Junior Rugby [Social Rugby] Season 2015/2016

The Lost Sheep

Metro Cup (Metro J1)
1st round
31/1/16 Suttonians v St Marys
2nd round
21/2/16
Suttonians/St Marys v DLSP, Monkstown v Old Belvedere, Terenure v Trinity, UCD v Wanderers, Barnhall v Lansdowne, Clontarf v Old Wesley, Seapoint v Blackrock, Malahide v Greystones

Albert O'Connell Cup (Metro J2)
1st round
30/1/16
Coolmine v Old Belvedere, Railway Union v Terenure, Stillorgan v St Marys College
2nd round
20/2/16
Railway Union/Terenure v Coolmine/Old Belvedere, Clontarf v Skerries, Bective Rangers v Old Wesley, Lansdowne v Stillorglin/St Marys

Havent seen full draws for each yet
Moran Cup, Winters Cup, O Connor Cup

GavMan

gaius c wrote: »

If anybody wants the j4/5 cup draws, drop me a pm with email.
Haven't got the time to post them up here.

Do you know when the Winters is being played?

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Retention is an issue but just having an u23 league isn't anything like a solution
Do Greystones still have huge youths section? What comps do they play?
They've 1 side in school/youths league at 14s/15s/17s and none in youths leagues.
But then you are just putting things off with a u23 league. You need to link the kids from early age in some form or another to the senior parts of a club.

Cup draws have been made. First games for most sides is tomorrow fortnight

There might be a break after mini's actually. Not sure what the story there is but I know there are issues finding pitch space for the minis to play, there are so many teams. Maybe there is a big fall off when they go on to senior school as several schools locally have teams.


No you're not putting it off, if there is a 75/25 split then over the course of the three years, they will integrate slowly with the social side. Rather than just stop playing when they finish 20's.

How exactly are you going to link kids to the senior side?

gaius c

Email from Leinster branch yesterday

Metropolitan & Under 20 Cups – Regulation 5.12

With the commencement of the Cups this coming weekend your attention is drawn to regulation 5.12 which is reprinted below and which stipulates that players must have played in at least four games at that level or below this season in order to qualify to play in the Cup.

5.12 For a player to be eligible to play in any Metropolitan Cup (with the exception of the Leinster Senior League Cup,) or the play-offs of any Metro League Competition or under 20’s Competitions, they shall have played in at least 4 matches at that level or below in the current season.


Where there are players that have not played the required number of games through injury or illness or some other extraordinary factor applications can be made to have them regraded to be made eligible. In such instances each case shall be judged on its own merits.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

There might be a break after mini's actually. Not sure what the story there is but I know there are issues finding pitch space for the minis to play, there are so many teams. Maybe there is a big fall off when they go on to senior school as several schools locally have teams.

No you're not putting it off, if there is a 75/25 split then over the course of the three years, they will integrate slowly with the social side. Rather than just stop playing when they finish 20's.

How exactly are you going to link kids to the senior side?

18-23 is the vital stage you need to get these playing adult rugby asap. By adding an extra grade of age grade puts things back. It isn't needed. By all means have it as an end of season event like they have with the GAA where u21 is end of year club competition and you have adult grades through the season and have u23 to finish year off but not as a whole season long event. There wouldn't be a split like you are suggesting of players into adult open grades.
If there are so many teams in greystones etc regardless of numbers going to rugby playing schools then clubs are doing a **** job in providing rugby for kids. In the overall scheme of things most areas are not surrounded by schools that play a lot of rugby/rugby is a weekly coached sport and there is weekly games

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

1. 18-23 is the vital stage you need to get these playing adult rugby asap. By adding an extra grade of age grade puts things back. It isn't needed. By all means have it as an end of season event like they have with the GAA where u21 is end of year club competition and you have adult grades through the season and have u23 to finish year off but not as a whole season long event. There wouldn't be a split like you are suggesting of players into adult open grades.
2. If there are so many teams in greystones etc regardless of numbers going to rugby playing schools then clubs are doing a **** job in providing rugby for kids. In the overall scheme of things most areas are not surrounded by schools that play a lot of rugby/rugby is a weekly coached sport and there is weekly games

1. So the answer is what? Kidnap them and force them to play? Because what's been happening is clearly not working. Most clubs are retaining about 20% max of their 20's teams, go ask the players why. It isn't needed, because things are working so well at the moment? like f**k they are.

