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Immigration Just Affects the Poor, The Rich Benefit, Easy to Shout Racism.

RichardCeann

David McWilliams wrote an article in this weekends SBP calling for a debate on immigration. It's a very well written and thoughtful piece. The first time I've read something on this issue, in an Irish publication, that appears to take both sides equally. In my mind, the last two paragraphs hit the nail on the head :

"These are the facts. Immigration is a class issue, and the richer you are, the greater the luxury you have to pontificate about immigration because you are not affected – or if you are, you are affected positively.

When the relatively poor – those who are threatened by immigrants – voice their concerns, it is far too easy for the rich to dismiss these people as “racist’ or “xenophobic”, whereas maybe they are just voicing everyday real concerns. One thing is clear: immigration is going to increase in the years ahead. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to talk about it, warts and all?"

Full article here: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2015/08/10/why-immigration-is-a-class-issue

It is the working class or those in more menial employment who see unparalleled competition in the labour market, their wages being surpressed, driven down and not increasing, social housing becoming unavailable(>5 years or even more to get a 'starter' home), the demand for school places not meeting supply in their areas etc.

Hopefully McWilliams' article will lead to the issue being discussed in Leinster House and fairly within the media. The demographic change Ireland has experienced over the past fifteen years has been extraordinary. We have went from having one of the most homogenous populations in the EU15 to having the fifth highest immigrant population, per capita, in the EU 28. Yet our elected representatives have not discussed or debated this change and the ramifications of it.

That has to change and McWilliams' input is most welcome.

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Eugene Norman

OneOfThem wrote: »

What's your reason for thinking that? Which countries' private sector middle classes have been destroyed by immigration? What's your basis? What's your model based on?

Look there only so much of your below average IQ arguments I am going to listen to. You support fully open borders. You believe that if someone can undercut you then so be it. Join the dots. The world wage is much lower than the average western wage. Work out what happens if there are no restrictions.

As for the present day where we don't have a full open borders anywhere, wages have stagnated or fallen for the bottom 20%, in most studies of immigration. Some skilled workers benefit because of the networking effect, and because capital follows labour. The unskilled don't. Protected labour does, regardless of skills. Rentiers and profiteers extract more rent and profit.

You will remain all right Jack. Now try and think in a general sense.

Eugene Norman

OneOfThem wrote: »

See I'm neither right or left wing. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. I'm a fan of man.

You seem to be a fan of yourself. Which is one man, to be fair.

omicron

Stheno wrote: »

We do have min. wage laws to prevent selling people out.

If you work in a job where someone will do it on min. wage then that's the value of the job

You obviously haven't much experience of minimum wage in Ireland. Like where people get breaks deducted from wages but can't take breaks, or get 50c an hour deducted for meals they don't get to eat, or get told to clock out at 8 but work til 10. Minimum wage isn't enforced.

OneOfThem

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Look there only so much of your below average IQ arguments I am going to listen to. You support fully open borders. You believe that if someone can undercut you then so be it. Join the dots. The world wage is much lower than the average western wage. Work out what happens if there are no restrictions.

As for the present day where we don't have a full open borders anywhere, wages have stagnated or fallen for the bottom 20%, in most studies of immigration. Some skilled workers benefit because of the networking effect, and because capital follows labour. The unskilled don't. Protected labour does, regardless of skills. Rentiers and profiteers extract more rent and profit.

You will remain all right Jack. Now try and think in a general sense.

Eugene Norman wrote: »

You seem to be a fan of yourself. Which is one man, to be fair.

So I'm selfish and of a low IQ. Granted. Now try to put forward an argument that explains why those two things are true. Or better yet. Try to support your position. I'll wait Eugene. Take your time. Try not to hurt yourself. And attack the ball, not the man. It's not big and it's not clever.

I'm off to bed. Work in the morning.

NachoBusiness

OneOfThem wrote: »

See I'm neither right or left wing. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. I'm a fan of man.

A humanist? No, you're not.

Open borders would bring nothing but misery and suffering and would help nobody in the long run as it would just destroy the very countries that these people are looking to have a future in. It wouldn't be a case of biting the hand that feed, it would be a case of dismantling it as mass immigration into this country would destroy our infrastructure on almost every level. We can barely afford our social welfare bill as it is. Even if that didn't happen, it would still take many many decades for immigrants to become self sufficient and so who would pay the welfare and health bill in the interim?

