Match Thread: Monaghan v Tyrone, Saturday 4pm *MOD WARNING #178*

doc_17

aveytare wrote: »

Gavin Devlin, he was centre-half back in 2003 but was always a bit too slow - I don't think he played for Tyrone again after being taken to the cleaners in the first half of the 2005 quarter-final against Dublin.

Oh I know full well who he is! But if I was a manager I would be in control of how my selectors behaved. If they are getting involved consistently then it's because they are instructed to it by the manager.

But no team is full of saints and if it gives them the edge then they will continue to do it!

seligehgit

Just watched the game back,Conor McManus was truly outstanding again.His freetaking was sublime and and scores from general play were worth the admission fee considering the amount of attention he courted.He'd walk onto any team in the country.

thesultan

Was talking to a fella at the game who said that McManus had two sweepers in front of him and another two ahead of that, There's attention.

doc_17

thesultan wrote: »

Was talking to a fella at the game who said that McManus had two sweepers in front of him and another two ahead of that, There's attention.

That's the same attention Paddy McBrearty got in Clones. But McManus is pure class.

aveytare

doc_17 wrote: »

Oh I know full well who he is! But if I was a manager I would be in control of how my selectors behaved. If they are getting involved consistently then it's because they are instructed to it by the manager.

But no team is full of saints and if it gives them the edge then they will continue to do it!

I wouldn't imagine he's told to make an eejit out of himself ha. He's essentially replaced Tony Donnelly (the guy with the moustache who always used to stand beside Harte) who was a model of politeness. Think Devlin's just a bit of a loony tbh, he was suspended for a game or two after the row against Donegal.

deni20000

munster87 wrote: »

Tyrone were filty today. It takes two teams to make a match that dirty but it's always seems that Tyrone is one of the teams

They did the same thing to Tipperary last year in the U21s - the most disliked team in the country.

Jayop

deni20000 wrote: »

They did the same thing to Tipperary last year in the U21s - the most disliked team in the country.

Welcome to the forum. You're first post is completely wrong so it can only get better from here.

Did you actually watch that u21 game or are you just relaying something that you heard in the pub?

irishguitarlad

Jayop wrote: »

Welcome to the forum. You're first post is completely wrong so it can only get better from here.

Did you actually watch that u21 game or are you just relaying something that you heard in the pub?

I wouldn't say he's wrong

Jayop

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I wouldn't say he's wrong

I would.

deni20000

Jayop wrote: »

Welcome to the forum. You're first post is completely wrong so it can only get better from here.

Did you actually watch that u21 game or are you just relaying something that you heard in the pub?

Yes I did watch it on TV.
Tyrone pulled and dragged, hit off the ball, dived and verbally abused a very good but naive Tipp side.
The Tipp manager should have prepared the team better as it was no secret that Tyrone were well known for these type of tactics and nothing much seems to have changed in the meantime.
They're getting away with it and it's working so why should they stop - I just hope it doesn't spread.

aveytare

deni20000 wrote: »

Yes I did watch it on TV.
Tyrone pulled and dragged, hit off the ball, dived and verbally abused a very good but naive Tipp side.
The Tipp manager should have prepared the team better as it was no secret that Tyrone were well known for these type of tactics and nothing much seems to have changed in the meantime.
They're getting away with it and it's working so why should they stop - I just hope it doesn't spread.

Their midfielder wasn't very naive when stamping on a Tyrone player in the first half. Don't know how he stayed on the pitch.

Jayop

So the Tipp u21 side were naive but the Tyrone side with players the same age and the same level of experience weren't? lol

Tipp were every bit as dirty in that game as Tyrone, every single bit. The Tipp manager acted the tool after the game and as a result of that it's been spun that Tyrone were filthy and Tipp were angels.

J Cheever Loophole

Looking back on the game, I thought Tyrone were by some distance the better team on the field. They were well worth their victory. There was an incisiveness to their play that allowed them to penetrate the Monaghan defence with much more success than Donegal enjoyed in Clones. Monaghan simply laboured at the other end of the field. They are too reliant on the genius of McManus, although he was still able to light up the match with occasional glimpses of greatness.

Trying to put the match and the result into perspective, my guess would be that what happened on Saturday night gives a true reflection on where Donegal and Monaghan are on the national stage, and both would have to be considered some way off the top. Where it puts Tyrone is more difficult to gauge, and it is likely that their joust with Kerry will really show us where they are. They are a team with pace and can win a lot of frees with their running at defences. They had an excellent kick out strategy in place that allowed Morgan to find his man around the wing half back positions. However they will struggle in the air against that Kerry midfield and I'd guess that Kerry will push up on their kick-outs to ensure that Morgan's kickouts head out around the middle. However I really expect Tyrone to give Kerry their fill of it.

