Junior Rugby [Social Rugby] Season 2015/2016

.ak · 09-11-2015 9:20pm

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Nothing scheduled and a walkover this weekend. Actually it's been 3 weeks I think, I didn't play the last one.

Same for us. We only had our first game in 3 weeks on Saturday. We almost put 100 on emerald warriors infront of Joe Schmidt (officially opening the new pitch), so not a bad way to get back into things and stretch the legs a bit.

Needless to say I had to tell him I won't be available for the extended Irish squad due to my commitments to the division 11 Clontarf team...

shoutman · 10-11-2015 6:21pm

Anybody know what the story is with the cups this year? At the start of the year I had it in my head that the cup matches were going to start pre-christmas as a way to try and avoid post-Christmas banger teams entering.
Anybody have an update on that?

gaius c · 10-11-2015 8:07pm

shoutman wrote: »

Anybody know what the story is with the cups this year? At the start of the year I had it in my head that the cup matches were going to start pre-christmas as a way to try and avoid post-Christmas banger teams entering.
Anybody have an update on that?

Been talked about for years but there's no room in the schedule to do it really. Folks like their xmas off. To make it work, the leagues would have to finish later.

shoutman · 11-11-2015 10:06am

Ah right, In division ten it certainly seems like there is room for it... at least Clontarf have had two three week gaps so far this season by the time we play our next match on the 28th.

stephen_n · 11-01-2016 3:44pm

Played my first game of the season on Saturday, been out injured. Ended up playing for the opposition though:pac: Things seem to be as bad as ever with junor rugby. We were scheduled to play Monkstown in the J4 league, they couldn't field a full team but if they conceded without starting they would be out of the league. In the end one of their coaches started the game, purely to make up numbers. They conceded after the first try was scored and we made up the numbers to play a friendly. Monkstown seem to be totally screwed for players. Having said that, I know we have struggled too at all levels this season. It's mad to think that in my first few years playing junior rugby, Greystones had 9 junior teams at cup time and now struggle to field three in the leagues. Monkstown had probably 5 in those days and now struggle to have one team. The only teams I can see who are growing are Mary's and Clontarf. I think the branch might want to look at promoting the game as a played sport after underage level.

Thud · 11-01-2016 3:47pm

shoutman wrote: »

Anybody know what the story is with the cups this year? At the start of the year I had it in my head that the cup matches were going to start pre-christmas as a way to try and avoid post-Christmas banger teams entering.
Anybody have an update on that?

The cups are starting earlier during the league this year, wonder if it will have the desired effect.

The Lost Sheep · 11-01-2016 3:48pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Played my first game of the season on Saturday, been out injured. Ended up playing for the opposition though:pac: Things seem to be as bad as ever with junor rugby. We were scheduled to play Monkstown in the J4 league, they couldn't field a full team but if they conceded without starting they would be out of the league. In the end one of their coaches started the game, purely to make up numbers. They conceded after the first try was scored and we made up the numbers to play a friendly. Monkstown seem to be totally screwed for players. Having said that, I know we have struggled too at all levels this season. It's mad to think that in my first few years playing junior rugby, Greystones had 9 junior teams at cup time and now struggle to field three in the leagues. Monkstown had probably 5 in those days and now struggle to have one team. The only teams I can see who are growing are Mary's and Clontarf.

How can junior rugby improve? At least Monkstown played and are trying to keep those who want to play playing.

I think the branch might want to look at promoting the game as a played sport after underage level.

How do you do that? I think the schools and lack of interaction for most kids in some areas with a club for their teenage years affects this. What do you want done to help promote rugby at social level/semi competitive level for people in their late teens/early 20s?

stephen_n · 11-01-2016 3:55pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How can junior rugby improve? At least Monkstown played and are trying to keep those who want to play playing.
How do you do that? I think the schools and lack of interaction for most kids in some areas with a club for their teenage years affects this. What do you want done to help promote rugby at social level/semi competitive level for people in their late teens/early 20s?