Calling for open borders in a world were over a billion people are oppressed and suffering within their own countries, is about as ridiculous a political view as one can have. Loose immigration policy (never mind open borders) has already led to disastrous consequences in countries like France where there is 40% unemployment in certain parts of the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkhubEsuTSM

[Deleted User]

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

Easy for Doug Stanhope today given his particular niche of white, middle class, native English speaking comedian. If that market was suddenly flooded with equally competent outsiders he would feel very differently I'd imagine.

Exactly the point McWilliams was making as I understand it.

buried

If the EU wants less immigration from countries such as Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan then the EU should kick up a bit more fuss and call a halt when The USA and its vested business interests decide to wage war up in the likes of Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan, instead of just lying down like braindead saps, and allowing georgie obama and barack bush to do whatever they want to do on our side of the world.

F**king pathetic. Blame the poor ordinary person trying to escape the war zone where that person and their family are trying to flee from instead of blaming the actual F**king reason why the war zone was created in the first place

KomradeBishop

OneOfThem wrote: »

See I'm neither right or left wing. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. I'm a fan of man.

Hell even the Humanist's are only a shadow of their former selves - they used to be heavily left-wing:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/28/how-the-humanist-movement-fosters-economic-injustice/

TLDR - the humanist movement is leaning towards passive pro-corporatism these days, and has almost completely abandoned all 'economic justice' issues, being hollowed out where it comes to politics surrounding economics.

KomradeBishop

While I think outright open borders would be a bad idea, there's nothing wrong with mass-immigration, so long as the people coming are working.

If you combine large scale immigration, with proper jobs programs leaving nobody unemployed, then it can provide a massive net-benefit to the country (which is perfectly possible, it just means normal quality of life when private sector is at full employment, and reduced quality of life when private sector is not employing everyone, as we would all be sharing the burden of keeping every last person employed at those times).

Ireland used to have a much larger population, and there's no reason we can't sustain it again.

A Primal Nut

It's quite frustrating when left wing media such as the Guardian constantly complain about increasing inequality but at the same time advocate open borders (such as demanding that UK take all the migrants from Calais in legally) which of course increases inequality further because all these migrants are poorer than the average Brit. And obviously, what they want for Britain they want for Ireland too. If you want an equal society, you should be calling for less immigration which keeps our wages and working conditions up.

It's always interesting that many of these migrants have very conservative beliefs, often the opposite extreme from the liberals who want them to come here.

A Primal Nut

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If you combine large scale immigration, with proper jobs programs leaving nobody unemployed

What's a proper job program that would leave nobody umemployed?

OMD

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Ireland used to have a much larger population, and there's no reason we can't sustain it again.

When did Ireland sustain a much larger population? During the famine?
Maybe you need to define sustain.

suicide_circus

A Primal Nut wrote: »

What's a proper job program that would leave nobody umemployed?

Like the job programmes which operated in the soviet union I'd imagine.

conorhal

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

A popular quote and a facetious one.
What does Doug have to say about those that don't achieve £h1t? Has he anything to say about migrant ghettos with chronically underemployed populations living in the 9th Century ans supported by the welfare state?
And most importantly does 'ol Doug have anything to say about what we should do with such under achieving migrants?

No? Thought not.

conorhal

suicide_circus wrote: »

Like the job programmes which operated in the soviet union I'd imagine.

The ones in which 'people pretended to work and the state pretended to pay them'? That worked well.......

[Deleted User]

Is he not only rehashing the argument used by all right wing groups, but packaging it in a nicer class oriented way. Racism isn't racism, it's fear based on legitimate concerns about threats to job security. It would be fair to say racism also exists amongst the numbers who never worked a day in their lives.

He also seems to overlook other positives from immigration and increased demand for services, here in South Kerry the increased numbers have seen new hospitals, schools etc. finally delivered after years of watching them fall down as numbers fled from the county.

conorhal

Deleted User wrote: »

Is he not only rehashing the argument used by all right wing groups, but packaging it in a nicer class oriented way. Racism isn't racism, it's fear based on legitimate concerns about threats to job security. It would be fair to say racism also exists amongst the numbers who never worked a day in their lives.

