The Dark side of the game.

dxhound2005

Back in 2001 the GAA were so worried about the apparently new disease of players diving and feigning injury that they got a committe together to come up with some appropriate sanctions to stamp out this virus. This piece in the Independent could have been written this week, not 2001. Nothing new under the sun.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-plans-radical-remedy-for-footballs-cheating-virus-26081203.html

Jayop

I'm tempted to click.

TCDStudent1

Jayop wrote: »

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.balls.ie/gaa/gifs-following-michael-shields-fall-recalling-3-other-notorious-dives-in-the-gaa/302098

If anything, that link has convinced me that now is the time to start clamping down on these incidents. Sure it's hard on McCann to get punished when the others were not. But I think that's better than allowing this kind of behaviour to continue. Somebody somewhere has to be punished to set a precedent to stop this stuff from happening. McCann seems to be the unlucky one, but ultimately he still only has himself to blame.

If action isn't taken against McCann, then the next time there is an incident like this, somebody can add the McCann video to the above list and say "sure look everybody gets away with it". And on and on we go until we accept it as the norm in the game. And I do not think that any supporter wants this behaviour to be the norm.


**************************************

As for sledging, I think this is one of the hardest things to police. Like, when does sledging actually cross a line? Paidi O'Sé spoke about his famous spat with Dinny Allen a while back. He explained how Allen was doing well and said to him "They will be taking you off soon". To me, that is not sledging. But when do verbal comments become sledging? Does it have to be something as personal and vindictive as the death of a family member? Its very difficult to define a line as to when the verbals cross that line into sledging.

Jayop

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

If anything, that link has convinced me that now is the time to start clamping down on these incidents. Sure it's hard on McCann to get punished when the others were not. But I think that's better than allowing this kind of behaviour to continue. Somebody somewhere has to be punished to set a precedent to stop this stuff from happening. McCann seems to be the unlucky one, but ultimately he still only has himself to blame.

If action isn't taken against McCann, then the next time there is an incident like this, somebody can add the McCann video to the above list and say "sure look everybody gets away with it". And on and on we go until we accept it as the norm in the game. And I do not think that any supporter wants this behaviour to be the norm.


**************************************

As for sledging, I think this is one of the hardest things to police. Like, when does sledging actually cross a line? Paidi O'Sé spoke about his famous spat with Dinny Allen a while back. He explained how Allen was doing well and said to him "They will be taking you off soon". To me, that is not sledging. But when do verbal comments become sledging? Does it have to be something as personal and vindictive as the death of a family member? Its very difficult to define a line as to when the verbals cross that line into sledging.

As for your first part of the post I don't think that's the case at all. If a new rule is introduced properly and communicated to everyone that diving will get you a long ban then anyone who does it deserves what they get.

The first person to get a black card didn't say "but Sean Cavanagh didn't get one".

Tom Joad

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

If anything, that link has convinced me that now is the time to start clamping down on these incidents. Sure it's hard on McCann to get punished when the others were not. But I think that's better than allowing this kind of behaviour to continue. Somebody somewhere has to be punished to set a precedent to stop this stuff from happening. McCann seems to be the unlucky one, but ultimately he still only has himself to blame.

If action isn't taken against McCann, then the next time there is an incident like this, somebody can add the McCann video to the above list and say "sure look everybody gets away with it". And on and on we go until we accept it as the norm in the game. And I do not think that any supporter wants this behaviour to be the norm.


**************************************

As for sledging, I think this is one of the hardest things to police. Like, when does sledging actually cross a line? Paidi O'Sé spoke about his famous spat with Dinny Allen a while back. He explained how Allen was doing well and said to him "They will be taking you off soon". To me, that is not sledging. But when do verbal comments become sledging? Does it have to be something as personal and vindictive as the death of a family member? Its very difficult to define a line as to when the verbals cross that line into sledging.

I'm not too sure off the rulebook on sledging but there is a rule that covers sectarian abuse Rule 7.2 (ix) specifies a Category IV infraction as: “An act by deed, word or gesture of a racist, sectarian or anti-inclusion/diversity nature.” Gearoid McKiernan got a 2 match ban under this rule earlier this year but that's the only one I've heard off and it was at a match in January where you could hear the players talking to each other it was so quiet so obviously the ref heard the comment. In Croke Park I imagine that's virtually impossible.