2. There are many players under 12 for the minis because there are 0 national schools playing rugby. Once the school option comes available there is a massive drop off. It will always be hard for the clubs to compete there. How would you suggest they could?

gaius c

Looks like reg 5.12 is causing teams a lot of grief, especially in the J5 cup where teams have only played 6/7 games.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

1. So the answer is what? Kidnap them and force them to play? Because what's been happening is clearly not working. Most clubs are retaining about 20% max of their 20's teams, go ask the players why. It isn't needed, because things are working so well at the moment? like f**k they are.

2. There are many players under 12 for the minis because there are 0 national schools playing rugby. Once the school option comes available there is a massive drop off. It will always be hard for the clubs to compete there. How would you suggest they could?

Yeah...:rolleyes:
Your solution to stopping the drop out rate from age grade rugby to open grade rugby is to add an extra age grade. Great idea....
If there is so many kids playing minis that still doesn't mean all are going to rugby schools. There is several secondary schools in Bray that don't play rugby. Not all who play mini rugby go to the rugby schools. Where are the drives to get those who don't go to rugby schools playing or stay playing in club

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yeah...:rolleyes:
Your solution to stopping the drop out rate from age grade rugby to open grade rugby is to add an extra age grade. Great idea....
If there is so many kids playing minis that still doesn't mean all are going to rugby schools. There is several secondary schools in Bray that don't play rugby. Not all who play mini rugby go to the rugby schools. Where are the drives to get those who don't go to rugby schools playing or stay playing in club

Well clearly you didn't read my original post properly, I suggest you go back and read it again.

gaius c

gaius c wrote: »

Looks like reg 5.12 is causing teams a lot of grief, especially in the J5 cup where teams have only played 6/7 games.

And some teams appear to have ignored it completely, which to be fair is what happened in previous years too.

Teferi

gaius c wrote: »

And some teams appear to have ignored it completely, which to be fair is what happened in previous years too.

What's your opinion on that?

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

Well clearly you didn't read my original post properly, I suggest you go back and read it again.

stephen_n wrote: »

1. So the answer is what? Kidnap them and force them to play? Because what's been happening is clearly not working. Most clubs are retaining about 20% max of their 20's teams, go ask the players why. It isn't needed, because things are working so well at the moment? like f**k they are.

2. There are many players under 12 for the minis because there are 0 national schools playing rugby. Once the school option comes available there is a massive drop off. It will always be hard for the clubs to compete there. How would you suggest they could?

And not all attend those schools. Greystones for example. Very large population in that area. Yes there is Pres and Gerards but there is 3/4 other schools with no rugby played. Why not look at those? How else do you get clubs to compete. Put more resources in to attract kids to the sport, development officers etc in schools. Not all will attend the rugby playing schools. Especially where one is fee paying as cost is an issue

Cups started yesterday.....

cloneslad

gaius c wrote: »

And some teams appear to have ignored it completely, which to be fair is what happened in previous years too.

What teams do you think did this?

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

And not all attend those schools. Greystones for example. Very large population in that area. Yes there is Pres and Gerards but there is 3/4 other schools with no rugby played. Why not look at those? How else do you get clubs to compete. Put more resources in to attract kids to the sport, development officers etc in schools. Not all will attend the rugby playing schools. Especially where one is fee paying as cost is an issue

Cups started yesterday.....

Davids played rugby as did Brendans in bray not sure if they still do and Temple Carrig the new 1000 pupil senior school also plays rugby. What do you think happens after minis? Do you think the clubs don't do anything to retain those kids? There are multiple issues that come into play, between other sports competing, parents not wanting the risks of rugby, peer groups changing etc.. that contribute to the fall off in numbers. None of which really impact at junior level. You keep beating this drum about breaking the links to schools but have no concrete suggestions as to how this can be achieved. Also there is no real argument that it would affect long term retention at club level. Unless someone does a study of all players playing at junior level and their route to the club, it's all just a notional idea based on some issue you seem to have with schools rugby.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

Davids played rugby as did Brendans in bray not sure if they still do and Temple Carrig the new 1000 pupil senior school also plays rugby. What do you think happens after minis? Do you think the clubs don't do anything to retain those kids? There are multiple issues that come into play, between other sports competing, parents not wanting the risks of rugby, peer groups changing etc.. that contribute to the fall off in numbers. None of which really impact at junior level. You keep beating this drum about breaking the links to schools but have no concrete suggestions as to how this can be achieved. Also there is no real argument that it would affect long term retention at club level. Unless someone does a study of all players playing at junior level and their route to the club, it's all just a notional idea based on some issue you seem to have with schools rugby.

