Immigration Just Affects the Poor, The Rich Benefit, Easy to Shout Racism.

RichardCeann

David McWilliams wrote an article in this weekends SBP calling for a debate on immigration. It's a very well written and thoughtful piece. The first time I've read something on this issue, in an Irish publication, that appears to take both sides equally. In my mind, the last two paragraphs hit the nail on the head :

"These are the facts. Immigration is a class issue, and the richer you are, the greater the luxury you have to pontificate about immigration because you are not affected – or if you are, you are affected positively.

When the relatively poor – those who are threatened by immigrants – voice their concerns, it is far too easy for the rich to dismiss these people as “racist’ or “xenophobic”, whereas maybe they are just voicing everyday real concerns. One thing is clear: immigration is going to increase in the years ahead. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to talk about it, warts and all?"

Full article here: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2015/08/10/why-immigration-is-a-class-issue

It is the working class or those in more menial employment who see unparalleled competition in the labour market, their wages being surpressed, driven down and not increasing, social housing becoming unavailable(>5 years or even more to get a 'starter' home), the demand for school places not meeting supply in their areas etc.

Hopefully McWilliams' article will lead to the issue being discussed in Leinster House and fairly within the media. The demographic change Ireland has experienced over the past fifteen years has been extraordinary. We have went from having one of the most homogenous populations in the EU15 to having the fifth highest immigrant population, per capita, in the EU 28. Yet our elected representatives have not discussed or debated this change and the ramifications of it.

That has to change and McWilliams' input is most welcome.

Kermit.de.frog

He is, of course, right but people seem afraid to acknowledge in public that basic truth. The biggest supporters of high immigration are those that, for the moment, don't actually take any consequences of it.

It's when those middle class communities start to demographically change themselves that attitudes will change with it. And in the type of democracy we inhabit where the middle are the biggest voter block their opinion matters most.

OneOfThem

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

Stheno

Interesting that he doesn't address the issue of emmigration

As someone with specialist skills who feels constrained with what I can earn here compared to in London (less than half here), I'd consider it

Is there a potential brain drain outwards here, while we hire low skilled immigrants?

RichardCeann

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

What do you work at? The probability is that you could easily be replaced by someone who is better and willing to work for less than your current salary. That goes for the majority of the 1.9 million or so in the Irish workforce. As things stand, some member of the workforce are a lot more protected and sheltered from immigration policy and regulations than others.

Stheno

RichardCeann wrote: »

As things stand, some member of the workforce are a lot more protected and sheltered from immigration policy and regulations than others.

Who are you talking about here?

lightspeed

It appears that it's an issue that is EU wide an not just affecting Ireland. Look at all the migrants coming into Greece each day despite their post war like economy. Im at somewhat of a loss as to why policies that promote or at least allowe further immigration are being pursued when it appears that most EU countries seem to think its an area that needs huge reform. If you had a referendum in each EU country asking the question "should we offer refuge to anymore asylum seekers?" I don't think there would be one country in favour of it.

The current migrant situation is ridicoulus and was inevitable since invading Iraq. I assume most of people in EU countries would oppose putting troops on the ground back in Iraq or in Syria, not just due to loss of lives of those in the military but also the huge financial cost. However, the much of middle east and some of Africa has at least some people who can claim they will be persecuted for their beliefs and so require asylum. I read that the border guard in Greece that was removed from his positon recently was removed because he slapped a Pakistani migrant. So like many others, it is unlikely he was fleeing from genuine persectution in Syria or Libya etc. With no set number as to when we start refusing them access, how much will the west spend not getting involved militarily in another conflict?

Eugene Norman

RichardCeann wrote: »

What do you work at? The probability is that you could easily be replaced by someone who is better and willing to work for less than your current salary. That goes for the majority of the 1.9 million or so in the Irish workforce. As things stand, some member of the workforce are a lot more protected and sheltered from immigration policy and regulations than others.

Yes. Most public sector ( except health) and the old boys networks in the private sector.

RichardCeann

Stheno wrote: »

Who are you talking about here?

Going with the theme of the article, take the media as an example. RTE are extremely positive when discussing immigration and multiculturalism. They do not seem to be as positive when hiring. Out of their frontline staff I can only think of two that are of non Irish descent. The lad that does the Lotto and the Sri Lankan lady who is on from time to time.