Would agree that it is difficult to define the line and also difficult to prove it's happened - that's why it's the last resort of a coward.

Jayop

Tom Joad wrote: »

I'm not too sure off the rulebook on sledging but there is a rule that covers sectarian abuse Rule 7.2 (ix) specifies a Category IV infraction as: “An act by deed, word or gesture of a racist, sectarian or anti-inclusion/diversity nature.” Gearoid McKiernan got a 2 match ban under this rule earlier this year but that's the only one I've heard off and it was at a match in January where you could hear the players talking to each other it was so quiet so obviously the ref heard the comment. In Croke Park I imagine that's virtually impossible.

Would agree that it is difficult to define the line and also difficult to prove it's happened - that's why it's the last resort of a coward.

A bit of talking and goading is fine. Talking about someone's religion, colour, sexuality, family or things of that nature are not.

TCDStudent1

Tom Joad wrote: »

I'm not too sure off the rulebook on sledging but there is a rule that covers sectarian abuse Rule 7.2 (ix) specifies a Category IV infraction as: “An act by deed, word or gesture of a racist, sectarian or anti-inclusion/diversity nature.” Gearoid McKiernan got a 2 match ban under this rule earlier this year but that's the only one I've heard off and it was at a match in January where you could hear the players talking to each other it was so quiet so obviously the ref heard the comment. In Croke Park I imagine that's virtually impossible.

Would agree that it is difficult to define the line and also difficult to prove it's happened - that's why it's the last resort of a coward.

Aah I missed that Gearoid McKiernan story (or have just forgotten). Really, there is a responsibility on players and management here. You just cant be relying on the referee for everything.

TCDStudent1

Jayop wrote: »

A bit of talking and goading is fine. Talking about someone's religion, colour, sexuality, family or things of that nature are not.

Still think its very hard to define a line to be honest. There will always be grey areas.

Grudaire

There was opportunities earlier in the Tyrone game where seemingly crippled Tyrone players made miraculous recoveries when no free was awarded and the ball remained in play.

I would like to see the rule applied first before creating extra rules, begin at the start of the game giving yellow cards for feigning offences and it'll cut out a lot of the nonsense.

Rasputin11

Dermot Shortt of Offaly got Seamus Callanan sent off in the league quarter final this year by throwing himself to the ground after minimal contact, it's not a football only problem.

rebel girl 15

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

It is already covered in the rulebook - diving is a yellow card offence - see GAA Rules & Regulations, point 4 under Cautionable Infractions (Yellow Cards) - 4. To attempt to achieve an advantage by feigning a foul or injury.

Introducing a retrospective 8 week ban for a yellow card offence is madness of the highest order and complete populism on behalf of the CCCC, if true! It sets a very dangerous precedent.

It is not for the yellow card offense - the GAA are banning him under the rule where is states about bringing the association into disrepute. Duffy or one of his team must have seen him hit the deck, and did not issue a yellow for feigning injury. I'd like to see the ban being upheld, simply as a high profile stamp down by the GAA on feigning injury, and it was a high profile case. The Monaghan player was already gone before he did it, so the yellow card rule doesn't really apply here, he wasn't doing it to gain an advantage as such. It does take a case like this, where it was clear he was bringing the game into disrepute to set a precedence to stop other players from doing it.

As a body the CCCC is seen by GAA people as spineless, the number of cards and bans overturned by them unreal, and is putting unfair pressure on referees who know that decisions that they make on the pitch will more than likely be overturned, which doesn't help anybody respect referees.

Going back to the dark arts, there seems to be a win at all costs mentality developing in Tyrone. Many teams have pushed the rulebook, but they seem to be at the forefront pushing it more than most. Off the top of my head recently you had a referee and county official at a ladies game being assaulted, wasn't there a county player who had his jaw broken at a club game, the U21 final and the incidents around there, and the sledging incident with the Donegal player. You have to stand back and admire (maybe admire is the wrong word) Tyrone for doing it, I know its not within the ethos of the game or is moral at times, but if you think you can get away with it, and you do get away with it in games and it gives you the smallest advantage, you are going to do it until you are stopped. The GAA at times not strong enough to enforce big decisions - I would be surprised if the ban was upheld but happy it would be.

dixiefly

wackokid wrote: »

Why are people missing the fact that Hughes was RED carded for his dangerous tackle on Colm Cavanagh and NOT for his hairdressing skills. Duffy already had the red card in his greasy little paw before McCann went down.
The game is already in disrepute and it's not because of the players. Croke Park take a bow.

