Religion in junior infants

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

Who's anti Irish? Do you mean those who wouldn't view Irish as a subject that all children should be compelled to learn? Or do you mean anti Irish people? Or Irishness?

Gaelscoils are just another way of segregating children based on their parents choices. I'd rather a child based system than one which just proposes setting up large numbers of small segregationist schools, meaning resources are diluted and education is based on adult centred desires.

Byhookorbycrook, is the school you teach in multi denominational? Or does it do faith formation?

Is that not simply an adult desire of yours then as a parent?

How is that any different from any other parents desire to give their children what they feel is the best education for their children?

lazygal

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Is that not simply an adult desire of yours then as a parent?

How is that any different from any other parents desire to give their children what they feel is the best education for their children?

I don't think any children would prioritize segregation of them from their peers because of religion or a desire to learn through Irish.

One eyed Jack

lazygal wrote: »

I don't think any children would prioritize segregation of them from their peers because of religion or a desire to learn through Irish.

There's an argument made by parents here that they don't want their children to feel excluded when it comes to either religion or Irish classes, so clearly they're worried that indeed other children do practice segregation based on these criteria (they practice segregation based on lots of other criteria too, gender being the most obvious one).

That's why their parents advocate for their children on their behalf, because parents are the legal guardians of their children, and their primary educators, so whatever about the parents making decisions for their children that you don't agree with, we're never going to have a situation in this country, in any country, where children are able to advocate for themselves in terms of their own education.

zeffabelli

I suggest we get vouchers for private school.

byhookorbycrook

I work in a religious ethos school but religion or the lack of is not an entry barrier- it is not part of our policy. We're not a small school by the way, we have 480 children.

My remarks re Irish were not directed at you , LG, it just sometimes appears to me online that some people don't realise that ET is not the only form of multi-denom school in Ireland.

In the ideal world, would all primary schools be run in the same way, under the same governing body? (Again not asking you specifically, just throwing it out there.)

meeeeh

Gerry T wrote: »

The solution is to change the current system, move catholic controlled schools over to ET schools. This is happening. It is a govt programme, the church backs this move. SO with time this will be what we have. You may not like it but that's what's happening.

I don't like religion in schools but I still prefer to send my kids to one denominational school than to some multi mumbo jumbo. And I suspect I am not the only one because places are easily got in my local ET. Why multi denominational programmes anyway, so that unions are placated and no religion teachers lose their jobs?

In my opinion religion should be taught outside school. Going from one to multi denominational schools is complete lunacy.

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I work in a religious ethos school but religion or the lack of is not an entry barrier- it is not part of our policy. We're not a small school by the way, we have 480 children.

My remarks re Irish were not directed at you , LG, it just sometimes appears to me online that some people don't realise that ET is not the only form of multi-denom school in Ireland.

In the ideal world, would all primary schools be run in the same way, under the same governing body? (Again not asking you specifically, just throwing it out there.)

What do those not involved in indoctrination do during faith formation?

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't like religion in schools but I still prefer to send my kids to one denominational school than to some multi mumbo jumbo. And I suspect I am not the only one because places are easily got in my local ET. Why multi denominational programmes anyway, so that unions are placated and no religion teachers lose their jobs?

In my opinion religion should be taught outside school. Going from one to multi denominational schools is complete lunacy.

Religious instruction and indoctrination for faith formation isn't done in multi denominational schools. Children learn about all faiths and atheism, humanism etc in a way that doesn't indoctrinate. The teachers in them aren't religion teachers, they're teachers.

One eyed Jack

zeffabelli wrote: »

I suggest we get vouchers for private school.

Charter schools anyone?

A charter school is a school that receives public funding but operates independently of the established public school system in which it is located. Charter schools are an example of alternative education.

meeeeh

lazygal wrote: »

Religious instruction and indoctrination for faith formation isn't done in multi denominational schools. Children learn about all faiths and atheism, humanism etc in a way that doesn't indoctrinate. The teachers in them aren't religion teachers, they're teachers.

I would prefer kids to learn maths and another language, have more p.e. etc.

I am not worried about indoctrination, considering how many of us had some form of religious education and don't consider ourselves religious. I had the benefit of growing up in a country where not being religious was by far preferred option for the political powers. When that collapsed I know only one girl who was from atheist family and became religious. I know plenty who went in the opposite direction. Becoming atheist or nonreligious in today's society really isn't some achievement.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

What do those not involved in indoctrination do during faith formation?