As for the fall-out from the game, there was clearly no love lost between the neighbours, and that was reflected in a lot of what happened. As a neighbour of Monaghan myself, I have seen their own teams over the years employ the dark arts, and with the ship going down in injury time, there were challenges being made that brought reminders to me of household Monaghan names of the seventies and eighties.

And yet it is Tyrone who appear to be copping all (or the majority of) the blame. Why is that? All teams are cynical to some degree or another. I've seen none worse this year than Galway at the Athletic Grounds, who wound down the clock with a series of rugby tackles that saw two black cards in as many minutes.

For me, there is something about Tyrone's cynicism that is absolutely brazen. There is no effort to disguise it - it is there for all to see and it is completely unapologetic - it has the air of a team thumbing their nose at the rest of the GAA world. I recall saying the same after 'that' foul by Sean Cavanagh on Conor McManus in 2013. Yes, any player would have done something similar in the same position, but Cavanagh had spent the closing minutes of the previous game against Meath attempting to rugby tackle anything that moved, some eighty yards from the Tyrone goal, as they clung to a narrow lead.

Mickey Harte's first year in charge was 2003, when they won the All Ireland Final. That Summer was marked by much of what we saw on Saturday night - buying cheap frees and opponents being sent off for in dubious circumstances as Tyrone players fell dramatically clutching their faces. Greg McCartan and Diarmaid Marsden are examples.

My hope would be that referees get wise to this. Tyrone are definitely in the spotlight as we go forward and the referee the next day out is bound to have that on his mind as Sean Cavanagh hits the deck. As Colm O'Rourke said on TSG, it's possible that in the future Tyrone might be denied legitimate frees because of the reputation of the player fouled. I wonder would Greg McCartan or Diarmaid Marsden have a quiet smirk at the irony of that?

Jayop

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Looking back on the game, I thought Tyrone were by some distance the better team on the field. They were well worth their victory. There was an incisiveness to their play that allowed them to penetrate the Monaghan defence with much more success than Donegal enjoyed in Clones. Monaghan simply laboured at the other end of the field. They are too reliant on the genius of McManus, although he was still able to light up the match with occasional glimpses of greatness.

Trying to put the match and the result into perspective, my guess would be that what happened on Saturday night gives a true reflection on where Donegal and Monaghan are on the national stage, and both would have to be considered some way off the top. Where it puts Tyrone is more difficult to gauge, and it is likely that their joust with Kerry will really show us where they are. They are a team with pace and can win a lot of frees with their running at defences. They had an excellent kick out strategy in place that allowed Morgan to find his man around the wing half back positions. However they will struggle in the air against that Kerry midfield and I'd guess that Kerry will push up on their kick-outs to ensure that Morgan's kickouts head out around the middle. However I really expect Tyrone to give Kerry their fill of it.

As for the fall-out from the game, there was clearly no love lost between the neighbours, and that was reflected in a lot of what happened. As a neighbour of Monaghan myself, I have seen their own teams over the years employ the dark arts, and with the ship going down in injury time, there were challenges being made that brought reminders to me of household Monaghan names of the seventies and eighties.

And yet it is Tyrone who appear to be copping all (or the majority of) the blame. Why is that? All teams are cynical to some degree or another. I've seen none worse this year than Galway at the Athletic Grounds, who wound down the clock with a series of rugby tackles that saw two black cards in as many minutes.

For me, there is something about Tyrone's cynicism that is absolutely brazen. There is no effort to disguise it - it is there for all to see and it is completely unapologetic - it has the air of a team thumbing their nose at the rest of the GAA world. I recall saying the same after 'that' foul by Sean Cavanagh on Conor McManus in 2013. Yes, any player would have done something similar in the same position, but Cavanagh had spent the closing minutes of the previous game against Meath attempting to rugby tackle anything that moved, some eighty yards from the Tyrone goal, as they clung to a narrow lead.

Mickey Harte's first year in charge was 2003, when they won the All Ireland Final. That Summer was marked by much of what we saw on Saturday night - buying cheap frees and opponents being sent off for in dubious circumstances as Tyrone players fell dramatically clutching their faces. Greg McCartan and Diarmaid Marsden are examples.

My hope would be that referees get wise to this. Tyrone are definitely in the spotlight as we go forward and the referee the next day out is bound to have that on his mind as Sean Cavanagh hits the deck. As Colm O'Rourke said on TSG, it's possible that in the future Tyrone might be denied legitimate frees because of the reputation of the player fouled. I wonder would Greg McCartan or Diarmaid Marsden have a quiet smirk at the irony of that?