Wacko, is that true? I read somewhere that the referees report said Hughes was sent off for hitting McCann. Thee has been so much floating around on this issue that I cannot recall where I read it.

Jippo

wackokid wrote: »

Why are people missing the fact that Hughes was RED carded for his dangerous tackle on Colm Cavanagh and NOT for his hairdressing skills. Duffy already had the red card in his greasy little paw before McCann went down.
The game is already in disrepute and it's not because of the players. Croke Park take a bow.

Is there evidence for this either way (for striking or the tackle)?

I can't see how the tackle could be construed as a red card TBH.

BonnieSituation

James Horan on OTB saying that the CCCC decision is crazy and that Tyrone are being hung out to dry all because of media bias

Royal Legend

Jippo wrote: »

Is there evidence for this either way (for striking or the tackle)?

I can't see how the tackle could be construed as a red card TBH.

was he already on a yellow? second yellow and red, as Horan said, if he was sent off for the McCann incident, then why are they not looking at Duffy?

Jayop

Royal Legend wrote: »

was he already on a yellow? second yellow and red, as Horan said, if he was sent off for the McCann incident, then why are they not looking at Duffy?

My thoughts on what Duffy did was that he was probably going to give him a black for the tackle which was correct. He hauled Colm to the ground. He then probably added the yellow to the black for the hair pull.

I don't know if Duffy could have produced a black then a yellow or a yellow then a black to make the red but neither on their own was worthy of a red. Together they might just have done.

It's pure speculation on my part.

BonnieSituation

Royal Legend wrote: »

was he already on a yellow? second yellow and red, as Horan said, if he was sent off for the McCann incident, then why are they not looking at Duffy?

Well this is the big question and this is why you have got to really question the CCCC in all of this. It looks like they are trying to keep Duffy clean in all of this.

paddy no 11

People have to be responsible for their actions and McCann's at the weekend brought the game into disrepute and he cant blame anyone else, not the cccc, hughes nobody but himself.

He should have seen the embarrassment on his team mates face who received a black card when an attempt to feign injury went wrong and he received a black card when he dragged an opponent to the ground. McCann couldn't take the warning and focus on football and now his antics have left him embarrassed and suspended.

This was not a spur of the moment thing, McCann eventually received a black card himself, his actions in that incident were pitiful, falling around with his hands by his side while crashing into monaghan players hoping to draw a response from them, his actions were pre meditated and he doesn't deserve our sympathies (unless this behaviour was encouraged by others which it may well have been given the behaviour of some other tyrone players)

You cannot defend the indefensible with the indefensible, and dives by other players cant be brought into it (though id have no problem with shields being banned also)

Last Saturday was an embarrassment to the GAA and im glad that action is being taken, we cannot let the AL semi final and final go the same way

Bottom line is the game is more important than any player

Stoner

paddy no 11 wrote: »

his actions in that incident were pitiful, falling around with his hands by his side while crashing into monaghan players hoping to draw a response from them,

that is very well put , I've supported the position of the Tyrone posters here WRT to it being unfair to punish one player differently for something similar to an action another player from a different team took.

My main issue was really the tarnishing different Tyrone teams with this and discrediting their old victories.

However when you put it like that, I've never seen anyone carry on or try to draw a reaction as blatantly as this before.

That said I've seen players run the length of the pitch grab people by the throat, or just hop into them while keeping their hands at their sides.

What happened at the weekend was a step further, yet the association has let many instances similar but not as blatant go unpunished before this.

If the ban stands the player can't blame anyone but himself. The other examples like Shields and JOD while arguably similar were in a different category, particularly JOD.

This player rolled a dice and took it to another level.

I still have an issue though with the GAA now deciding that this behavior is worthy of retrospective action. Should it inspire change? yes IMHO

We've seen lads deliver silly harmless slaps before and get sent off. They might as well have delivered a damaging punch. The message in that case is clear, you are off. Therefore players know that striking a player will get you sent off even if you don't hurt them.

Interfering with the visor in hurling is another example of a clear rule enforcing a clear position by the association.