Next we would compare and contrast the number of non Irish working in the public and private sectors.....

OneOfThem

RichardCeann wrote: »

What do you work at? The probability is that you could easily be replaced by someone who is better and willing to work for less than your current salary. That goes for the majority of the 1.9 million or so in the Irish workforce. As things stand, some member of the workforce are a lot more protected and sheltered from immigration policy and regulations than others.

A crap load of Polish (and others) immigrants came here and worked at my profession. Didn't effect me in the slightest. I am extraordinarily good at what I do. I made sure that I was. Immigrants were willing to work for a quarter of what I charged during the height of the recession. There were a lot of homegrown Irish willing to undercut me before the recent wave of immigration came to Ireland. I didn't lower my price and continued to make a living. I'm good at what I do. Better than most others. Therefore people pay me to do what I do as well as I do it. Had I found myself in a position whereby I was unable to earn what I wanted to earn doing what I do due to over saturation of the market. I'd have done something else.

Streetwalker

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

Doug sounds like a right idiot.

NachoBusiness

OneOfThem wrote: »

If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

That's just a liberal nicety. Even if that happening did prove the person was 'better than you', so what? What does that have to do with the discussion exactly? I'm sure there are millions of people in the world that could arrive in this country and achieve for themselves a much better outcome than many citizens currently have for themselves. Does that mean we should just try and absorb those millions because of that?? Hardly.

Steppenwolfe

It has always been such. McWilliams can call for debate all he wants. The powers that be have control over the mainstream media. Nothing will come of it. Too late anyway.

Stheno

RichardCeann wrote: »

Going with the theme of the article, take the media as an example. RTE are extremely positive when discussing immigration and multiculturalism. They do not seem to be as positive when hiring. Out of their frontline staff I can only think of two that are of non Irish descent. The lad that does the Lotto and the Sri Lankan lady who is on from time to time.

Next we would compare and contrast the number of non Irish working in the public and private sectors.....

Karlin Lillington who works for the times is American

The guards have non national interpreters as do the DSP

We've had a couple of Mayors of non national descent.

What do you mean by non-national? Non Irish?

If you mean non-Irish, you'll find vast amounts of them in the private sector.

I was on citizens information website recently, it offered polish, french and romanian translations to accept the fact we have a large non native english speaking population

Not quite sure what your point is?

Is this a disguised "the foreigners are stealing our jobs thread?"

KomradeBishop

We have net emigration - more people are leaving Ireland than coming here - and it's been this way for some time:
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2014/

How on earth is this a problem, when more people are leaving Ireland than coming here?

OneOfThem

NachoBusiness wrote: »

That's just a liberal nicety. Even if that happening did prove the person was 'better than you', so what? What does that have to do with the discussion exactly? I'm sure there are millions of people in the world that could arrive in this country and achieve for themselves a much better outcome than many citizens currently have for themselves. Does that mean we should just try and absorb those millions because of that?? Hardly.

Yes. All international borders should be dissolved (gradually over time, step by step) Sanchez is a better neurosurgeon than you and willing to work for less? Be a better neurosurgeon. Can't compete? Tough. Do something else.

Kermit.de.frog

KomradeBishop wrote: »

How on earth is this a problem, when more people are leaving Ireland than coming here?

On the contrary it could be an even bigger problem if it's mostly Irish people leaving and foreign workers replacing them.

Also the economy is growing fast now so emigration could be reversed by the end of 2016 to net immigration again.

Eugene Norman

OneOfThem wrote: »

A crap load of Polish (and others) immigrants came here and worked at my profession. Didn't effect me in the slightest. I am extraordinarily good at what I do. I made sure that I was. Immigrants were willing to work for a quarter of what I charged during the height of the recession. There were a lot of homegrown Irish willing to undercut me before the recent wave of immigration came to Ireland. I didn't lower my price and continued to make a living. I'm good at what I do. Better than most others. Therefore people pay me to do what I do as well as I do it. Had I found myself in a position whereby I was unable to earn what I wanted to earn doing what I do due to over saturation of the market. I'd have done something else.

Yes but enough about you. I too have no bother competing in my job, in fact I've worked in the best companies in the world. This doesn't mean that the rest of society should go to hell.

Eugene Norman

KomradeBishop wrote: »

We have net emigration - more people are leaving Ireland than coming here - and it's been this way for some time:
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2014/

How on earth is this a problem, when more people are leaving Ireland than coming here?

