Immigration Just Affects the Poor, The Rich Benefit, Easy to Shout Racism.

RichardCeann · 13-08-2015 12:26AM #1

David McWilliams wrote an article in this weekends SBP calling for a debate on immigration. It's a very well written and thoughtful piece. The first time I've read something on this issue, in an Irish publication, that appears to take both sides equally. In my mind, the last two paragraphs hit the nail on the head :

"These are the facts. Immigration is a class issue, and the richer you are, the greater the luxury you have to pontificate about immigration because you are not affected – or if you are, you are affected positively.

When the relatively poor – those who are threatened by immigrants – voice their concerns, it is far too easy for the rich to dismiss these people as “racist’ or “xenophobic”, whereas maybe they are just voicing everyday real concerns. One thing is clear: immigration is going to increase in the years ahead. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to talk about it, warts and all?"

Full article here: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2015/08/10/why-immigration-is-a-class-issue

It is the working class or those in more menial employment who see unparalleled competition in the labour market, their wages being surpressed, driven down and not increasing, social housing becoming unavailable(>5 years or even more to get a 'starter' home), the demand for school places not meeting supply in their areas etc.

Hopefully McWilliams' article will lead to the issue being discussed in Leinster House and fairly within the media. The demographic change Ireland has experienced over the past fifteen years has been extraordinary. We have went from having one of the most homogenous populations in the EU15 to having the fifth highest immigrant population, per capita, in the EU 28. Yet our elected representatives have not discussed or debated this change and the ramifications of it.

That has to change and McWilliams' input is most welcome.

Kermit.de.frog · 13-08-2015 12:31AM

He is, of course, right but people seem afraid to acknowledge in public that basic truth. The biggest supporters of high immigration are those that, for the moment, don't actually take any consequences of it.

It's when those middle class communities start to demographically change themselves that attitudes will change with it. And in the type of democracy we inhabit where the middle are the biggest voter block their opinion matters most.

OneOfThem · 13-08-2015 12:33AM

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

Stheno · 13-08-2015 12:38AM

Interesting that he doesn't address the issue of emmigration

As someone with specialist skills who feels constrained with what I can earn here compared to in London (less than half here), I'd consider it

Is there a potential brain drain outwards here, while we hire low skilled immigrants?

RichardCeann · 13-08-2015 12:39AM

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

What do you work at? The probability is that you could easily be replaced by someone who is better and willing to work for less than your current salary. That goes for the majority of the 1.9 million or so in the Irish workforce. As things stand, some member of the workforce are a lot more protected and sheltered from immigration policy and regulations than others.

Stheno · 13-08-2015 12:41AM

RichardCeann wrote: »

As things stand, some member of the workforce are a lot more protected and sheltered from immigration policy and regulations than others.

Who are you talking about here?

lightspeed · 13-08-2015 12:42AM

It appears that it's an issue that is EU wide an not just affecting Ireland. Look at all the migrants coming into Greece each day despite their post war like economy. Im at somewhat of a loss as to why policies that promote or at least allowe further immigration are being pursued when it appears that most EU countries seem to think its an area that needs huge reform. If you had a referendum in each EU country asking the question "should we offer refuge to anymore asylum seekers?" I don't think there would be one country in favour of it.

The current migrant situation is ridicoulus and was inevitable since invading Iraq. I assume most of people in EU countries would oppose putting troops on the ground back in Iraq or in Syria, not just due to loss of lives of those in the military but also the huge financial cost. However, the much of middle east and some of Africa has at least some people who can claim they will be persecuted for their beliefs and so require asylum. I read that the border guard in Greece that was removed from his positon recently was removed because he slapped a Pakistani migrant. So like many others, it is unlikely he was fleeing from genuine persectution in Syria or Libya etc. With no set number as to when we start refusing them access, how much will the west spend not getting involved militarily in another conflict?

Eugene Norman · 13-08-2015 12:46AM

RichardCeann wrote: »

What do you work at? The probability is that you could easily be replaced by someone who is better and willing to work for less than your current salary. That goes for the majority of the 1.9 million or so in the Irish workforce. As things stand, some member of the workforce are a lot more protected and sheltered from immigration policy and regulations than others.

Yes. Most public sector ( except health) and the old boys networks in the private sector.

RichardCeann · 13-08-2015 12:47AM

Stheno wrote: »

Who are you talking about here?

Going with the theme of the article, take the media as an example. RTE are extremely positive when discussing immigration and multiculturalism. They do not seem to be as positive when hiring. Out of their frontline staff I can only think of two that are of non Irish descent. The lad that does the Lotto and the Sri Lankan lady who is on from time to time.

Next we would compare and contrast the number of non Irish working in the public and private sectors.....

