Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

frazzledhome

whelan2 wrote: »

Jeeny lads don't be telling everyone. The market will be flooded with beef calves

But that's not my point, I'm trying to streamline and make more profit from milking cows. If the beef calf price tanks that's ok too as any coloured breed is more saleable younger than a fr bull.

mahoney_j

Dawggone wrote: »

We'll buy from you then!

Any special offers? Or will we wait until your January sales?

1795 and upwards will do me so!!,none been sold this year ,expansion .all young stock now genotype and 2017 will see me with stock for sale again

alps

browned wrote: »

Been Ai breeding for 3 weeks the last couple of years. You'll get plenty of replacements and more importantly you'll be breeding off cows that hold first time.
Next year I'm going all beef and will purchase replacements from autumn 2017 onwards similar reason to you. Purchase as cheap as one can rear and you can purchase the numbers you require

I completely understand your motivation on this, but have run the figures and given this quiet some consideration .

We milk 120 cows, 80 acres rearing 50+ heifers. Calves stay on the home block till after grass on rented silage ground and rented grazing back end...housed 1st Dec this year. They go to a rearer for their second grazing season, so from March year 2 they become only a variable cost. Total rearing cost to October year 2 just shy of 1100.
ThIs Means
We control breeding of our own stock
We control the critical first 49 days of the replacements life.
Calves turned out late April on home block and after grass stops them being too much of a demand on home block.
Simple winter housing for th weanlings.
When we have scanned the home herd and know our requirements we then go to the rearers and have the "choice of the best of a group of 50"
This year we brought home the best 8 heifers of that group..(3 empties at home).Their value could easily be 1600+
The balance are sold, averaging 1350 for last 3 years

The rearer has enough in the group of 50 so doesn't need to take in extra heifers to make it viable. We have in the past given him bull Calves against payment so as to keep stock up to viable levels so our stock will be the only ones on his farm.

Not sure if there is any right and wrong about this..

RightTurnClyde

frazzledhome wrote: »

But that's not my point, I'm trying to streamline and make more profit from milking cows. If the beef calf price tanks that's ok too as any coloured breed is more saleable younger than a fr bull.

Could you not just contract it out start to finish, 10 days old to just before calving. Zero input or involvement.
Did flying herd here before, good stock but ended up with too high a cull rate. They just didn't last.

RightTurnClyde

alps wrote: »

I completely understand your motivation on this, but have run the figures and given this quiet some consideration .

We milk 120 cows, 80 acres rearing 50+ heifers. Calves stay on the home block till after grass on rented silage ground and rented grazing back end...housed 1st Dec this year. They go to a rearer for their second grazing season, so from March year 2 they become only a variable cost. Total rearing cost to October year 2 just shy of 1100.
ThIs Means
We control breeding of our own stock
We control the critical first 49 days of the replacements life.
Calves turned out late April on home block and after grass stops them being too much of a demand on home block.
Simple winter housing for th weanlings.
When we have scanned the home herd and know our requirements we then go to the rearers and have the "choice of the best of a group of 50"
This year we brought home the best 8 heifers of that group..(3 empties at home).Their value could easily be 1600+
The balance are sold, averaging 1350 for last 3 years

The rearer has enough in the group of 50 so doesn't need to take in extra heifers to make it viable. We have in the past given him bull Calves against payment so as to keep stock up to viable levels so our stock will be the only ones on his farm.

Not sure if there is any right and wrong about this..

Snap, that's exactly what I'm at here. The rearer has plenty of ground so up to this year he has been building numbers, but from this year on he's taking all my bull calves from 10 days old. I rear the heifers to 11 months. They go to his place 1st of Feb at 11 months of age and get them back Dec before calving.
I'm getting the pickings of bigger number of heifers. The excess heifers are leaving a profit of ~€250. So my own heifers are costing me approx, €1200. His place is used to supply silage for here aswell.

browned

alps wrote: »

I completely understand your motivation on this, but have run the figures and given this quiet some consideration .