He also seems to overlook other positives from immigration and increased demand for services, here in South Kerry the increased numbers have seen new hospitals, schools etc. finally delivered after years of watching them fall down as numbers fled from the county.

Williams has written extensively about the positives, he's acknowledging however that there are, especially in recessionary times, also negatives, a fact that seems to go right over the head of our policy makers who insist 'only positive depictions of immigration are allowed'.

Alexis Sanchez

Social democrat, Bernie Sanders, is opposed to open boarders because the wealthy exploit them for cheap labour. Here's what he said in an interview for Vox (which seems to disagree with him):

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders

So I was disappointed, if not surprised, at the visceral horror with which Bernie Sanders reacted to the idea when interviewed by my colleague Ezra Klein. "Open borders?" he interjected. "No, that's a Koch brothers proposal." The idea, he argued, is a right-wing scheme meant to flood the US with cheap labor and depress wages for native-born workers. "I think from a moral responsibility, we've got to work with the rest of the industrialized world to address the problems of international poverty," he conceded, "but you don't do that by making people in this country even poorer."

Sanders is dead right. When a wealthy man is calling for mass immigration, he's only doing to drive down wages in his company/companies and earn himself more money.

[Deleted User]

Alexis Sanchez wrote: »

When a wealthy man is calling for mass immigration, he's only doing to drive down wages in his company/companies and earn himself more money.

What wealthy person in Ireland has called for "mass immigration"?

And how do these Koch Brothers they get so many Mexicans and others to participate in their ruse?

Migration is just one of those things. People will try to better themselves and move. To suggest it's part of some capitalist conspiracy seems a bit hysterical.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

timmyntc

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

First of all, globalization doesn't equal industry moving exclusively to SE Asia. In most cases it's more economical to have factories for whatever product in or very near where you intend to sell to. So although many American manufacturers have shipped off all the jobs to 'greener pastures', some do remain in America as its cheaper to produce your domestic product domestically in some cases. And it's in cases such as these that cheap immigrant labor will drive down wages and working conditions even further.

Secondly, Sanders isn't running for UN secretary general, he's running for POTUS. As a potential US president, it's sensible that he put his own countrymen first. He isn't here to end world hunger or inequality - he's trying to do right by his people, the people who (he hopes) will elect him to represent them. So there is no real political reason he should be concerned for the poor in other countries.

justchecked

OneOfThem wrote: »

A crap load of Polish (and others) immigrants came here and worked at my profession. Didn't effect me in the slightest. I am extraordinarily good at what I do. I made sure that I was. Immigrants were willing to work for a quarter of what I charged during the height of the recession. There were a lot of homegrown Irish willing to undercut me before the recent wave of immigration came to Ireland. I didn't lower my price and continued to make a living. I'm good at what I do. Better than most others. Therefore people pay me to do what I do as well as I do it. Had I found myself in a position whereby I was unable to earn what I wanted to earn doing what I do due to over saturation of the market. I'd have done something else.

What is this other than 'look at me im so great at my job' ?

Try to remember that Stanhope was doing a comedy act at the time, and that if he had to actually face a real general work labor market, a place outside of comedy, filled with immigrants ready to undercut him, as the shambles that he is, he'd be completely entirely fcked and his opinions would change overnight.

I imagine your own bad ass might have a sudden change of opinion if your market suddenly got saturated with people as 'extraordinary' as you.

Lastly, by associating being upper class in his article with being pro-immigration, and being lower class with being threatened by low skilled immigrants, McWilliams has probably just helped recruit an army of abercrombie kids to the pro-immigration cause.

It'll be the new chinos and leinster jersey of political opinions.

RichardCeann

Deleted User wrote: »

He also seems to overlook other positives from immigration and increased demand for services, here in South Kerry the increased numbers have seen new hospitals, schools etc. finally delivered after years of watching them fall down as numbers fled from the county.

An increase in the demand in state services is a good thing now? Tell that to someone of the housing list or someone trying to find a place in a semi decent school for their kids.

As for the new hospitals, schools etc finally being delivered in South Kerry, that wouldn't have anything to do with Fianna Fail needing Haely Rae on board to form a government in 2007, would it?