OneOfThem · 13-08-2015 12:47AM

RichardCeann wrote: »

What do you work at? The probability is that you could easily be replaced by someone who is better and willing to work for less than your current salary. That goes for the majority of the 1.9 million or so in the Irish workforce. As things stand, some member of the workforce are a lot more protected and sheltered from immigration policy and regulations than others.

A crap load of Polish (and others) immigrants came here and worked at my profession. Didn't effect me in the slightest. I am extraordinarily good at what I do. I made sure that I was. Immigrants were willing to work for a quarter of what I charged during the height of the recession. There were a lot of homegrown Irish willing to undercut me before the recent wave of immigration came to Ireland. I didn't lower my price and continued to make a living. I'm good at what I do. Better than most others. Therefore people pay me to do what I do as well as I do it. Had I found myself in a position whereby I was unable to earn what I wanted to earn doing what I do due to over saturation of the market. I'd have done something else.

Streetwalker · 13-08-2015 12:48AM

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

Doug sounds like a right idiot.

NachoBusiness · 13-08-2015 12:50AM

OneOfThem wrote: »

If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

That's just a liberal nicety. Even if that happening did prove the person was 'better than you', so what? What does that have to do with the discussion exactly? I'm sure there are millions of people in the world that could arrive in this country and achieve for themselves a much better outcome than many citizens currently have for themselves. Does that mean we should just try and absorb those millions because of that?? Hardly.

Steppenwolfe · 13-08-2015 12:52AM

It has always been such. McWilliams can call for debate all he wants. The powers that be have control over the mainstream media. Nothing will come of it. Too late anyway.

Stheno · 13-08-2015 12:53AM

RichardCeann wrote: »

Going with the theme of the article, take the media as an example. RTE are extremely positive when discussing immigration and multiculturalism. They do not seem to be as positive when hiring. Out of their frontline staff I can only think of two that are of non Irish descent. The lad that does the Lotto and the Sri Lankan lady who is on from time to time.

Next we would compare and contrast the number of non Irish working in the public and private sectors.....

Karlin Lillington who works for the times is American

The guards have non national interpreters as do the DSP

We've had a couple of Mayors of non national descent.

What do you mean by non-national? Non Irish?

If you mean non-Irish, you'll find vast amounts of them in the private sector.

I was on citizens information website recently, it offered polish, french and romanian translations to accept the fact we have a large non native english speaking population

Not quite sure what your point is?

Is this a disguised "the foreigners are stealing our jobs thread?"

KomradeBishop · 13-08-2015 12:54AM

We have net emigration - more people are leaving Ireland than coming here - and it's been this way for some time:
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2014/

How on earth is this a problem, when more people are leaving Ireland than coming here?

OneOfThem · 13-08-2015 12:54AM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

That's just a liberal nicety. Even if that happening did prove the person was 'better than you', so what? What does that have to do with the discussion exactly? I'm sure there are millions of people in the world that could arrive in this country and achieve for themselves a much better outcome than many citizens currently have for themselves. Does that mean we should just try and absorb those millions because of that?? Hardly.

Yes. All international borders should be dissolved (gradually over time, step by step) Sanchez is a better neurosurgeon than you and willing to work for less? Be a better neurosurgeon. Can't compete? Tough. Do something else.

Kermit.de.frog · 13-08-2015 12:57AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

How on earth is this a problem, when more people are leaving Ireland than coming here?

On the contrary it could be an even bigger problem if it's mostly Irish people leaving and foreign workers replacing them.

Also the economy is growing fast now so emigration could be reversed by the end of 2016 to net immigration again.

Eugene Norman · 13-08-2015 12:59AM

OneOfThem wrote: »

A crap load of Polish (and others) immigrants came here and worked at my profession. Didn't effect me in the slightest. I am extraordinarily good at what I do. I made sure that I was. Immigrants were willing to work for a quarter of what I charged during the height of the recession. There were a lot of homegrown Irish willing to undercut me before the recent wave of immigration came to Ireland. I didn't lower my price and continued to make a living. I'm good at what I do. Better than most others. Therefore people pay me to do what I do as well as I do it. Had I found myself in a position whereby I was unable to earn what I wanted to earn doing what I do due to over saturation of the market. I'd have done something else.

Yes but enough about you. I too have no bother competing in my job, in fact I've worked in the best companies in the world. This doesn't mean that the rest of society should go to hell.

Eugene Norman · 13-08-2015 01:00AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

We have net emigration - more people are leaving Ireland than coming here - and it's been this way for some time:
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2014/

How on earth is this a problem, when more people are leaving Ireland than coming here?