The association is well able to get a message to players. Up to now we've all known that once you keep your hands by your side you can get involved.

But now who decides that you can't combine that with rolling around from one player to the next.

It was the worst case of this that I've seen, but up to that the association let it slide. The GAA could have punished less blatant actions like this before, but didn't.

The lad is far from blameless, but a message from the GAA that they are going to stamp this out with new rules in place for 2016 would have done the trick IMO.
The association have to recognize their lack of action and direction up to this point and note that they failed to communicate clearly to the players that such actions are outside the rules of the game.

If if take my own county as an example, if Dublin played Kerry tomorrow and hopping into a player while keeping your hands by your side earned a punishment then there would be at least 11 players sent off.

5 from Dublin and 6 from Kerry

All joking aside, all teams have players that goad the opposition with their hands firmly held by their side, I assume its instructed by their management but its certainly largely overlooked

All teams don't have players who just slap players because punching them will get you a suspension while the slap is an acceptable action.

The association should have been stronger on this before now and shown a bit of vision and recognized that it was inevitable that it was going to be pushed to this level.

We can argue all we want about this being a different rule that's being used here, ie bringing the game into disrepute, but it is the actions like diving and the ones named above that summed to the offence here so we are entitled to discuss them IMHO.

My main point stands, why wait until now, there have been plenty of opportunities to nip this in the bud.

wackokid

Paddy you are bringing this forum into disrepute for what ever reason.
Eoin Liston is bringing the Indo into the same thing but that wasn't difficult as it's hardly a reputable paper anyway.
Here's what he wrote it today's offering and presumably got well paid for it?

"He dived and got a Monaghan player sent off in an All-Ireland quarter-final, an incident that left a knot in the stomach of me and, I'd say, most GAA people watching."

That statement is palpably wrong as Marty Duffy already had the RED card out for Hughes crunching low tackle on Colm Cavanagh on his way out to clear a ball which he claimed out of the clouds. McCann most likely said something less than complimentary to Hughes who reacted with a 'girlish' hair pull. Hardly the action of a warrior. Yes, McCann didn't act honourably either but his action was less likely to dishonour the game that Hughes' hard man act.

McManus did a much more disreputable thing in the 68th minute when he conned Duffy by blatantly pulling Ronan McNamee's jersey down on top of him to earn a free which he converted. McNamee got a YELLOW card for that and another one later for questioning Marty when the other shennanagings were going on, and of course a RED.
Later he conned Marty again to get another close in free and wasn't happy with that, so hit Sean Cavanagh a flake with his elbow into the ribs because he clearly told him he was a cheat.
Does that constitute bringing the game into disrepute? In the name of God these things go on day in day out in GAA top end matches but to single out McCann for this media and GAA hostility is way OTT in my opinion as well as the obvious Kerry hatred of anything Tyrone. We all know why, but they should be men enough to take their beatings in '03, '05 and '08 and stop this constant harping on the 'Dark Arts' of Tyrone.

The 'Bomber' and the 'Indo' would be wise to watch a re run of that game and apologise to Tiernan McCann. They could start by listening to that boring monotone SKY commentator as he clearly states and I quote " Darren Hughes is taking the long walk for that challenge" and he wasn't talking about his hair pulling skills as that sentence came before the McCann incident.
Might be a day or two in Court later me thinks.

2moreMinutes

It's actually laughable at this stage how little things are grabbed and expanded upon to try to muddy the waters or to justify the pathetic actions of last weekend.

Was the collapsing to the ground better or worse if the red card wasn't as a direct result of it?
Is collapsing to the ground over nothing perfectly ok so long as another player isn't reprimanded as a result?

tanko

2moreMinutes wrote: »

It's actually laughable at this stage how little things are grabbed and expanded upon to try to muddy the waters or to justify the pathetic actions of last weekend.

Was the collapsing to the ground better or worse if the red card wasn't as a direct result of it?
Is collapsing to the ground over nothing perfectly ok so long as another player isn't reprimanded as a result?

The "pathetic actions of last weekend" have been going on for years in the football championship and the disciplinary powers that be in the GAA didn't pass any remarks. Surely the reason couldn't be that it depends which county the culprit comes from that determines whether they're punished or not?

Apparently collapsing to the ground over nothing has been ok for lots of players but not if they happen to be from Tyrone.