What do you think they should be allowed to do?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Religious instruction and indoctrination for faith formation isn't done in multi denominational schools. Children learn about all faiths and atheism, humanism etc in a way that doesn't indoctrinate. The teachers in them aren't religion teachers, they're teachers.

I'm not a religion teacher either.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I'm not a religion teacher either.

Do you teach faith formation in a religious primary school? Or are you continuing to see no difference between a prayer and a poem? Would you be able to opt out of indoctrination lessons?

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

What do you think they should be allowed to do?

Not have to be in a position where they are marked out as 'other". Do you think five to twelve year olds should be marked out as different and treated as separate but equal in state funded schools?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Not have to be in a position where they are marked out as 'other". Do you think five to twelve year olds should be marked out as different and treated as separate but equal in state funded schools?

Many don't actually have an issue with opting out.
I'm actually surprised you think there is something wrong with being different when you're advocating 'difference' and 'creativity' in previous posts! Seems a bit of a juxtaposition!

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Do you teach faith formation in a religious primary school? Or are you continuing to see no difference between a prayer and a poem? Would you be able to opt out of indoctrination lessons?

Were you not paying attention in earlier posts? I made enough of them!

frostyjacks

lazygal wrote: »

How do you define "a bit out of the way"?

Well there's over 70 of those schools in the 26 counties, so nobody would be far from one.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Many don't actually have an issue with opting out.
I'm actually surprised you think there is something wrong with being different when you're advocating 'difference' and 'creativity' in previous posts! Seems a bit of a juxtaposition!

How do you deal with the children you teach who opt out during indoctrination? Are you happy with doing indoctrination on behalf of the Catholic church?

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

Well there's over 70 of those schools in the 26 counties, so nobody would be far from one.

How far is "a bit out of the way"?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

How do you deal with the children you teach who opt out during indoctrination?

I already answered that.

lazygal wrote: »

Are you happy with doing indoctrination on behalf of the Catholic church?

I already answered that.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I already answered that.



I already answered that.

Do you still think saying a prayer is no different from saying a poem?

purplecow1977

This can be discussed until the cow's come home, but I'd like to see some hard evidence that parents want religion removed from schools. A petition might be good. It would also show people being proactive instead of mindless complaining on an internet forum.

If someone would like to start one, I've no problem signing it & would love to see the results in about 2/3 weeks.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Do you still think saying a prayer is no different from saying a poem?

So you WERE paying attention!

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

This can be discussed until the cow's come home, but I'd like to see some hard evidence that parents want religion removed from schools. A petition might be good. It would also show people being proactive instead of mindless complaining on an internet forum.

If someone would like to start one, I've no problem signing it & would love to see the results in about 2/3 weeks.

So if, say, a majority of parents didn't want religion removed from schools those who aren't religious would just have to continue to put up with religious discrimination and indoctrination in a state funded system? Why would only parents get a say? Would you only survey parents with children in the school system or parents of all children or other stakeholders?

Do you think children reciting prayers and poems is the same?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

So if, say, a majority of parents didn't want religion removed from schools those who aren't religious would just have to continue to put up with religious discrimination and indoctrination in a state funded system? Why would only parents get a say? Would you only survey parents with children in the school system or parents of all children or other stakeholders?

In any survey, it is impossible to survey all those involved. Hence why they take a focus group.

We are a democratic country.

If the majority opt for one thing, that is generally the decision that all must follow.

If I take a vote within my class for something, the majority wins. Those in the minority must go with the majority, whether they like the choice or not.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

In any survey, it is impossible to survey all those involved. Hence why they take a focus group.

We are a democratic country.

If the majority opt for one thing, that is generally the decision that all must follow.

If I take a vote within my class for something, the majority wins. Those in the minority must go with the majority, whether they like the choice or not.

That's a strange attitude towards minorities. Is it democratic for the state funded school system to allow discrimination on religious grounds? Do you think majority rights should allow discrimination to take place? If a majority didn't want any children with special educational needs in their schools, would that be ok? Or traveller children?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

That's a strange attitude towards minorities.

Really??? I don't agree. If I'm an avid Sinn Féin supporter and Fine Gael win the election, I can't really complain can I? The majority won!

How else do you think votes and majority/minorities operate??

lazygal wrote: »

Is it democratic for the state funded school system to allow discrimination on religious grounds? Do you think majority rights should allow discrimination to take place? If a majority didn't want any children with special educational needs in their schools, would that be ok? Or traveller children?

No, it wouldn't be okay. Again, I can only speak from my own perspective where we have children from all faiths and none so for me, I can't really understand your particular issue. Perhaps other schools are not as accommodating. Then there is a definite issue.