It's really hard to believe those figures and look at other stats -- like housing and rent etc

OneOfThem

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes but enough about you. I too have no bother competing in my job, in fact I've worked in the best comaniesin the world. This doesn't mean that the rest of society should go to hell.

The rest of society is free to be better at what they do. And if the wages aren't to their satisfaction due to people better than them willing to work for less, then do something else. Irish people seek to undercut and out perform each other all the time. That's the world you live in. Even with 0% immigration. Can't hack it, tough sh1t.

The Randy Riverbeast

Christ, we can't even get to the end of the title of immigration threads without someone saying racism.

Eugene Norman

OneOfThem wrote: »

Yes. All international borders should be dissolved (gradually over time, step by step) Sanchez is a better neurosurgeon than you and willing to work for less? Be a better neurosurgeon. Can't compete? Tough. Do something else.

That's a recipie to destroy the private sector middle classes. It's bollocks anyway. How many lawyers or public sector workers will be affected? How many journalists or RTE staff.

There's plenty of protected jobs in countries with large scale immigration. Often these guys are immigration a greatest fans.

Eugene Norman

OneOfThem wrote: »

The rest of society is free to be better at what they do. And if the wages aren't to their satisfaction due to people better than them willing to work for less, then do something else. Irish people seek to undercut and out perform each other all the time. That's the world you live in. Even with 0% immigration. Can't hack it, tough sh1t.

lol. I said I could hack it.

You are clearly incapable of understanding any kind of general argument. The op mentioned McWilliams piece about how the low skilled would be affected by immigration. Not you. Good on you. You're alright Jack. Good man. So am I.


However im not really willing to sell everybody else out.

Stheno

Eugene Norman wrote: »

lol. I said I could hack it.

You are clearly incapable of understanding any kind of general argument. The op mentioned McWilliams piece about how the low skilled would be affected by immigration. Not you. Good on you. You're alright Jack. Good man. So am I.


However im not really willing to sell everybody else out.

We do have min. wage laws to prevent selling people out.

If you work in a job where someone will do it on min. wage then that's the value of the job

OneOfThem

Eugene Norman wrote: »

That's a recipie to destroy the private sector middle classes. It's bollocks anyway. How many lawyers or public sector workers will be affected? How many journalists or RTE staff.

There's plenty of protected jobs in countries with large scale immigration. Often these guys are immigration a greatest fans.

What's your reason for thinking that? Which countries' private sector middle classes have been destroyed by immigration? What's your basis? What's your model based on?

NachoBusiness

OneOfThem wrote: »

Sanchez is a better neurosurgeon than you and willing to work for less? Be a better neurosurgeon. Can't compete? Tough. Do something else.

Naive, idealistic, left-wing, extremist, tripe.

Tell us. How many immigrants are you personally willing to house and feed yourself?

OneOfThem

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Naive, idealistic, left-wing, extremist, tripe.

Tell us. How many immigrants are you personally willing to house and feed yourself?

47.

(free market economics is fairly right wing, I'm pretty sure btw, read it on the door of a bathroom stall, so it's gotta be true.)

Eugene Norman

Stheno wrote: »

We do have min. wage laws to prevent selling people out.

If you work in a job where someone will do it on min. wage then that's the value of the job

No minimum wage laws would survive the open borders movements that are being talked about here.

But the real problems are that there is a protected sector. I compete with the world in my job, and I can. Do teachers? Journalists? Barristers and solicitors?

I'm not a huge fan of modern disruptive technology either, as the problem that uber is solving benefits slightly the already privileged ( taxi users) and decimates wages for others. Most people are unskilled or semi skilled. The world wages for most people is just above subsistence.

Eugene Norman

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Naive, idealistic, left-wing, extremist, tripe.

Tell us. How many immigrants are you personally willing to house and feed yourself?

I'm pretty sure that he isn't a left winger. I am but an old school "organised labour" type ( screw identity politics). The real powers behind open borders are right wing ideologues and billionaires.

OneOfThem

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that he isn't a left winger. I am but an old school "organised labour" type ( screw identity politics). The real powers behind open borders are right wing ideologues and billionaires.

See I'm neither right or left wing. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. I'm a fan of man.