If your game plan is to run at defenders with the ball then it's incumbent on them not to drag you down. If someone is running at full tilt with the ball then it doesn't take much to take them down.

J Cheever Loophole

Jayop wrote: »

If your game plan is to run at defenders with the ball then it's incumbent on them not to drag you down. If someone is running at full tilt with the ball then it doesn't take much to take them down.

Equally, if a forward is looking for a free, then it doesn't take much to take them down.

Jayop

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Equally, if a forward is looking for a free, then it doesn't take much to take them down.

That's true but looking for a free isn't cheating. If you set a team up to run with the ball straight at a defence and the defence constantly put arms around your neck or drag you back then you're going to take the frees when you get them.

What's the point in bursting yourself to stay on your feet after being fouled enough to significantly slow you down to allow for other defenders to get into position?

Every single one of the free's Tyrone got yesterday was a foul. Every one of them.

J Cheever Loophole

Jayop wrote: »

That's true but looking for a free isn't cheating.

It is if you dive.

Jayop

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

It is if you dive.

It is, but the only dive from a Tyrone player was Mccann and that's a seperate thing to what we're talking about.

J Cheever Loophole

Jayop wrote: »

It is, but the only dive from a Tyrone player was Mccann and that's a seperate thing to what we're talking about.

Well agree to disagree. We could both analyse the one piece of footage and see two separate explanations. I believe that Tyrone are brilliant at buying frees - they go down very easily for my liking when they could well stay on their feet.

I get a sense from what you said earlier that you see this as expertly taking advantage of the conditions that present themselves - I just feel it is cheating.

Jayop

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Well agree to disagree. We could both analyse the one piece of footage and see two separate explanations. I believe that Tyrone are brilliant at buying frees - they go down very easily for my liking when they could well stay on their feet.

I get a sense from what you said earlier that you see this as expertly taking advantage of the conditions that present themselves - I just feel it is cheating.

Sorry, but tell my which of the incidents in particular were dives then. Cavanagh was accused of diving twice. Once he was dragged around the throat and the other he got a knee in the back and a punch on the head.

I'd love to know exactly which ones were dives.

J Cheever Loophole

Jayop wrote: »

Sorry, but tell my which of the incidents in particular were dives then. Cavanagh was accused of diving twice. Once he was dragged around the throat and the other he got a knee in the back and a punch on the head.

I'd love to know exactly which ones were dives.

No thanks. It would be a pointless exercise which would still leave us in disagreement.

harpsman

In terms of "cynicism/dirtyness/dark arts/dirty tricks" Tyrone of the Mickey Harte era are by far the worst offenders. They're not the most physically "dirty" because by and large theyre one of the smaller teams, but they make up for it with the sneaky, Knackery behaviour.
Just a selection of examples
Gooch bitten 03, Gooch eye gouged 05, McGuigan tripping Greg McCartan 04, Philip Jordan getting Marsden sent off 03, the antics on Saturday, the antics in Ballybofey, slagging a minor about his dead father, McMenamin spitting on Kerry players in a league match, the spitting etc in those junior club matches against the Kerry teams, Cavanaghs years of diving, the rugby tackle on McManus, Brian McGuigan getting blindsided by his own county man in a challenge match sustaining an eye injury so bad the surgeon compared it to people who had been beaten with baseball bats.
Thats just a sample count btw.

All the other top teams( and I would consider Monaghan to be the next worst offender, hence lack of sympathy for them, particularly the Hughes brothers!) have been guilty of various similar offences over the years but the total of the rest put together still wouldnt equal Tyrones list of misdemeanours.

What actually sickened me most this year was the sanctimonious whinging all overthe airwaves from Saint Sean and St Peter about the bad language theyve had to listen to from other teams and Peter using his newspaper column to have another whinge about Meath 96 the day Tyrone played Meath.

Apologies for repeat post but theres about 4 threads on same subject.

Jayop

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

No thanks. It would be a pointless exercise which would still leave us in disagreement.

It's not a difficult question and if you're big enough to talk about "all the dives" then you should be big enough to give even one example.

edgecutter

Jayop wrote: »

It's not a difficult question and if you're big enough to talk about "all the dives" then you should be big enough to give even one example.

Jayop you need to take off the red tinted glasses. He has always gone down easy, he even tried to get McManus sent off by falling to the ground.

Jayop

edgecutter wrote: »

Jayop you need to take off the red tinted glasses. He has always gone down easy, he even tried to get McManus sent off by falling to the ground.

So McManus elbows a man with his back turned and you blame the victim. :pac:

Awesome, at least I know where you stand on right and wrong.