But again, as I've repeatedly stated, what are parents actually doing about this? You're in the minority so you're going to have to make a LOT of noise. I haven't come across any petition, demonstrations, Facebook posts etc about this. Can you share any?

Dob74

It's not that easy to take a kid out of a lesson. I still can remember a kid in my class sitting by himself as the rest of us do religion. It was bullying thru isolation. I do go to mass now and again, but i think religion has no place in a publicly funded classroom. Teach kids in Sunday school. That way people can opt out easily if they have no interest.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

There are a number of groups involved. Humanist Association, Atheist Ireland, Teach Don't Preach and others. Maybe you could discuss them with your classes in terms of minority rights. Paddy Monohan is a man who's spoken regularly about a petition to remove the rights of schools to discriminate on religious grounds in admission policies. Maybe you could sign it.
<snip>

I am happy to sign that.

But that's about admissions into schools.

Wasn't your issue with the teaching of religion in schools full stop?

Any petition for that?

This is from November 2013. http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2013/11/atheist-ireland-submission-to-equality-authority-on-employment-equality-act/Any follow up? I don't even recall this making news. Why? People weren't bothered?

Not too different to your interpretation of the Catholic Church!
http://atheist.ie/information/about/

Insults all religions by referring to them as 'superstition'
Looks for money to 'support' their work:rolleyes:

Oh and look, majority votes at play!
"This constitution may be amended by a vote of two thirds of the members present and voting at an AGM."

Definitely an issue for the relevant government departments, not teachers
"The Minister for Education and the Department of Justice are blaming each other for the continued discrimination against atheists in State-funded schools.

Atheist Ireland has recently met the Department of Justice about this, and will soon be meeting the Department of Education, following up on our meeting with the Taoiseach Enda Kenny and the Minister for Education.

The Minister for Education, Jan O’Sullivan, said today that she didn’t have the legal power to say to schools that “if you are not baptised or not part of that particular religion that they don’t have to take you in. It is legislation that comes from the Department of Justice and Equality.”

But at two separate meetings in July with Atheist Ireland, Deaglan O Briain, of the Equality Section of the Department of Justice, forcefully told us that the Department of Education, and not Justice, is responsible for how the education system is run.

The Department of Justice also said that the Government is constitutionally obliged to allow religious schools to give priority to their coreligionists, regardless of whether or not the State funds those schools, and that they cannot constitutionally go any further in removing the exemptions that State-funded schools with a religious ethos have from our equality laws.

The Department of Justice says that this position is based on legal advice that they have, but that they will not publish, in order to protect and buttress freedom of religion.

However, the 1995 Constitutional Review Group said Article 44.2.4, which sanctions state funding of denominational schools, was also meant to protect the rights of minorities. However, over the years, those rights have been undermined.

The Department of Justice also said that Ireland had negotiated an exemption from the European Equality Directive specifically in order to enable schools to continue this practice.

When Atheist Ireland said that the Constitution does not oblige the State to run an education system based on religious discrimination, the Department of Justice insisted that that is entirely a matter for the Department of Education, and that the Department of Justice can only pass laws that reflect what exists in the education system and the Constitution.

The Minister for Education also said today that “There are no proposals to change it but I think it is an issue that needs to be debated and discussed in the next government, in view of how Ireland has changed.”

But why should it have to wait until the next government to debate and discuss it? There are currently two Bills going through the Oireachtas that relate directly to this discrimination. Surely this is the exact time to resolve these issues?

The Admissions to Schools Bill claims to bring equality in access to schools, but it retains the right of schools to discriminate on the ground of religion, using the euphemism “lawful oversubscription criteria” for giving priority to children with baptism certificates.

And the Section 37 Amendment Bill will stop schools from discriminating against teachers who are LGBT, but it retains the right of schools to discriminate against teachers who are atheist or the wrong religion.

Atheist Ireland is also seeking a commitment from all political parties to bring about religious equality in State-funded schools. If they agree with the Department of Justice that this requires Constitutional change, then we will seek another equality referendum."

purplecow1977

Dob74 wrote: »

It's that easy to take a kid out of a lesson. I still can remember a kid in my class sitting by himself as the rest of us do religion. It was bullying thru isolation. I do go to mass now and again, but i think religion has no place in a publicly funded classroom. Teach kids in Sunday school. That way people can opt out easily if they have no interest.

I agree but in 10 years I've never been aware of any bullying through isolation because of non-religious participation. Ever. Your experience probably says more about the children's parents because children are very accepting. It's when parents try to inflict and force their strong opinions on them that affects children and their behaviour.