Religion in junior infants

lazygal

Why did you put 'superstition' and 'support' in inverted commas? Are you rolling your eye at the views of Atheist Ireland or at it as a body?

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I agree but in 10 years I've never been aware of any bullying through isolation because of non-religious participation. Ever. Your experience probably says more about the children's parents because children are very accepting. It's when parents try to inflict and force their strong opinions on them that affects children and their behaviour.

What would you class as strong opinions? Are any religious views strong opinions?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Why did you put 'superstition' and 'support' in inverted commas? Are you rolling your eye at the views of Atheist Ireland or at it as a body?

It's not superstition to everybody & suggesting it is is extremely disrespectful to those who do have faith.

There are ways of disagreeing with points of view without belittling or dismissing views. You of all people would surely agree with that as it has been your argument that children in our primary schools are being dismissed every day!

Also I wish to add I did not use any eye-rolling smiley.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

What would you class as strong opinions? Are any religious views strong opinions?

You ask a lot of questions.
Have you ever considered becoming a detective?

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

It's not superstition to everybody & suggesting it is is extremely disrespectful to those who do have faith.

There are ways of disagreeing with points of view without belittling or dismissing views. You of all people would surely agree with that as it has been your argument that children in our primary schools are being dismissed every day!

Also I wish to add I did not use any eye-rolling smiley.

Yeah you used an eye rolling one. I know I ask a lot of questions. It's not often a primary school teacher openly posts about their participation in indoctrination so I find it interesting. I've certainly learned a few things that would inform me as to how I'd deal with schools when my children attend the primary system.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Yeah you used an eye rolling one. I know I ask a lot of questions. It's not often a primary school teacher openly posts about their participation in indoctrination so I find it interesting. I've certainly learned a few things that would inform me as to how I'd deal with schools when my children attend the primary system.

Oh yes, you are correct, I did. In relation to the money part.
Surely sharing a point of view doesn't require funding?
A facebook group is free surely?!

So what things have you learned? How would you deal with schools when your children enter the primary system? (My turn for the questions!)

UrFhasaidh

This thread took a lot of catching up on - I'll give it that much. Cards on the table for the sake of transparency: I'm religious and believe strongly that religion should be a part of education. The form that it takes in the classroom is clearly a hot topic. Doctrine and children don't mix well, and it has never been a good idea to impose dogmatic formulae on children. Religion is, for all of its very human failings, a significant component in our mythic imagination, our cultural identity, history, and faith (for them that suffer this particular malady). When I say this of 'religion' I am not merely talking of Christianity in it's Irish flavours, but religion in the broadest sense as part of our global heritage.

It is far more difficult to introduce young minds to academic philosophical ethics than it is to the natural ethics of religious traditions, and so I would think it unwise to dismiss and ignore the wealth of ethical themes we have in the various religious packages. Yes, the sacred texts are ancient and often say ancient and, quite frankly, insane things, but they are only part of presently living traditions which are now far less limited to ancient texts.

purplecow1977

Bit disappointing. I answer any question lazygal asks and then when I ask a few questions of my own, I get silence! Sigh!

UrFhasaidh

lazygal wrote: »

I've certainly learned a few things that would inform me as to how I'd deal with schools when my children attend the primary system.

What have you learned, and how will you "deal with schools?"

wirelessdude01

The use of the word 'deal' makes it sound ominous for the poor principal that has to deal with this

byhookorbycrook

meeeeh wrote: »

And I suspect I am not the only one because places are easily got in my local ET. Why multi denominational programmes anyway, so that unions are placated and no religion teachers lose their jobs?

In my opinion religion should be taught outside school. Going from one to multi denominational schools is complete lunacy.

Primary teachers actually won't lose jobs if religion is taken out of schools. Actually , primary teachers don't get paid to teach religion. It was traditionally taught for half an hour of lunch time to allow those not taking part to go home for lunch.

purplecow1977

purplecow1977 wrote: »

We are a democratic country.

If the majority opt for one thing, that is generally the decision that all must follow.

It will almost certainly surprise you to learn that this is in fact not how modern democratic societies work. I mean it shouldn't surprise you, but I suspect it will.

What you are describing is not democracy; it is majoritarianism.

Zaph

Folks, enough with the petitions please. If you want people to sign your petitions then start a blog, but we don't permit Boards to be used to harvest signatures.

One eyed Jack

zeffabelli wrote: »

One eyed Jack...

Do you believe in seperation of Church and state or do you support theocracies and and the schools right to practise discrimination in hiring practises, endorsed by the state?

Sorry zef, I missed this earlier (just going back over the thread to see was there anything I missed or should have picked up on).