Do those schools play anywhere near the stated minimum number of games stated by the IRFU for age grade players? I highly doubt it. Of course there is multiple issues at play. I coach 2 club underage teams, in 2 different provinces, and have played age grade within the last decade. Enough isn't done by clubs in a lot of areas. If living in plenty of areas in and around Dublin and not attending a school that plays rugby on a very regular basis you as good as cant play the sport bar the odd exception. The IRFU aren't doing enough neither or the clubs. If you have more playing in a club and through the age groups its very clear that you will keep more playing to adult level than by not having teams at all.
You are assuming something that isn't anywhere near the truth about me

gaius c

cloneslad wrote: »

What teams do you think did this?

It's not fair to say.
A few teams were on the ball with regrades but some just left it too late. O'Connor cup is where it's arising because a lot of teams have only played 7 games and at the most social level of rugby, you'd get quite a few lads stuck on 3 games.

I think the idea of 5.12 is nice but it's a little redundant now that the cups are being spread out a bit.

ArmchairQB

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Do those schools play anywhere near the stated minimum number of games stated by the IRFU for age grade players? I highly doubt it. Of course there is multiple issues at play. I coach 2 club underage teams, in 2 different provinces, and have played age grade within the last decade. Enough isn't done by clubs in a lot of areas. If living in plenty of areas in and around Dublin and not attending a school that plays rugby on a very regular basis you as good as cant play the sport bar the odd exception. The IRFU aren't doing enough neither or the clubs. If you have more playing in a club and through the age groups its very clear that you will keep more playing to adult level than by not having teams at all.
You are assuming something that isn't anywhere near the truth about me

Hard to blame the clubs they are getting less and less support from Branches and IRFU Financially and In Dublin especially they do not sanction as many YDOs/RDOs as they should. My club applied but said due to so many clubs in Dublin they couldn't be seen to favour a club by giving them financial assistance to benefit them thru ydo scheme. Clubs don't have players sitting around doing nothing during the day to coach school kids. The union and Branch need to resource it better

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Do those schools play anywhere near the stated minimum number of games stated by the IRFU for age grade players? I highly doubt it. Of course there is multiple issues at play. I coach 2 club underage teams, in 2 different provinces, and have played age grade within the last decade. Enough isn't done by clubs in a lot of areas. If living in plenty of areas in and around Dublin and not attending a school that plays rugby on a very regular basis you as good as cant play the sport bar the odd exception. The IRFU aren't doing enough neither or the clubs. If you have more playing in a club and through the age groups its very clear that you will keep more playing to adult level than by not having teams at all.
You are assuming something that isn't anywhere near the truth about me

Ok so what could the clubs do that they aren't doing. You keep saying it but never suggest the alternatives or accept the very real fact that school kids will play sport in school ahead of any club.

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

Ok so what could the clubs do that they aren't doing. You keep saying it but never suggest the alternatives or accept the very real fact that school kids will play sport in school ahead of any club.

Isnt is obvious? You work with schools. You have club school competitions and have branch development officers and promotional staff work to get schools only players playing in the clubs through the season. How many games that schools sides play are uncompetitive in the sense they form no part of any competition at all? You work that clubs games and clubs play more games and you link kids between schools as well as those who don't attend a rugby playing school that plays 10-15 games minimum a season and you simply find more games which is easy considering number of clubs nearby who would be looking for games.

devolution

Anyone know why suttonians were not docked points for higher teams conceding & lower reams playing in the division 10 the last 2 weeks in a row .
I saw that at Mary's were docked points earlier in the season but I'm sure If Sutton were docked points then that would. Be of interest to salmo !
Seems odd that the branch have not acted on this
With important league games going ahead this weekend !

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Isnt is obvious? You work with schools. You have club school competitions and have branch development officers and promotional staff work to get schools only players playing in the clubs through the season. How many games that schools sides play are uncompetitive in the sense they form no part of any competition at all? You work that clubs games and clubs play more games and you link kids between schools as well as those who don't attend a rugby playing school that plays 10-15 games minimum a season and you simply find more games which is easy considering number of clubs nearby who would be looking for games.

That makes no sense at all, why would the schools have any interest in clubs. The schools will either play rugby themselves and compete in the normal way or not be involved. When would these competitions take place? during school time?

The Lost Sheep

stephen_n wrote: »

That makes no sense at all, why would the schools have any interest in clubs. The schools will either play rugby themselves and compete in the normal way or not be involved. When would these competitions take place? during school time?

Look at Munster and the end of season at age grade. For the older age groups there is in Limerick/Clare "North Munster" region there is 2 cup competitions for the oldest age groups - an open competition and closed. There has to be integrated pathway for clubs and schools to co exist for the betterment of the game overall. To help with feeding players into the club game. Club game is for life. If there isn't its easier for players to fall out of playing the sport.