Boring username

Deleted User wrote: »

Is he not only rehashing the argument used by all right wing groups, but packaging it in a nicer class oriented way. Racism isn't racism, it's fear based on legitimate concerns about threats to job security. It would be fair to say racism also exists amongst the numbers who never worked a day in their lives.

He also seems to overlook other positives from immigration and increased demand for services, here in South Kerry the increased numbers have seen new hospitals, schools etc. finally delivered after years of watching them fall down as numbers fled from the county.

And you are aware that you are rehashing the old argument used by all leftie fanatics that anyone who dares question mass immigration is a racist™?

And how exactly has immigration resulted in hospitals and schools in South Kerry? These are resources that were already badly needed in the region, even during the Celtic Tiger. They weren't built due to a sudden influx of immigrants.

I'm not doubting that there are positives to immigration, but there are also negatives. And that includes putting already stretched resources under even more strain. What most people are starting to realise, as has already happened in the UK, is that mass, uncontrolled immigration is now a threat to a nations economy, resources, security, and population.

And that's before we even begin discussing asylum seekers or economic migrants, who won't be working and costing the state even more money in terms of housing, resources, food, travel etc. Wasn't it interesting that in the same week three ministers were out in Malta agreeing to take on 600 asylum seekers, we had over 600 residents here in Ireland homeless? I bet the 600 asylum seekers won't be living on the streets though.

RichardCeann

Deleted User wrote: »

What wealthy person in Ireland has called for "mass immigration"?

The International Chairman of Goldman Sachs, Peter 'the EU should undermine national homogeneity' Sutherland.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

topper75

OneOfThem wrote: »

I'd agree with Doug Stanhope on the issue. If someone from a foreign country and culture, speaking English as a second language, can arrive in this country, and achieve for themselves a better outcome than I, me with the home advantage, then the fvckers deserve it. They are clearly just better than me.

That is overly simplistic and there is more to it than that.
We all appreciate the justness of a meritocracy. However, immigrants and natives are not working off the same base. For example, a native Irish worker has a committed interest in Ireland and will have bought a house and have fixed costs to pay over the long term. We have seen how many immigrants opt for low-rent accommodation often sleeping a few per bedroom, sharing bills, and can move on at a moment's notice to another town. The cost base is not the same. The commitments and tie-downs are not the same. This ultimately allows the immigrant to undercut, whether that be an hourly wage demand for flipping burgers or a price to tile a bathroom. When you take this into account, the "Fair play to them" or "better than me" attitude is a little bit misguided and is tantamount to turkeys voting for Christmas.

crockholm

This is where the Right Wing and I part company.I see Ireland as more than just an economy.To me it is a lot more than just an open economy in a loose federation of European states.The right wing seems to think that because I'm a lowly tradesman,if I can't compete with foreign labour doing the same job as me,I have no business in the trade.

I have now had the misfortune of seeing this mindset in both Ireland and Sweden.Tradesmen,who used to have a good wage working direct for the company being replaced by agency workers/drones from the East on less money on short term contracts.

Chips Lovell

It's dubious to assert immigrants increase pressure on state services since the evidence actually points the other way. For example, as Trinity professor Brian Lucey recently said, immigrants tend to be net contributors:

Brian Lucey, professor of finance at Trinity College Dublin, said there has been no conclusive evidence to link inward migration to a general depression of wages in Ireland.

In fact, he said, there was a growing body of research which shows migrants tend to be net contributors to the economy and are often less likely to claim benefits.

Something similar was pointed out by economist Ronan Lyons a few years ago after the FG mayor of Limerick went off on a bit of an anti-immigrant tirade:

Lastly, the “new Irish” in total haven’t cost us a cent since they arrived, in net terms. In fact, they’ve made substantial net contributions to the Government finances, thereby easing the burden for Irish taxpayers. Looking purely at the employment/unemployment numbers, and assuming their earnings profile is relatively close to the average manufacturing wage (which is lower than the economy-wide average), these people are currently “costing” the Exchequer about €32m a month in unemployment benefits. Meanwhile, they’re bringing in, through PRSI and income tax, somewhere in the region €75m a month.

ancapailldorcha

If it's so obvious that immigration is driving down wages then why don't the likes of McWilliams, Farage, etc cite studies to back themselves up?