I absolutely support complete separation of Church and State, and I believe that religion is a personal matter for those parents that want to bring up their children in a religion. I also believe in a parents prerogative to bring up their children absent of any religion. I personally don't support the idea of parents who do not support the ethos of a school putting their children in a particular school and then expecting that they should reserve the right to dictate to the school how their child should be taught.

I wouldn't agree that religious ethos schools management practices actually are endorsed by the State. I think it's more accurate to say that schools are partly funded by the State, and they are because they provide a service that the State is quite simply unable to provide. I wouldn't expect anyone to provide their services for free, and there's quite a bit of involvement in religious ethos schools from their various patronages.

With regard to discrimination in hiring practices, well I support the idea that any school should reserve the right to discriminate in hiring practices against those people who they believe would not be complimentary to the ethos of the school.

Orion

One eyed Jack wrote: »

With regard to discrimination in hiring practices, well I support the idea that any school should reserve the right to discriminate in hiring practices against those people who they believe would not be complimentary to the ethos of the school.

And this is the problem. Schools funded by the state (and they are totally funded for core activities such as teaching) should not have a specific ethos. For example, gay teachers working in catholic schools are afraid in case their principal or bishop find out as they may be fired just for being gay. They might act within the ethos of the school while dealing with students but be fired anyway for their own personal business. This also applies in catholic run hospitals btw. This needs to be addressed just as urgently as doing away with discriminatory enrolment practices.

ch750536

Cabaal wrote: »

First off I'll give full disclosure here, I'm not religious and personally I think religion is better left to "Sunday schools", priests/mass and the parents as its not upto the government to pay for teachers at the tax payers expense to push any one specific religion.

However, if you opt in to the religious aspect of the school then really its rather silly to then start picking and choosing what aspects of the religion class your child takes part in.

You're either involved in it or not, if you don't like the subject then its actually better for everyone if you don't put your child into the situation.

To give a comparison, its like opting your child into an optional Art Class but you don't want your kid thought about modern art because you or your child doesn't like it (to be fair its not to everyone's taste). Your child is either involved in the class or not.

The more people that opt out of religion means that opting out will be seen as more normal and acceptable and eventually there can be a push to take the religious side of stuff out of the school environment where it currently takes up 10% of school time at primary level (that is equal to the amount of time spent on Maths and English!)

In our school if you don't take the religious classes you sit in the cupboard.

zeffabelli

The problem is the schools are both public and private, which means they get state money but they can also discriminate in hiring practises.

This is not ok. It is not ok in this day and age to exclude an educator because they are a Jew or whatever they are. Blatant discriminatory practise illegal in the vast majority of the west.

Secondly, the practise of having opt out where kids have to sit in another room or be isolated, is simply ostracisation. How they can have the balls to do this while also including ostracisation in their anti bullying policies is the height of arrogance.

inocybe

zeffabelli wrote: »

The problem is the schools are both public and private, which means they get state money but they can also discriminate in hiring practises.

This is not ok. It is not ok in this day and age to exclude an educator because they are a Jew or whatever they are. Blatant discriminatory practise illegal in the vast majority of the west.

Secondly, the practise of having opt out where kids have to sit in another room or be isolated, is simply ostracisation. How they can have the balls to do this while also including ostracisation in their anti bullying policies is the height of arrogance.

Discrimination will be stopped eventually, there's no doubt about that. It's indefensible.
In primary school the isolation is more worrying. By the time you get to secondary you end up with a teen who won't tolerate it and tells you that his teachers are religious fanatics.

zeffabelli

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Sorry zef, I missed this earlier (just going back over the thread to see was there anything I missed or should have picked up on).

I absolutely support complete separation of Church and State, and I believe that religion is a personal matter for those parents that want to bring up their children in a religion. I also believe in a parents prerogative to bring up their children absent of any religion. I personally don't support the idea of parents who do not support the ethos of a school putting their children in a particular school and then expecting that they should reserve the right to dictate to the school how their child should be taught.

I wouldn't agree that religious ethos schools management practices actually are endorsed by the State. I think it's more accurate to say that schools are partly funded by the State, and they are because they provide a service that the State is quite simply unable to provide. I wouldn't expect anyone to provide their services for free, and there's quite a bit of involvement in religious ethos schools from their various patronages.

With regard to discrimination in hiring practices, well I support the idea that any school should reserve the right to discriminate in hiring practices against those people who they believe would not be complimentary to the ethos of the school.

See I feel differently. I feel I have every right to dictate how my child will be taught and I have no problem correcting teachers on their theological **** ups.

Is the department of education the state? I believe so.... Don't they set the curriculum?

I have a lot of theology/philosophy in my own education, likely a lot more so than current primary educators have.

