriage has an adulterous affair he is a dirty cheating b@stard, he didn't work hard enough in his marriage and looked after his own needs at the expense of his wife who can divorce him and get to keep their home, everyone will fawn over the wife and worry about her emotional state after such a shocking experience.
If the wife in a sexless marriage has an adulterous affair she is affirming her sexual reawakening as is her right when her husband can no longer satisfy her. She will divorce him and get to keep their home and no one will give a damn about how the man feels.