I'm not criticising Monkstown, but they are in serious trouble. Other clubs probably wouldn't have allowed the game go ahead, the next club might not. It's coming into the hardest part of the season for any club to fill fixtures. I really don't want to see any club getting booted out, it's not good for rugby.

You can see the interest on here for people taking up rugby, the branch could help the clubs promote this in their areas, flyers or promotional events such as open days, using Leinster players to promote it, same as they do for underage rugby. In the end the clubs need to do it themselves but I don't/haven't seen much help from the branch in this.

ArmchairQB · 11-01-2016 4:13pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How can junior rugby improve? At least Monkstown played and are trying to keep those who want to play playing.
How do you do that? I think the schools and lack of interaction for most kids in some areas with a club for their teenage years affects this. What do you want done to help promote rugby at social level/semi competitive level for people in their late teens/early 20s?

Sunday rugby is a big problem we have J1s, J2s & 20s playing on Sundays & the odd time J3's as well. Can't field a 2nd 20s as no one wants 12 or 1 ko times on a Sunday. The fun needs to be put back in the game and administrators need to be a bit more creative doubling up fixtures on a Saturday between teams having home and away days possibly 3 junior teams playing that day great buzz and great bar night in club after. Not much imagination in scheduling and same cut and paste job each year. Senior game followed by a junior game if both clubs have teams in that division would be a big help. Excuse is usually referee availability or lack of referee's, branches need to work harder to attract referee's. Great ideas get put forward and agreed at Junior meeting with provinces but very few actually get implemented. A vibrant Junior section in any club leads to a healthy club better social atmosphere and more members. Needs addressing as numbers are falling almost everywhere in the metro area

The Lost Sheep · 11-01-2016 4:25pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I'm not criticising Monkstown, but they are in serious trouble. Other clubs probably wouldn't have allowed the game go ahead, the next club might not. It's coming into the hardest part of the season for any club to fill fixtures. I really don't want to see any club getting booted out, it's not good for rugby.

You can see the interest on here for people taking up rugby, the branch could help the clubs promote this in their areas, flyers or promotional events such as open days, using Leinster players to promote it, same as they do for underage rugby. In the end the clubs need to do it themselves but I don't/haven't seen much help from the branch in this.

I know you're not but at least Monkstown are working to keep rugby for those who want it. Easier option would be to drop out.
Branch, Leinster at least, seem to be pretty good at promoting the clubs and their activities but clubs need to be cleverer with their marketing/pr to get people in the gate playing. What kind of support do you want branch to do. They help with social media. Open days when? Its as much up to clubs to do that and be smart with their PR/Marketing than looking to the branch.

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Sunday rugby is a big problem we have J1s, J2s & 20s playing on Sundays & the odd time J3's as well. Can't field a 2nd 20s as no one wants 12 or 1 ko times on a Sunday. The fun needs to be put back in the game and administrators need to be a bit more creative doubling up fixtures on a Saturday between teams having home and away days possibly 3 junior teams playing that day great buzz and great bar night in club after. Not much imagination in scheduling and same cut and paste job each year. Senior game followed by a junior game if both clubs have teams in that division would be a big help. Excuse is usually referee availability or lack of referee's, branches need to work harder to attract referee's. Great ideas get put forward and agreed at Junior meeting with provinces but very few actually get implemented. A vibrant Junior section in any club leads to a healthy club better social atmosphere and more members. Needs addressing as numbers are falling almost everywhere in the metro area

Sunday rugby is an issue but how do you fix it? Doubling up would be great but what about the rural areas. Many of these ideas suit city teams but things get a considerable bit trickier for rural teams and costs are much bigger issue.
What do you propose that would attract more people to take up refereeing?

stephen_n · 11-01-2016 8:34pm

I think the clubs themselves shifted focus in a lot cases after the arrival of the AIL. The clubs became very much about the first team and the junior sections became less important. The funny thing about that, is healthier junior sections, would probably mean more support for the club game. It would mean fans would be more club centered, than province centered.

