Legal advice employer issue-so stressed out!!!

Avatar MIA

fairycakes wrote: »

Hi Avatar with this crowd seven months. I got notice 5 days ago re meeting and handed in my notice 4 days ago. No in my opinion its not gross misconduct as its all hearsay (if that makes sense).

Hi, that you're there less than a year is significant as it's effectively a year long probation period regardless of what the official probation period.

As far as I'm aware you need to be given sufficient time to prepare for a disciplinary meeting. I thought this was at least 2 weeks.

However, as mentioned above, being within one year of employment is a weak position to be in.

It's a pity you feel the need to resign.

fairycakes

I already had a job lined up so I was always going to be leaving in the next month. I am so disgusted with how I have been treated that I couldn't work for them any longer :mad:

Avatar MIA

fairycakes wrote: »

I already had a job lined up so I was always going to be leaving in the next month.

Ah that's good news. You're entitled to be paid for untaken annual leave. This is the only time the company is allowed to pay you for AL.

fairycakes

So i am entitled to all my leave? regardless if they fire me?? As i haven't taking any at all since i started. Also if they don't give me all my annually leave can i report them to the tax office? thanks Avatar x

Avatar MIA

fairycakes wrote: »

So i am entitled to all my leave? regardless if they fire me?? As i haven't taking any at all since i started. Also if they don't give me all my annually leave can i report them to the tax office? thanks Avatar x

They have to pay you your salary and for the AL untaken, which works out at 1.67 days per month if you are on statutory 20 days AL. If you were with them 7 months and have not taken AL you'd be entitled to approx 11.7 days extra pay.

They cannot deduct from this unless you agree and sign to deductions.

Hypothetically, if a person were accused of stealing €100 worth of stock, the company cannot deduct this from pay. They would need to instigate separate legal proceedings.

There is one exception I can think of, say a person took one days sick leave in the seven months and the company paid for this at the time, it's possible they MAY be able to claw this back as AL.

fairycakes

Brilliant they are the type of company that will try and pull a fast one!!

Avatar MIA

Sorry, should add. IF they didn't pay you your annual leave it wouldn't be the tax office you'd report them to, but NERA 3ws.workplacerelations.ie/ (can't post full links)

However, it would be rare a company would be silly enough not to pay statutory rights.

Mrs OBumble

fairycakes wrote: »

Does anybody know if you have handed in your notice do you still have to attend this meeting? and can you get fired if you have already handed in your notice ( I am basically working my notice out at present-2 weeks) thanks guys for your help.

Go anyway - to find out exactly what they're going to say about you. Your aim is simply to leave with your reputation no more damaged than it needs to be.

And it's worth going just for the experience, so you know what these sort of meetings are like if you ever have to go into one again.

If they do fire you now, an employment solicitor might be able to help you get some cash out of the, because it's likely they'll make a procedural b*** up of it. But it may or may not be worth the stress.

RainyDay

fairycakes wrote: »

Thank you I will check them out. Just wondering are you allowed to join the trade union after an incident? or do you have to be an existing member to have them represent you?

No disrespect, but it's a bit like asking if you can wait until AFTER the car crash to buy car insurance. As a union member, I hope that unions don't operate like this.

Stheno wrote: »

No problem at all, people often think that unions have far greater powers than they have. The most famous case was Ryanair winning the right not to recognise unions whatsoever in the Supreme Court.

You can try as an individual to have a union represent you, but the company can refuse to deal with them.

It's still an area that isn't black and white in law, but currently sides with the employer.

Not true, the law changed a few weeks ago. Employees now have a full legal right to be represented by their union. regardless of whether management want to negotiate or not.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But remember that if it's your colleagues who have shafted you already, then those same colleagues may well be union members. And the union will have to represent the majority of it's member, ie support the colleagues not you.

You're right to flag this issue, but it is not as black and white as you suggest. Your support in an issue like this will be your union official, not your fellow members. While there may well be a relationship between the two that could complicate things a bit, it is not a case of 'having to represent the majority'. Union officials are trained in ethical representation - to do the right thing.

LegacyUser

fairycakes wrote: »

I think the union would be IMPACT so might just give them a call and see what they say. Awful to be treated so badly and feel like have no support whatsoever especially if you are the kind of person that doesn't like to argue over things!

Impact are a public sector union. They don't operate in the private sector. Contact Siptu or Unite.

Mrs OBumble

RainyDay wrote: »

You're right to flag this issue, but it is not as black and white as you suggest. Your support in an issue like this will be your union official, not your fellow members. While there may well be a relationship between the two that could complicate things a bit, it is not a case of 'having to represent the majority'. Union officials are trained in ethical representation - to do the right thing.