Realt Dearg Sec

tanko wrote: »

The "pathetic actions of last weekend" have been going on for years in the football championship and the disciplinary powers that be in the GAA didn't pass any remarks. Surely the reason couldn't be that it depends which county the culprit comes from that determines whether they're punished or not?

This idea that it's just targeting Tyrone for no reason whatsoever other than that they're Tyrone is laughable. Why do you think people would target Tyrone? What would you imagine is the problem everyone has with them. As I mentioned before, I'm from Kilkenny, I couldn't give a sh1te who wins or loses in football, so you needn't go looking for an agenda in what I'm saying, but objectively, I've never seen anything as pathetic as what McCann did, ever, on a GAA field. It severely undermined the game. And no it wasn't the first time someone's done it, but it's nothing to do with being from Tyrone either. Ye should get that out of yer heads.

cournioni

As pathetic as the dive was, I still believe Hughes deserved a red card for what he did. He (nor any GAA player) had no business raising his hands and attempting to pull another players hair.

It is equally as pathetic as the dive and I am glad the referee took action and sent him off. It is a shame that footballers end up resorting to this rubbish and not focusing on their own game.

thesultan

Fella's running into the tackling hand and dropping down. Sean Cavanagh is master at it. A hands across the chest is not a foul. Blow the players for over carrying. Eoin McGrath was a master at it in hurling as good oceans of soft frees.

wackokid

cournioni wrote: »

As pathetic as the dive was, I still believe Hughes deserved a red card for what he did. He (nor any GAA player) had no business raising his hands and attempting to pull another players hair.

It is equally as pathetic as the dive and I am glad the referee took action and sent him off. It is a shame that footballers end up resorting to this rubbish and not focusing on their own game.

He got the red card for his assault on Colm Cavanagh. Listen to the commentary and watch the incident.

Jippo

wackokid wrote: »

He got the red card for his assault on Colm Cavanagh. Listen to the commentary and watch the incident.

Assault???!! Have you proof of this (that the ref sent him off for the "assault")? Have you seen the ref's report?

I would have thought the ref was thinking black. Was Hughes on yellow and would have gotten a red because of that?

It actually shouldn't matter (whether Hughes got sent off or not) but the fact of the matter is that not half as much was made of Shields' incident because the referee saw what happened. McCann is getting a raw deal no doubt.

Paulzx

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

. Really, there is a responsibility on players and management here. You just cant be relying on the referee for everything.

Exactly!!


No matter what rules are amended/introduced etc. the buck for the antics we are starting to witness regularly has to stop at the players and/or the coaches that condone it.

By all means ensure that there are proper consequences that are clear and unambiguous but there are always ways and means around rules. To this end there has to be responsability taken by the players on the field of play irrespective of whether there is a rule to cover an offence.

There's "right" and there's "wrong" and you don't have to constantly break rules in order to win.

I also agree that the "ruffling" of someones hair is provocative, and a goading action in it's own right. It's as much of an act of gamesmanship as the dive that followed it.

wackokid

Jippo wrote: »

Assault???!! Have you proof of this (that the ref sent him off for the "assault")? Have you seen the ref's report?

I would have thought the ref was thinking black. Was Hughes on yellow and would have gotten a red because of that?

It actually shouldn't matter (whether Hughes got sent off or not) but the fact of the matter is that not half as much was made of Shields' incident because the referee saw what happened. McCann is getting a raw deal no doubt.

No, I didn't see the refs report, but did see the assault and heard the SKY commentator say " Hughes is for the long walk after that tackle"

Perhaps you will know why that great warrior Paul Geaney thought it necessary to welt into Shields? He is one nasty piece of goods and will get his comeuppance soon.

dixiefly

wackokid wrote: »

No, I didn't see the refs report, but did see the assault and heard the SKY commentator say " Hughes is for the long walk after that tackle"

Perhaps you will know why that great warrior Paul Geaney thought it necessary to welt into Shields? He is one nasty piece of goods and will get his comeuppance soon.

Wacko,
I asked you the question before also, at least you have attempted to answer it here. However you are saying with almost certainty that Hughes was not sent off for the McCann incident. You dont know, I think he was and we will have to wait to see what comes from the report.

However, it doesnt change the fact that Tiernan behaviour was pathetic and he cheated. Why he did it only he knows.