We milk 120 cows, 80 acres rearing 50+ heifers. Calves stay on the home block till after grass on rented silage ground and rented grazing back end...housed 1st Dec this year. They go to a rearer for their second grazing season, so from March year 2 they become only a variable cost. Total rearing cost to October year 2 just shy of 1100.
ThIs Means
We control breeding of our own stock
We control the critical first 49 days of the replacements life.
Calves turned out late April on home block and after grass stops them being too much of a demand on home block.
Simple winter housing for th weanlings.
When we have scanned the home herd and know our requirements we then go to the rearers and have the "choice of the best of a group of 50"
This year we brought home the best 8 heifers of that group..(3 empties at home).Their value could easily be 1600+
The balance are sold, averaging 1350 for last 3 years

The rearer has enough in the group of 50 so doesn't need to take in extra heifers to make it viable. We have in the past given him bull Calves against payment so as to keep stock up to viable levels so our stock will be the only ones on his farm.

Not sure if there is any right and wrong about this..

Haven't done the sums properly but I've only a milking block. Not outside ground. Replacement rate is low with only 5 nic last year and 2 this year. I can replace the heifers with milking cows reducing from 3 groups to 1, labour saving all year round there. Sell all calves at 2-3 weeks old so huge labour saving in spring and for the rest of the year I've only cows to look after. Keep the stocking rate high to reduce surpluses and buy in winter feed. Purchase the repl as I require then. Stock Bulls could mean no more ai needed. I'm not saying it's the right way but i can see it working for me.. I've contract reared before but you need big numbers to make it work as you say 50+ animals.

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

Dawg you're on the ball. What's wrong with going to Stan or Mj, discussing my requirements they supplying heifers calved and maintaining their heifer numbers.

It's all about building relationships in time and sticking to your deal. I know of 10-12 herds I'd have no issues dealing with fr stock.

I recon I could buy genetic gain as easily and as cheaply by buying as by breeding.

I've been buying in cows for the last 4yrs to increase the herd. I've bought locally and abroad. The first 50/60 that I bought are all gone from the herd as, like Clyde, they just didn't last.
Changed tack then and I'll only buy the animals from a herd that I pick out. Now when I go to a herd I pick out the ones I like, then look at records etc and whittle it down. No problems so far.

I took your advise last year Frazz and have gone down the flying herd route. I'm looking forward to when there are only cows here. Much simpler and to me the more simple a system the better, especially when busy like harvesting, irrigating etc.


Re genetic gain, there's an old saying in the horse world...fools breed for smart men to buy.

Timmaay

With zero rented land outside the milking block here, I could well go down the road of purchasing stock also, I need dairy farmers to keep knocking out excess heifers for this to work though! Equally so the likes of an out farm of 50acres might show up for long term lease and I could be selling excess heifers in afew years. In fairness it's to both sides advantage that we have farmers knocking out too many heifers, and other farmers to buy them. It's also important that it all remains a reasonably steady market, not much point me looking at heifers for sale right now for 1100each, thinking yay I'm going to breed no more replacements and buy in instead, and next year the price of them all rockets to 2k+ because of a shortage in supply.

pedigree 6

I've a small herd here and we've always been spring calving. We calve from mid jan to start april. We take the bull away from the cows at the first or second week in july. Any cows that don't go in calf in this time are dried off with the rest of the cows last days of nov and fattened for the factory. I buy a freisian bull calf every year from a milk recorded herd every year to keep as a stock bull first year with the heifers and next year with the cows. I know the stories with dud bulls but checking stock every day I should be able to spot if any cows/heifers are bulling and if been lucky so far touch wood. I keep the first 10 heifer calves for replacements and the rest are sold.
By doing this I've now got a fertile herd, I know vaccinating and minerals help and bulls are usually better at getting cows in calf than ai but I think genetics are playing a part too.
Two years ago I culled more cows than normal and had to buy in cows to replace them. Only a few of those cows lasted in the herd the others went either not going in calf or just freak accident with one breaking her hip after another cow jumped on her the wrong way. Also farmers who milk record are not going to sell their best stock to you. Unless you can buy in a dispersal sale. On paper it looks a good idea but personally it's not for me.