It's hard to tell, there are more clubs now but I'd say overall in the last 25 years that I've been playing junior rugby. The numbers playing the game have probably dropped by about 60%. If that trend continues there will be virtually no junior rugby.

shoutman · 12-01-2016 12:58pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I think the clubs themselves shifted focus in a lot cases after the arrival of the AIL. The clubs became very much about the first team and the junior sections became less important. The funny thing about that, is healthier junior sections, would probably mean more support for the club game. It would mean fans would be more club centered, than province centered.

It's hard to tell, there are more clubs now but I'd say overall in the last 25 years that I've been playing junior rugby. The numbers playing the game have probably dropped by about 60%. If that trend continues there will be virtually no junior rugby.

Have to agree with you here.
Even the big Dublin clubs would have their primary focus on their firsts, their under 20's and then the rest.

I would imagine that there are more mini's (12 years and under) playing now than there have ever been before, but it's a matter of keeping these playing throughout school and beyond - which has always been an issue.

The Lost Sheep · 12-01-2016 1:33pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I think the clubs themselves shifted focus in a lot cases after the arrival of the AIL. The clubs became very much about the first team and the junior sections became less important. The funny thing about that, is healthier junior sections, would probably mean more support for the club game. It would mean fans would be more club centered, than province centered.

It's hard to tell, there are more clubs now but I'd say overall in the last 25 years that I've been playing junior rugby. The numbers playing the game have probably dropped by about 60%. If that trend continues there will be virtually no junior rugby.

Yes the club focus will have shifted a fair bit since AIL started. How would you propose to change it? Trend wont continue that there's "virtually no junior rugby"..

shoutman wrote: »

Have to agree with you here.
Even the big Dublin clubs would have their primary focus on their firsts, their under 20's and then the rest.

I would imagine that there are more mini's (12 years and under) playing now than there have ever been before, but it's a matter of keeping these playing throughout school and beyond - which has always been an issue.

But when in so many areas if you want to play you have to play with a school, most only play in a school keeping players playing into adult game is much more difficult. Linking kids in schools to the clubs better and having them play in club competitions while in rugby schools needs to happen.
More 7/10/12 a side competitions need to be played to keep people in the sport

stephen_n · 12-01-2016 2:54pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes the club focus will have shifted a fair bit since AIL started. How would you propose to change it? Trend wont continue that there's "virtually no junior rugby"..
But when in so many areas if you want to play you have to play with a school, most only play in a school keeping players playing into adult game is much more difficult. Linking kids in schools to the clubs better and having them play in club competitions while in rugby schools needs to happen.
More 7/10/12 a side competitions need to be played to keep people in the sport

I don't know to be honest, but the Junior game is struggling big time.

I don't think linking kids is the answer either, Greystones has one of the biggest under age sections in the country a relatively healthy under 20's but is struggling to field 3 junior teams and our J4's have only one player under 30

The Lost Sheep · 12-01-2016 3:05pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I don't know to be honest, but the Junior game is struggling big time.

I don't think linking kids is the answer either, Greystones has one of the biggest under age sections in the country a relatively healthy under 20's but is struggling to field 3 junior teams and our J4's have only one player under 30

Linking kids to clubs is part of the answer. How many drop out of playing the sport to become armchair supporters for the pro teams and their school every January-March when at least if linking kids to clubs while in school gives them a stronger connection and more of a shot at staying playing the sport?

stephen_n · 12-01-2016 3:08pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Linking kids to clubs is part of the answer. How many drop out of playing the sport to become armchair supporters for the pro teams and their school every January-March when at least if linking kids to clubs while in school gives them a stronger connection and more of a shot at staying playing the sport?

Part maybe but certainly not the answer, as far as I can see the under age club game has steadily increased over the last 20 years. While the junior game has steadily gone in the other direction. Maybe in the greater scheme of things the IRFU doesn't really care about junior rugby, the fans are already created in underage.

The Lost Sheep · 12-01-2016 3:13pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Part maybe but certainly not the answer, as far as I can see the under age club game has steadily increased over the last 20 years. While the junior game has steadily gone in the other direction. Maybe in the greater scheme of things the IRFU doesn't really care about junior rugby, the fans are already created in underage.

What would you propose to change things in the junior game? In greater scheme of things IRFU possibly don't care enough about social adult rugby but what would you see as ways to improve things?