RichardCeann

When 'humanitarians' such as Peter Sutherland, the International Chairman of Goldman Sachs, are calling for open borders, then you know something is afoot.

Eugene Norman

OneOfThem wrote: »

What's your reason for thinking that? Which countries' private sector middle classes have been destroyed by immigration? What's your basis? What's your model based on?

Look there only so much of your below average IQ arguments I am going to listen to. You support fully open borders. You believe that if someone can undercut you then so be it. Join the dots. The world wage is much lower than the average western wage. Work out what happens if there are no restrictions.

As for the present day where we don't have a full open borders anywhere, wages have stagnated or fallen for the bottom 20%, in most studies of immigration. Some skilled workers benefit because of the networking effect, and because capital follows labour. The unskilled don't. Protected labour does, regardless of skills. Rentiers and profiteers extract more rent and profit.

You will remain all right Jack. Now try and think in a general sense.

Eugene Norman

OneOfThem wrote: »

See I'm neither right or left wing. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. I'm a fan of man.

You seem to be a fan of yourself. Which is one man, to be fair.

omicron

Stheno wrote: »

We do have min. wage laws to prevent selling people out.

If you work in a job where someone will do it on min. wage then that's the value of the job

You obviously haven't much experience of minimum wage in Ireland. Like where people get breaks deducted from wages but can't take breaks, or get 50c an hour deducted for meals they don't get to eat, or get told to clock out at 8 but work til 10. Minimum wage isn't enforced.

OneOfThem

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Look there only so much of your below average IQ arguments I am going to listen to. You support fully open borders. You believe that if someone can undercut you then so be it. Join the dots. The world wage is much lower than the average western wage. Work out what happens if there are no restrictions.

As for the present day where we don't have a full open borders anywhere, wages have stagnated or fallen for the bottom 20%, in most studies of immigration. Some skilled workers benefit because of the networking effect, and because capital follows labour. The unskilled don't. Protected labour does, regardless of skills. Rentiers and profiteers extract more rent and profit.

You will remain all right Jack. Now try and think in a general sense.

Eugene Norman wrote: »

You seem to be a fan of yourself. Which is one man, to be fair.

So I'm selfish and of a low IQ. Granted. Now try to put forward an argument that explains why those two things are true. Or better yet. Try to support your position. I'll wait Eugene. Take your time. Try not to hurt yourself. And attack the ball, not the man. It's not big and it's not clever.

I'm off to bed. Work in the morning.

NachoBusiness

OneOfThem wrote: »

See I'm neither right or left wing. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. I'm a fan of man.

A humanist? No, you're not.

Open borders would bring nothing but misery and suffering and would help nobody in the long run as it would just destroy the very countries that these people are looking to have a future in. It wouldn't be a case of biting the hand that feed, it would be a case of dismantling it as mass immigration into this country would destroy our infrastructure on almost every level. We can barely afford our social welfare bill as it is. Even if that didn't happen, it would still take many many decades for immigrants to become self sufficient and so who would pay the welfare and health bill in the interim?

Calling for open borders in a world were over a billion people are oppressed and suffering within their own countries, is about as ridiculous a political view as one can have. Loose immigration policy (never mind open borders) has already led to disastrous consequences in countries like France where there is 40% unemployment in certain parts of the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkhubEsuTSM

OneOfThem

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

Easy for Doug Stanhope today given his particular niche of white, middle class, native English speaking comedian. If that market was suddenly flooded with equally competent outsiders he would feel very differently I'd imagine.

Exactly the point McWilliams was making as I understand it.

buried

If the EU wants less immigration from countries such as Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan then the EU should kick up a bit more fuss and call a halt when The USA and its vested business interests decide to wage war up in the likes of Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan, instead of just lying down like braindead saps, and allowing georgie obama and barack bush to do whatever they want to do on our side of the world.

F**king pathetic. Blame the poor ordinary person trying to escape the war zone where that person and their family are trying to flee from instead of blaming the actual F**king reason why the war zone was created in the first place

KomradeBishop

OneOfThem wrote: »

See I'm neither right or left wing. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. I'm a fan of man.

Hell even the Humanist's are only a shadow of their former selves - they used to be heavily left-wing:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/28/how-the-humanist-movement-fosters-economic-injustice/

TLDR - the humanist movement is leaning towards passive pro-corporatism these days, and has almost completely abandoned all 'economic justice' issues, being hollowed out where it comes to politics surrounding economics.