Timmaay

The opposite here pedigree, we've bought in 14 cows/heifers in 3 different batches here over the last 3 to 5years, all 14 are still in the herd now! I'll admit fully we could well have brought in disease with them, but equally so maybe the Ai man etc has also .

frazzledhome

Timmaay wrote: »

The opposite here pedigree, we've bought in 14 cows/heifers in 3 different batches here over the last 3 to 5years, all 14 are still in the herd now! I'll admit fully we could well have brought in disease with them, but equally so maybe the Ai man etc has also .

Bought 60 in calf xbred heifers in Sept 09 calved feb 10, only culled first 4 last week.

They cost €950 and have given some service

Pacoa

Heifers are cheap now but when the price of milk starts to go up, so will the price of heifers. What will yee do about buying in stock then when you'll be forking out 2k per heifer or will yee be changing back to rearing your own then? You have to look at the long term.

pedigree 6

frazzledhome wrote: »

Bought 60 in calf xbred heifers in Sept 09 calved feb 10, only culled first 4 last week.

They cost €950 and have given some service

The xbred will be more fertile than a purebred. I like myself the high ebi irish freisian and they are milking and going incalf for me.

When I was down in kildalton,they had a pedigree herd of freisian Holsteins although they were nearly Holstein. Anyway they had a red and white Ayrshire cow who was 12 years old and they were putting beef straws on her and she went in calf every time so she remained. They didn't like her because she didn't fit in with the rest of the cows. I had to laugh at the time that she was one of their best cows and they didn't like her because they wanted all the herd the same. I think they changed tack since I left and are now xbreeding.

When you are spring calving only, you have to be ruthless and any cow that doesn't go incalf from last week of april to first week in july is gone otherwise you will end up milking all year round. Plus I like my time off I the winter.

browned

Pacoa wrote: »

Heifers are cheap now but when the price of milk starts to go up, so will the price of heifers. What will yee do about buying in stock then when you'll be forking out 2k per heifer or will yee be changing back to rearing your own then? You have to look at the long term.

Swings and roundabouts. When the price is up it'll mean the ground used to rear heifers will be producing milk. It'll average out over time

frazzledhome

Pacoa wrote: »

Heifers are cheap now but when the price of milk starts to go up, so will the price of heifers. What will yee do about buying in stock then when you'll be forking out 2k per heifer or will yee be changing back to rearing your own then? You have to look at the long term.

it's cheaper to buy In than rear and I can't see that changing for some time yet.

mahoney_j

frazzledhome wrote: »

it's cheaper to buy In than rear and I can't see that changing for some time yet.

Fully agree ,talking to neighbour during week who off loaded 15 heifers during week ,all calving February to Ai with mothers milk records available and ebi averaging 196 .asked him what sort of twine he got ,great money he replied 1350 each .buyer got great value ,my neighbour lost roughly 150 plus a head

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

it's cheaper to buy In than rear and I can't see that changing for some time yet.

For now. But sure as night follows day that will change.


I'm buying now and culling anything that even looks sideways at me. Then with a young herd if prices look to take off I can stock up (as it were) and have enough to tide me over for a couple of years.


On writing that I can see many holes in the plan!

Greengrass1

pedigree 6 wrote: »

The xbred will be more fertile than a purebred. I like myself the high ebi irish freisian and they are milking and going incalf for me.

When I was down in kildalton,they had a pedigree herd of freisian Holsteins although they were nearly Holstein. Anyway they had a red and white Ayrshire cow who was 12 years old and they were putting beef straws on her and she went in calf every time so she remained. They didn't like her because she didn't fit in with the rest of the cows. I had to laugh at the time that she was one of their best cows and they didn't like her because they wanted all the herd the same. I think they changed tack since I left and are now xbreeding.

When you are spring calving only, you have to be ruthless and any cow that doesn't go incalf from last week of april to first week in july is gone otherwise you will end up milking all year round. Plus I like my time off I the winter.

Doesn't matter if your winter or soring supplier. Same rules should apply.
I'm going to serve 4 cows tgat are empty from spring. First time we've done it in 4 yrs and something I'm against but I want to serve 130 between autumn and spring so i can hit max no's asap.
As soon as that happens ill be ruthless and ill be getting rid of bottom cows in the herd on yield and solids aswell as scc

orm0nd

whelan2 wrote: »

Everyone is in a different situation. I will AI what I need to get replacements and then beef on the rest. Buying in is not an option here. Have even been stung too many times.