Yes and no.

Union officials salaries are paid by members. Unions have no power at all, unless their members are willing to take industrial action in support of the union position.

So there have been plenty of cases where a union has represented its members wishes, but this has been to the detriment of individual workers whose interests have been different from the majority.

3DataModem

If you are resigning I strongly advise not attending the disciplinary meeting. Find an excuse not to make it. They can have it without you, but you don't want a hearing like that on file.

RainyDay

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yes and no.

Union officials salaries are paid by members. Unions have no power at all, unless their members are willing to take industrial action in support of the union position.

So there have been plenty of cases where a union has represented its members wishes, but this has been to the detriment of individual workers whose interests have been different from the majority.

Yes and No! You're right in what you, but the impact of this depends very on the nature of the individual's dispute or concern. In most cases, the individual dispute or grievance or disciplinary will not be relating to an issue that the local union branch has taken a formal position on. Therefore the union official will be well able to support the individual member. They will probably point out that it is your dispute, not their the union's dispute - and their role is to support the member rather than to negotiate the solution.

3DataModem wrote: »

If you are resigning I strongly advise not attending the disciplinary meeting. Find an excuse not to make it. They can have it without you, but you don't want a hearing like that on file.

Yes and No! My first thought was in agreement with you - to get out asap with as little pain as possible. But the meeting could also be an opportunity to address the issue, clear the air, clear your record and leave on good terms. It all depends on the nature of the dispute.

Hachiko

seems like a brutal place, good job you got out. Having a job lined up is the best result you could have wished for.

the_syco

RainyDay wrote: »

Yes and No! My first thought was in agreement with you - to get out asap with as little pain as possible. But the meeting could also be an opportunity to address the issue, clear the air, clear your record and leave on good terms. It all depends on the nature of the dispute.

I agree with 3DataModem; best to leave on your own terms, than leave after a gross misconduct hearing. Also, if asked, the employer would be truthful in saying that the OP left the company after a meeting about gross misconduct, if they did attend.

Hachiko

yeah if you have a job lined up and deep down you want them all to rot in the deepest of hell, its best to leave in good terms. When you exit the place and are within 20 yards of the building it is within your rights to yell-

*** you all, a$$ holes.

and go get a pint and move on swiftly and upwards.

jimmycrackcorm

fairycakes wrote:

Hi Avatar with this crowd seven months. I got notice 5 days ago re meeting and handed in my notice 4 days ago. No in my opinion its not gross misconduct as its all hearsay (if that makes sense).

You should have someone with you if only to make notes and make sure that you have recorded that it is hearsay.

Despite your notice, don't give then the satisfaction of trying to pin gross misconduct on something that can't be proven. But just in case they do you can have the satisfaction of a Labour court case for something that can't be proved.

delthedriver

Op, you need to engage the services of an employment law specialist.


It is important that you leave on good terms , with a good reference and your reputation intact.

fairycakes

Guys they are saying i can only take a co worker or union rep with me to this meeting - so now changed from a representative to co worker or union rep (funny it was after i mentioned solicitor)!! I am not in a union and don't want any co worker with me. I am going to a solicitor who are specialists in employment law!!:(

Stheno

fairycakes wrote: »

Guys they are saying i can only take a co worker or union rep with me to this meeting - so now changed from a representative to co worker or union rep (funny it was after i mentioned solicitor)!! I am not in a union and don't want any co worker with me. I am going to a solicitor who are specialists in employment law!!:(

They don't have to let you take just anyone, they can specify.

You were told earlier in the thread that it would be unlikely you can have a legal rep with you!

MarkAnthony

fairycakes wrote: »

Guys they are saying i can only take a co worker or union rep with me to this meeting - so now changed from a representative to co worker or union rep (funny it was after i mentioned solicitor)!! I am not in a union and don't want any co worker with me. I am going to a solicitor who are specialists in employment law!!:(

Fairly standard. Do you have a friend that could go with you, sometimes that will be allowed, play it right make sure it's documented if they refuse.

STOP telling your employer what you're up to. Keep your cards close and speak to a solicitor.

Stheno

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Fairly standard. Do you have a friend that could go with you, sometimes that will be allowed, play it right make sure it's documented if they refuse.

Now they've laid down conditions, they won't.

I actually don't understand why op is even considering going to this meeting given they are leaving in two weeks.

If I were them I'd blithely ignore it, they have a new job to go to etc, so nothing to be gained from all of this.