It's really hard to believe those figures and look at other stats -- like housing and rent etc

OneOfThem · 13-08-2015 01:02AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes but enough about you. I too have no bother competing in my job, in fact I've worked in the best comaniesin the world. This doesn't mean that the rest of society should go to hell.

The rest of society is free to be better at what they do. And if the wages aren't to their satisfaction due to people better than them willing to work for less, then do something else. Irish people seek to undercut and out perform each other all the time. That's the world you live in. Even with 0% immigration. Can't hack it, tough sh1t.

The Randy Riverbeast · 13-08-2015 01:03AM

Christ, we can't even get to the end of the title of immigration threads without someone saying racism.

Eugene Norman · 13-08-2015 01:05AM

OneOfThem wrote: »

Yes. All international borders should be dissolved (gradually over time, step by step) Sanchez is a better neurosurgeon than you and willing to work for less? Be a better neurosurgeon. Can't compete? Tough. Do something else.

That's a recipie to destroy the private sector middle classes. It's bollocks anyway. How many lawyers or public sector workers will be affected? How many journalists or RTE staff.

There's plenty of protected jobs in countries with large scale immigration. Often these guys are immigration a greatest fans.

Eugene Norman · 13-08-2015 01:08AM

OneOfThem wrote: »

The rest of society is free to be better at what they do. And if the wages aren't to their satisfaction due to people better than them willing to work for less, then do something else. Irish people seek to undercut and out perform each other all the time. That's the world you live in. Even with 0% immigration. Can't hack it, tough sh1t.

lol. I said I could hack it.

You are clearly incapable of understanding any kind of general argument. The op mentioned McWilliams piece about how the low skilled would be affected by immigration. Not you. Good on you. You're alright Jack. Good man. So am I.

However im not really willing to sell everybody else out.

Stheno · 13-08-2015 01:10AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

lol. I said I could hack it.

You are clearly incapable of understanding any kind of general argument. The op mentioned McWilliams piece about how the low skilled would be affected by immigration. Not you. Good on you. You're alright Jack. Good man. So am I.

However im not really willing to sell everybody else out.

We do have min. wage laws to prevent selling people out.

If you work in a job where someone will do it on min. wage then that's the value of the job

OneOfThem · 13-08-2015 01:12AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

That's a recipie to destroy the private sector middle classes. It's bollocks anyway. How many lawyers or public sector workers will be affected? How many journalists or RTE staff.

There's plenty of protected jobs in countries with large scale immigration. Often these guys are immigration a greatest fans.

What's your reason for thinking that? Which countries' private sector middle classes have been destroyed by immigration? What's your basis? What's your model based on?

NachoBusiness · 13-08-2015 01:15AM

OneOfThem wrote: »

Sanchez is a better neurosurgeon than you and willing to work for less? Be a better neurosurgeon. Can't compete? Tough. Do something else.

Naive, idealistic, left-wing, extremist, tripe.

Tell us. How many immigrants are you personally willing to house and feed yourself?

OneOfThem · 13-08-2015 01:16AM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Naive, idealistic, left-wing, extremist, tripe.

Tell us. How many immigrants are you personally willing to house and feed yourself?

47.

(free market economics is fairly right wing, I'm pretty sure btw, read it on the door of a bathroom stall, so it's gotta be true.)

Eugene Norman · 13-08-2015 01:17AM

Stheno wrote: »

We do have min. wage laws to prevent selling people out.

If you work in a job where someone will do it on min. wage then that's the value of the job

No minimum wage laws would survive the open borders movements that are being talked about here.

But the real problems are that there is a protected sector. I compete with the world in my job, and I can. Do teachers? Journalists? Barristers and solicitors?

I'm not a huge fan of modern disruptive technology either, as the problem that uber is solving benefits slightly the already privileged ( taxi users) and decimates wages for others. Most people are unskilled or semi skilled. The world wages for most people is just above subsistence.

Eugene Norman · 13-08-2015 01:19AM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Naive, idealistic, left-wing, extremist, tripe.

Tell us. How many immigrants are you personally willing to house and feed yourself?

I'm pretty sure that he isn't a left winger. I am but an old school "organised labour" type ( screw identity politics). The real powers behind open borders are right wing ideologues and billionaires.

OneOfThem · 13-08-2015 01:22AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that he isn't a left winger. I am but an old school "organised labour" type ( screw identity politics). The real powers behind open borders are right wing ideologues and billionaires.

See I'm neither right or left wing. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. I'm a fan of man.

RichardCeann · 13-08-2015 01:22AM

When 'humanitarians' such as Peter Sutherland, the International Chairman of Goldman Sachs, are calling for open borders, then you know something is afoot.

Immigration Just Affects the Poor, The Rich Benefit, Easy to Shout Racism.

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