KomradeBishop

While I think outright open borders would be a bad idea, there's nothing wrong with mass-immigration, so long as the people coming are working.

If you combine large scale immigration, with proper jobs programs leaving nobody unemployed, then it can provide a massive net-benefit to the country (which is perfectly possible, it just means normal quality of life when private sector is at full employment, and reduced quality of life when private sector is not employing everyone, as we would all be sharing the burden of keeping every last person employed at those times).

Ireland used to have a much larger population, and there's no reason we can't sustain it again.

A Primal Nut

It's quite frustrating when left wing media such as the Guardian constantly complain about increasing inequality but at the same time advocate open borders (such as demanding that UK take all the migrants from Calais in legally) which of course increases inequality further because all these migrants are poorer than the average Brit. And obviously, what they want for Britain they want for Ireland too. If you want an equal society, you should be calling for less immigration which keeps our wages and working conditions up.

It's always interesting that many of these migrants have very conservative beliefs, often the opposite extreme from the liberals who want them to come here.

A Primal Nut

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If you combine large scale immigration, with proper jobs programs leaving nobody unemployed

What's a proper job program that would leave nobody umemployed?

OMD

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ireland used to have a much larger population, and there's no reason we can't sustain it again.

When did Ireland sustain a much larger population? During the famine?
Maybe you need to define sustain.

suicide_circus

A Primal Nut wrote: »

What's a proper job program that would leave nobody umemployed?

Like the job programmes which operated in the soviet union I'd imagine.

conorhal

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

A popular quote and a facetious one.
What does Doug have to say about those that don't achieve £h1t? Has he anything to say about migrant ghettos with chronically underemployed populations living in the 9th Century ans supported by the welfare state?
And most importantly does 'ol Doug have anything to say about what we should do with such under achieving migrants?


No? Thought not.

conorhal

suicide_circus wrote: »

Like the job programmes which operated in the soviet union I'd imagine.

The ones in which 'people pretended to work and the state pretended to pay them'? That worked well.......

Is he not only rehashing the argument used by all right wing groups, but packaging it in a nicer class oriented way. Racism isn't racism, it's fear based on legitimate concerns about threats to job security. It would be fair to say racism also exists amongst the numbers who never worked a day in their lives.

He also seems to overlook other positives from immigration and increased demand for services, here in South Kerry the increased numbers have seen new hospitals, schools etc. finally delivered after years of watching them fall down as numbers fled from the county.

conorhal

Deleted User wrote: »

Is he not only rehashing the argument used by all right wing groups, but packaging it in a nicer class oriented way. Racism isn't racism, it's fear based on legitimate concerns about threats to job security. It would be fair to say racism also exists amongst the numbers who never worked a day in their lives.

He also seems to overlook other positives from immigration and increased demand for services, here in South Kerry the increased numbers have seen new hospitals, schools etc. finally delivered after years of watching them fall down as numbers fled from the county.

Williams has written extensively about the positives, he's acknowledging however that there are, especially in recessionary times, also negatives, a fact that seems to go right over the head of our policy makers who insist 'only positive depictions of immigration are allowed'.

Alexis Sanchez

Social democrat, Bernie Sanders, is opposed to open boarders because the wealthy exploit them for cheap labour. Here's what he said in an interview for Vox (which seems to disagree with him):

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders

So I was disappointed, if not surprised, at the visceral horror with which Bernie Sanders reacted to the idea when interviewed by my colleague Ezra Klein. "Open borders?" he interjected. "No, that's a Koch brothers proposal." The idea, he argued, is a right-wing scheme meant to flood the US with cheap labor and depress wages for native-born workers. "I think from a moral responsibility, we've got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty," he conceded, "but you don't do that by making people in this country even poorer."

Sanders is dead right. When a wealthy man is calling for mass immigration, he's only doing to drive down wages in his company/companies and earn himself more money.

Alexis Sanchez

Alexis Sanchez wrote: »

When a wealthy man is calling for mass immigration, he's only doing to drive down wages in his company/companies and earn himself more money.

What wealthy person in Ireland has called for "mass immigration"?

And how do these Koch Brothers they get so many Mexicans and others to participate in their ruse?

Migration is just one of those things. People will try to better themselves and move. To suggest it's part of some capitalist conspiracy seems a bit hysterical.

Permabear

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