Tim Robbins · 12-01-2016 3:36pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I don't know to be honest, but the Junior game is struggling big time.

I don't think linking kids is the answer either, Greystones has one of the biggest under age sections in the country a relatively healthy under 20's but is struggling to field 3 junior teams and our J4's have only one player under 30

You make some very thought provoking points.

One thing I think might help is you know the way development officers pop out to some youth set ups, if they also popped out to some Junior clubs / teams and helped make their training sessions better. Then more lads might turn up and show a bit more commitment.

A lot of training for junior teams is a game of 10 aside tip, followed by hitting bags. It's not the most advanced in terms of skills development. If you the sessions were better and skills were developed people would enjoy the matches a bit more and show some commitment.

But this all goes back to my point, I think one major weakness in Irish rugby is coaching. We just don't have that many really good ones.

I know you could counter that by saying well back in the day, they were hardly any better and that's true however, with other sporting options available for people now, maybe rugby has to up its game. Back in the day, when the 7th's were training on the back pitch in Greystones, Poppywell was probably over to say hello. That doesn't happen anymore.

And now lads can do anything from UFC, to boxing, to going solo in the gym, to blah blah blah and if two hours rugby training isn't as much fun or enjoyable from a sporting perspective they'll jump to something else.

The Lost Sheep · 12-01-2016 4:37pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You make some very thought provoking points.

One thing I think might help is you know the way development officers pop out to some youth set ups, if they also popped out to some Junior clubs/teams and helped make their training sessions better. Then more lads might turn up and show a bit more commitment.

A lot of training for junior teams is a game of 10 aside tip, followed by hitting bags. It's not the most advanced in terms of skills development. If you the sessions were better and skills were developed people would enjoy the matches a bit more and show some commitment.

But this all goes back to my point, I think one major weakness in Irish rugby is coaching. We just don't have that many really good ones.

I know you could counter that by saying well back in the day, they were hardly any better and that's true however, with other sporting options available for people now, maybe rugby has to up its game. Back in the day, when the 7th's were training on the back pitch in Greystones, Poppywell was probably over to say hello. That doesn't happen anymore.

And now lads can do anything from UFC, to boxing, to going solo in the gym, to blah blah blah and if two hours rugby training isn't as much fun or enjoyable from a sporting perspective they'll jump to something else.

Development officers can only do so much. Yes they should be doing a bit more but what do you want them to do to Adult level? Clubs should be learning from their top coaches as much as anything especially if we're talking about social rugby in clubs with 3/4/5 teams. Clubs should have director of rugby to over see what club is doing at all levels and/or first team coach should be involved as its in their interests if all levels of club are working in same direction

JPNelsforearm · 12-01-2016 5:03pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You make some very thought provoking points.

One thing I think might help is you know the way development officers pop out to some youth set ups, if they also popped out to some Junior clubs / teams and helped make their training sessions better. Then more lads might turn up and show a bit more commitment.

A lot of training for junior teams is a game of 10 aside tip, followed by hitting bags. It's not the most advanced in terms of skills development. If you the sessions were better and skills were developed people would enjoy the matches a bit more and show some commitment.

But this all goes back to my point, I think one major weakness in Irish rugby is coaching. We just don't have that many really good ones.

And now lads can do anything from UFC, to boxing, to going solo in the gym, to blah blah blah and if two hours rugby training isn't as much fun or enjoyable from a sporting perspective they'll jump to something else.

Speaking as someone who has done just that along with a load of mates I know from various under 20's teams. They are all still in great nick, mid twenties, but no intention of playing.
Currently I cycle when its sunny, bjj in the winter and lift weights year round. messing on a rainy muddy night with old school training that has little relevance to a match isnt appealing to me.
I remember togging out last year for j1s and getting flogged on a thursday doing hennie mullers in the rain. Then playing the match on sat and the team blowing out their arse on 50 mins wondering why lol. I want to play rugby not have cardio sessions.