MarkAnthony

Stheno wrote: »

Now they've laid down conditions, they won't.

I actually don't understand why op is even considering going to this meeting given they are leaving in two weeks.

If I were them I'd blithely ignore it, they have a new job to go to etc, so nothing to be gained from all of this.

Perhaps, perhaps not. It's more of a ploy to set up for a potential arbitration tbh.

Even if the OP is leaving - I get the impression they don't actually know what they're doing - a solicitor will put manners on for a reference etc.

Stheno

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Perhaps, perhaps not. It's more of a ploy to set up for a potential arbitration tbh.

Even if the OP is leaving - I get the impression they don't actually know what they're doing - a solicitor will put manners on for a reference etc.

True, the one time, over 15 years ago that I had issues with an employer, bringing even the mention of a solicitor into it had them running for the hills.

They were playing with fire, so any comeback at all worked.

fairycakes

I don't want to go to the meeting I feel physical sick with stress over all this. The thing is my name is going be dragged through the mud over something that is absolute bullsh*t!!!! hence why I want to get some advice.

Stheno

You're out of there in two weeks, with a new job to go to.

refuse to participate

davo10

The disciplinary meeting is the second stage in the disciplinary process, the first being the forwarding to you of correspondence outlining the allegations plus supporting witness statements. They are required to hold this meeting without undue delay so a week's notice is typical. They are not required to allow a solicitor to be present and as a previous poster said, at this stage it would be unnecessary and expensive to do so. Ask a co-worker to go with you, effectively it is just to take notes, the employer is not required to answer any questions put forward by whoever accompanies you, they must hear your responses only to the allegations. You are entitled to question any witnesses referred to in the allegations at that meeting. They may specify from the outset that no audio nor visual recording can be made using your phone or recording device, if you do record it, it will be difficult to get it admitted later to a ET as they will have expressly denied permission for the meeting to be recorded. Ask your friend to take short hand notes, you can write out a more accurate account later.

They will start off by outlining the scope of the meeting, potential sanctions up to and including dismissal. You will be asked if you understand this then the allegations will be put to you and you will be asked for your response. You will already have notice of the allegations so have your responses ready. After this the meeting will be adjoined and reconvened a day or two later to give you your sanction if they deem it necessary. This could be nothing/verbal warning/written warning/suspension/dismissal. Depending on the sanction, now is the time to get legal advice, you will have seven days to lodge an appeal with your employer. The appeal is heard by an independent arbitrator and a solicitor will write your appeal and advise you on what to say, this is typically only of value if you are being dismissed. Failing all that and the appeal fails, you can take your case to an Employment Tribunal but you must have been employed for over a year to have access to this.

I note earlier that a poster said the mere threat of a solicitors letter is a deterant for employers to continue with the process, this is crap, all representative bodies including ISME have HR/legal advisors who advise employers on these matters, if a letter is received they just instruct members to scan/fax it to them and they will advise of appropriate response.

As others have posted, the meeting is just one part of a longer process including appeals and visits to solicitors office/expense etc. if you are leaving and starting a new job, do you really want to be taking time off to get legal advice and to attend appeals hearings? Just give notice and get a cert from your Dr for the notice period, once you are gone out the door, there is really no benefit for the employer to continue the process.

Avatar MIA

Taking aboard what is said above.

If it were me and wrongly accused I'd very much want to attend the meeting and set matters straight.

We live in a very small word communications wise and I'd not let this remain unanswered.

LegacyUser

OP

If you are leaving in 2 weeks anyway, could you approach them & say it is in all your best interests to let this drop? Put your case to them in relation to your innocence & tell them you will be pursuing this all the way to clear your name even if you are gone. Ask them if they really want to waste time & money on this when you are on your way out the door anyway. Tell them you will be happy to get a good reference from them with no mention of this on your file.

I know you would prefer to get it all sorted if you are being accused in the wrong but it is a lot of aggravation when you are going to be working somewhere else (hopefully nicer!) very soon.

maca123

I've been in the exact same position. Except I brought a union rep.

He made my employers realise they messed up, and got them to offer me compensation at a rights commissioner hearing after filing for unfair dismissal, when I didn't accept a small severance package at the disciplinary meeting and got fired. What I learned afterwards about the process is that when you fight employers in this situation, there is no clearing your name as such, and it's really only about compensation money. most people in these cases look for compensation, not to be reinstated. So you leave the company with money and no reference.

If you don't need a good reference from them with this new job, there's no big problem there.
Join a union in your new job.