I see a consignment of Austrian Flekveih (spelling?) arrived in your neck of the woods in the last couple of days

whelan2

orm0nd wrote: »

I see a consignment of Austrian Flekveih (spelling?) arrived in your neck of the woods in the last couple of days

Now I will be wondering who has them.

keep going

we had a cow abort 2 weeks ago and 2 over the week end so getting a little nervous.dropping the last one into the lab .one of the ones over the weekend was dried off so wondering when her milk can go into the tank,she has a month of withdrawal to go

Milked out

Last cow calved last nite/ this morning bb bull out of ATG. Biggish guy went a day over. Out of the two blues used in last few years DBZ seems to have a shorter gestation by a couple of days. All cows calved themselves tho with both bulls. Sent last of fr bulls, bar the few getting tested, off with haulier there, he had a lorry of fr bulls this morning.
Lad that buys a few culls off me rang sat as well said a few he killed came back active for fluke. These were mainly carry overs so weren't dry till I sold them so missed the bit of dosing. Thought things were going better as anything I sent straight from here the last 2 years were nil but haven't sent any off since jan myself. He was happy with them himself was just giving the heads up which was sound in fairness

Milked out

keep going wrote: »

we had a cow abort 2 weeks ago and 2 over the week end so getting a little nervous.dropping the last one into the lab .one of the ones over the weekend was dried off so wondering when her milk can go into the tank,she has a month of withdrawal to go

Maybe test her every week to be safe? Depending on tube could be a week or two early but the likes of cepravin you'd nearly be going the full period. Did she spring up enough to milk on do u reckon or would you be as well off leaving her soak away up? Hopefully nothing major. Weather being relatively warm is an added stress inside, had a cow with pneumonia here during the week

Timmaay

20 month old heifer calved down here yday to a fr heifer. Little sh1t of a bullock who obv wasn't squeezed right did the damage. All OK thankfully, bar the heifer cow is tiny ha, 1/4 JE so that doesn't help, 1st 1/4 je here also, so will be interesting to see how she performs against other heifers with no JE.

Dawggone

Scanned 45 cows this morning. Three cows that had been scanned in calf now empty.
I know the reason (I think), they had been grazing lucerne and milk urea went to 47...
When the milk urea went that high we put them back on grass, but obviously too late.

Milked out

Dawggone wrote: »

Scanned 45 cows this morning. Three cows that had been scanned in calf now empty.
I know the reason (I think), they had been grazing lucerne and milk urea went to 47...
When the milk urea went that high we put them back on grass, but obviously too late.

How often/ fast after collection do u get your results dawg. Normally a day after collection here sometimes there can be a lull tho. On 3 day collection and no results for 5 days now two collections in that period

Dawggone

Milked out wrote: »

How often/ fast after collection do u get your results dawg. Normally a day after collection here sometimes there can be a lull tho. On 3 day collection and no results for 5 days now two collections in that period

Results can be got online the next day. In fairness I live by the milk urea test. It's an excellent indicator of protein levels. When grazing it can fluctuate depending on clover in the sward etc.
Annoyed with myself for letting the urea go through the roof but I was in hospital at the time. We should have only grazed the lucerne for a couple of hours and then changed them, but that's more work and I'm trying to keep things simple...

Signpost

What part of the country are you growing the lucerne in? Only ever came across it in Oz as I thought our climate would be too wet for it? Do you (or more so your cows...) suffer any bloat etc from it or do you drench for that?

kowtow

Signpost wrote:

What part of the country are you growing the lucerne in? Only ever came across it in Oz as I thought our climate would be too wet for it? Do you (or more so your cows...) suffer any bloat etc from it or do you drench for that?

Dawg is in France, and I wish we could grow it here!

Dawggone

Signpost wrote: »

What part of the country are you growing the lucerne in? Only ever came across it in Oz as I thought our climate would be too wet for it? Do you (or more so your cows...) suffer any bloat etc from it or do you drench for that?

Luckily no bloat. I think that it's a matter of slowly getting them up to speed.
Weather plays a part in it too. Cold wet weather would not help.