Standard of reffing varies wildly also, you get some decent ones and some utterly appalling ones.

astonaidan · 12-01-2016 5:23pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Played my first game of the season on Saturday, been out injured. Ended up playing for the opposition though:pac: Things seem to be as bad as ever with junor rugby. We were scheduled to play Monkstown in the J4 league, they couldn't field a full team but if they conceded without starting they would be out of the league. In the end one of their coaches started the game, purely to make up numbers. They conceded after the first try was scored and we made up the numbers to play a friendly. Monkstown seem to be totally screwed for players. Having said that, I know we have struggled too at all levels this season. It's mad to think that in my first few years playing junior rugby, Greystones had 9 junior teams at cup time and now struggle to field three in the leagues. Monkstown had probably 5 in those days and now struggle to have one team. The only teams I can see who are growing are Mary's and Clontarf. I think the branch might want to look at promoting the game as a played sport after underage level.

Were the same out west, we had the best team in Connacht for two years while we were winning we had loads of lads turning up, things got a little hard this year and 15 lads showed up for a first team game, total joke.
What Ive said for years, is lads are getting picked when they arent showing up for training and going on the lash the night before.
Whats funny is its never the stars of our team doing this, its the guys who are middle but know they wont get dropped.

stephen_n · 13-01-2016 2:37pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What would you propose to change things in the junior game? In greater scheme of things IRFU possibly don't care enough about social adult rugby but what would you see as ways to improve things?

I think encouraging something to span the gap would help. Maybe something like turning the J3 league into a 75% U23 league, so as the U20's teams break through, the ones who don't make the firsts can move as a group. This would allow them to slowly integrate with the junior section, get to know players and become socially attached to the club. I think players give up because they are going to be dispersed into teams they have no real attachment to. It may not work but would be worth a try.

stephen_n · 13-01-2016 2:39pm

astonaidan wrote: »

Were the same out west, we had the best team in Connacht for two years while we were winning we had loads of lads turning up, things got a little hard this year and 15 lads showed up for a first team game, total joke.
What Ive said for years, is lads are getting picked when they arent showing up for training and going on the lash the night before.
Whats funny is its never the stars of our team doing this, its the guys who are middle but know they wont get dropped.

Always been a bug bear of mine, causes problems in the team. It would make for far stronger teams if those who trained got picked first. No club seems willing to do it though.

astonaidan · 13-01-2016 3:27pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Always been a bug bear of mine, causes problems in the team. It would make for far stronger teams if those who trained got picked first. No club seems willing to do it though.

Its the reason I wouldnt go back and play this year when I came home from abroad, I played in Toronto and well if you missed training without a valid reason you werent playing on the weekend, but my home team had guys I only met when their was game day

LeopoldButters · 13-01-2016 4:36pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Played my first game of the season on Saturday, been out injured. Ended up playing for the opposition though:pac: Things seem to be as bad as ever with junor rugby. We were scheduled to play Monkstown in the J4 league, they couldn't field a full team but if they conceded without starting they would be out of the league. In the end one of their coaches started the game, purely to make up numbers. They conceded after the first try was scored and we made up the numbers to play a friendly. Monkstown seem to be totally screwed for players. Having said that, I know we have struggled too at all levels this season. It's mad to think that in my first few years playing junior rugby, Greystones had 9 junior teams at cup time and now struggle to field three in the leagues. Monkstown had probably 5 in those days and now struggle to have one team. The only teams I can see who are growing are Mary's and Clontarf. I think the branch might want to look at promoting the game as a played sport after underage level.

I'm not sure about two teams only growing....there is going to be a gap period with a number of clubs as their mini's is less that 20 years old and the conveyor belt is still not working.

...but clubs like Coolmine, Terenure, Malahide, DLSP all have huge mini sections that should turn into players, Stillorgan recently purchased their own land so they have big plans and all the clubs named above have rugby tots from 2.5 years.

So clubs are growing but it is up to individual clubs to expand in their community

The Lost Sheep · 13-01-2016 4:54pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I think encouraging something to span the gap would help. Maybe something like turning the J3 league into a 75% U23 league, so as the U20's teams break through, the ones who don't make the firsts can move as a group. This would allow them to slowly integrate with the junior section, get to know players and become socially attached to the club. I think players give up because they are going to be dispersed into teams they have no real attachment to. It may not work but would be worth a try.