You have club school competitions at the end of the year. In evening time/weekends.
Use the schools and get the kids interested in playing into the clubs where there is existing infrastructure - players, coaches, etc
http://community.connachtrugby.ie/obrien-stirring-interest-across-the-north-west/

gaius c

devolution wrote: »

Anyone know why suttonians were not docked points for higher teams conceding & lower reams playing in the division 10 the last 2 weeks in a row .
I saw that at Mary's were docked points earlier in the season but I'm sure If Sutton were docked points then that would. Be of interest to salmo !
Seems odd that the branch have not acted on this
With important league games going ahead this weekend !

Sometimes they update the table immediately, sometimes not. Get your club rep with the branch to ask why and it'll probably be done fairly sharpish.

The actual match reporting is done very quickly because it's automatic and based on the text from the ref but stuff like deductions has to be done manually.

Legalfarmer89

astonaidan wrote: »

Were the same out west, we had the best team in Connacht for two years while we were winning we had loads of lads turning up, things got a little hard this year and 15 lads showed up for a first team game, total joke.
What Ive said for years, is lads are getting picked when they arent showing up for training and going on the lash the night before.
Whats funny is its never the stars of our team doing this, its the guys who are middle but know they wont get dropped.

Jesus I can relate to this.............
Junior club rugby is really a weird cycle and the standards and commitment of players of some clubs varies. Its up the clubs to try and attract players to the game particularly lads in there late teens early twenties as they will provide the the club with the resources for the club to keep teams out but its hard with many clubs as there is no school (playing rugby) attached to the club. Really in Rugby you would want to foster the G.A.A ethos of club come first(even though thats not the actual reality as county teams in GA.A or provincial teams will always come first) for rugby clubs. The Club should be the heart of Irish rugby but its hard to know how to define it, particularly Junior rugby......

The Lost Sheep

Legalfarmer89 wrote: »

Jesus I can relate to this.............
Junior club rugby is really a weird cycle and the standards and commitment of players of some clubs varies. Its up the clubs to try and attract players to the game particularly lads in there late teens early twenties as they will provide the the club with the resources for the club to keep teams out but its hard with many clubs as there is no school (playing rugby) attached to the club. Really in Rugby you would want to foster the G.A.A ethos of club come first(even though thats not the actual reality as county teams in GA.A or provincial teams will always come first) for rugby clubs. The Club should be the heart of Irish rugby but its hard to know how to define it, particularly Junior rugby......

Just because there isn't a rugby playing school attached to a cluyb doesn't mean much. Only in the cities and certain towns is there schools that play a lot of rugby. In most areas it is clubs that provide virtually all the rugby.

Legalfarmer89

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Just because there isn't a rugby playing school attached to a cluyb doesn't mean much. Only in the cities and certain towns is there schools that play a lot of rugby. In most areas it is clubs that provide virtually all the rugby.

I acknowledge your point that it is the Clubs that provided Rugby in most areas in Ireland, particularly in the Non Urban areas. It would help if there were more schools playing rugby but alot of schools particularly rural areas concentrate on G.A.A although there are some schools making a great effort. Some clubs struggle for numbers at underage and seconds teams which puts pressure on the first team in a lot of cases when there are injuries lack of players coming through.
I just think that club rugby in Ireland could do with a bit of revitalization particularly the junior clubs, whether it is changing the format of how the seasons are run or the dual status system, overall its hard to really know.

JPNelsforearm

I remember playing for my club(under some other lads name) as once we were knocked out of the cup that was it and we only got a few games a year anyway at school. I remember one of the lads on the team had to get special permission from the Leinster branch and his school(it was a big ordeal iirc) as he was only playing seconds/thirds and wanted a game every weekend and most of his friends played for the club. Is that system still in place that schools players cant play club?

stephen_n

I see an ehm very strong Barnhall side won the division 11 play off.

.ak

stephen_n wrote: »

I see an ehm very strong Barnhall side won the division 11 play off.

I feel for the Norman lads. In my opinion they've been the best in that division after a pretty good turn around from where they were, and that's impressive for a one team club.

I don't feel great about having to trek down to Kilkenny again next year tho.

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

I feel for the Norman lads. In my opinion they've been the best in that division after a pretty good turn around from where they were, and that's impressive for a one team club.

I don't feel great about having to trek down to Kilkenny again next year tho.

Don't know much about the division and how it played out. Saw a picture of the Barnhall team that beat Normans in the playoff and more than half of it were the players that beat Greystones in the division 7 play off last year. that's not development as far as I can see. If I was from Normans that would leave a very bad taste in my mouth.