It is not the place of the state to decide how they will instruct on the supernatural. I, as a parent will occupy and redirect all this nonsense, and will be happy to remind teachers of whatever superstitious voo do they are trying to pass on and call it education.

galljga1

ch750536 wrote: »

In our school if you don't take the religious classes you sit in the cupboard.

If you push through to the back of the cupboard, you reach a magical land ruled by an evil witch which is full of talking creatures led by a lion who dies to save everybody and break the power the witch has over all.

So, pretty much like religion.

HIB

galljga1 wrote: »

If you push through to the back of the cupboard, you reach a magical land ruled by an evil witch which is full of talking creatures led by a lion who dies to save everybody and break the power the witch has over all.

So, pretty much like religion.

There's been a few comments on here now, akin to this one. I seem to remember reading something a while back about 'self replicating zombies'.

I'm calling it for what it is - rude, disrespectful, intolerant, claptrap.

Fine, you don't believe in god, religion, whatever. That doesnt preclude having some manners.

galljga1

HIB wrote: »

There's been a few comments on here now, akin to this one. I seem to remember reading something a while back about 'self replicating zombies'.

I'm calling it for what it is - rude, disrespectful, intolerant, claptrap.

Fine, you don't believe in god, religion, whatever. That doesnt preclude having some manners.

I have no time for religion.

I'm calling it for what it is - rude, disrespectful, intolerant, claptrap.
Get a sense of humour dude. Just because your opinion on religion or any other topic differs from mine does not mean I or anybody cannot make fun of it.

NS77

frostyjacks wrote: »

How is it idiotic? Surely the idiotic thing is to send your child to a Catholic school and then moan about the Catholic ethos therein.

But, for the most part, they're State schools, with a Catholic ethos. This is the idiotic thing. You don't have Catholic ethos social welfare offices, so why have Catholic ethos State schools that prevent many children attending school alongside their friends and neighbours?

frostyjacks

I'd rather children are educated with a defined set of values as regards morals, love, marriage etc. than the 'anything goes, we're all the same' nonsense from secularists.

HIB

galljga1 wrote: »

I have no time for religion.

I'm calling it for what it is - rude, disrespectful, intolerant, claptrap.
Get a sense of humour dude. Just because your opinion on religion or any other topic differs from mine does not mean I or anybody cannot make fun of it.

OK dude.You're obviously way more modern and enlightened than I am.
But, just because you CAN mock something, doesn't make it polite to do so. My mother taught me that many moons ago. It held true way back then for the boy in my class who had a lisp , and it holds true today for people who have deeply held religious beliefs.

galljga1

frostyjacks wrote: »

I'd rather children are educated with a defined set of values as regards morals, love, marriage etc. than the 'anything goes, we're all the same' nonsense from secularists.

I agree with the above high lighted text. You do not need any religion for that to happen. With regard to marriage, would you extend that belief to our gay brethren?

galljga1

HIB wrote: »

OK dude.You're obviously way more modern and enlightened than I am.
But, just because you CAN mock something, doesn't make it polite to do so. My mother taught me that many moons ago. It held true way back then for the boy in my class who had a lisp , and it holds true today for people who have deeply held religious beliefs.

I find it so preposterous that adults believe in what are essentially man made religions, that I cannot help but call it out for what it is. Having deeply held religious beliefs does not make it true. Religion should have no place in education. I was called into school to explain why my daughter was explaining to kids in her class that there was no God, that we were decendant from apes. The principal was amazed that I had the cheek to have the point of view that my daughters beliefs were far more important than those derived from some ancient book. She was 8 at the time (my daughter, not the principal) and I had rarely mentioned religion to her at that stage, in either a positive or negative light.

Wanderer78

galljga1 wrote: »

I find it so preposterous that adults believe in what are essentially man made religions, that I cannot help but call it out for what it is. Having deeply held religious beliefs does not make it true. Religion should have no place in education. I was called into school to explain why my daughter was explaining to kids in her class that there was no God, that we were decendant from apes. The principal was amazed that I had the cheek to have the point of view that my daughters beliefs were far more important than those derived from some ancient book. She was 8 at the time (my daughter, not the principal) and I had rarely mentioned religion to her at that stage, in either a positive or negative light.

im taking a liking to your daughter. i think she will grow up to be a strong minded woman with great views and opinions about the world. shes a great tribute to her parents. best of luck to you and your family.

galljga1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im taking a liking to your daughter. i think she will grow up to be a strong minded woman with great views and opinions about the world. shes a great tribute to her parents. best of luck to you and your family.

Cheers, she already is. She has just hit puberty. I am not looking forward to the pending hormone deluge.

Wanderer78

galljga1 wrote: »

Cheers, she already is. She has just hit puberty. I am not looking forward to the pending hormone deluge.

hahaha ah she ll be fine, just a rocky time of her life