Having an under23 league or primarily may help but is slowly integrating those finishing up youths/schools rugby really going to keep more playing the sport?

LeopoldButters wrote: »

I'm not sure about two teams only growing....there is going to be a gap period with a number of clubs as their mini's is less that 20 years old and the conveyor belt is still not working.

...but clubs like Coolmine, Terenure, Malahide, DLSP all have huge mini sections that should turn into players, Stillorgan recently purchased their own land so they have big plans and all the clubs named above have rugby tots from 2.5 years.

So clubs are growing but it is up to individual clubs to expand in their community

How many of the clubs with huge mini sections have strong youths sections with teams competing at variety of levels of club age grade rugby? Clubs are growing but what would you see them needing to do to expand in their community?

stephen_n · 13-01-2016 6:54pm

LeopoldButters wrote: »

I'm not sure about two teams only growing....there is going to be a gap period with a number of clubs as their mini's is less that 20 years old and the conveyor belt is still not working.

...but clubs like Coolmine, Terenure, Malahide, DLSP all have huge mini sections that should turn into players, Stillorgan recently purchased their own land so they have big plans and all the clubs named above have rugby tots from 2.5 years.

So clubs are growing but it is up to individual clubs to expand in their community

Greystones has a huge youth section , 3 years ago had two under 20's teams, 3 years on only 8 of those are still playing in the club. Retention is the issue.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Having an under23 league or primarily may help but is slowly integrating those finishing up youths/schools rugby really going to keep more playing the sport?

It might, there is no solid explanation for the firsts or nothing attitude. Prevous to moving to junior rugby players step up together all the time, the lack of continutiy may well be the off putting factor for a lot of players. Obviously college, work etc are big factors too. However I think it would be worth a try as nothing much else is working.

The Lost Sheep · 15-01-2016 4:49pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Greystones has a huge youth section, 3 years ago had two under 20's teams, 3 years on only 8 of those are still playing in the club. Retention is the issue.

Retention is an issue but just having an u23 league isn't anything like a solution
Do Greystones still have huge youths section? What comps do they play?
They've 1 side in school/youths league at 14s/15s/17s and none in youths leagues.

It might, there is no solid explanation for the firsts or nothing attitude. Prevous to moving to junior rugby players step up together all the time, the lack of continutiy may well be the off putting factor for a lot of players. Obviously college, work etc are big factors too. However I think it would be worth a try as nothing much else is working.

But then you are just putting things off with a u23 league. You need to link the kids from early age in some form or another to the senior parts of a club.

Cup draws have been made. First games for most sides is tomorrow fortnight

gaius c · 15-01-2016 7:04pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Played my first game of the season on Saturday, been out injured. Ended up playing for the opposition though:pac: Things seem to be as bad as ever with junor rugby. We were scheduled to play Monkstown in the J4 league, they couldn't field a full team but if they conceded without starting they would be out of the league. In the end one of their coaches started the game, purely to make up numbers. They conceded after the first try was scored and we made up the numbers to play a friendly. Monkstown seem to be totally screwed for players. Having said that, I know we have struggled too at all levels this season. It's mad to think that in my first few years playing junior rugby, Greystones had 9 junior teams at cup time and now struggle to field three in the leagues. Monkstown had probably 5 in those days and now struggle to have one team. The only teams I can see who are growing are Mary's and Clontarf. I think the branch might want to look at promoting the game as a played sport after underage level.

That's pretty bad, especially considering they already merged their div 10 team into their div 6 team to make that div 7 team.

Re lower player numbers.
1. Demographics. See images below and take note of the playing age bracket.
2. A good chunk of them have emigrated.
3. Interest has waned. High water mark was late noughties. You could virtually see the recruitment stream to j4/5 drying up after that RWC QF.

gaius c · 15-01-2016 7:05pm

If anybody wants the j4/5 cup draws, drop me a pm with email.
Haven't got the time to post them up here.

Junior Rugby [Social Rugby] Season 2015/2016

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