offered a job in public service, should i take?

djsim101

Hi lads sorry for the vague subject. I got a phone call on Tuesday offering my an job which i am delighted for as it was a tuff process.

However here is my dilemma. There is a big difference in salaries. I am on the industrial average now but there is 8K of a difference in the PS position. Unfortunately they wont take my experience into play as it was not for a different public sector body which i think its unfair.

I feel at my career now i dont think i can go back to the very start again as it would take a quite a no of years to get back to where i am now if i took the job. On the other hand, with the PS job, mormore holidays, pension, job security etc?

Any ideas, opinions? Didnt sleep last nite as i keep playing it over and over in my head.

Thanks

kippy

djsim101 wrote: »

Hi lads sorry for the vague subject. I got a phone call on Tuesday offering my an job which i am delighted for as it was a tuff process.

However here is my dilemma. There is a big difference in salaries. I am on the industrial average now but there is 8K of a difference in the PS position. Unfortunately they wont take my experience into play as it was not for a different public sector body which i think its unfair.

I feel at my career now i dont think i can go back to the very start again as it would take a quite a no of years to get back to where i am now if i took the job. On the other hand, with the PS job, mormore holidays, pension, job security etc?

Any ideas, opinions? Didnt sleep last nite as i keep playing it over and over in my head.

Thanks

Is that 8k a difference in net or gross pay? The difference in net pay will be a lot more than the difference in gross pay generally once you take the various mandatory pension contributions into account.
How secure is your current job? What grade is new job@

Jotunheim

The salary for the public sector job would have been known to you before you applied, so why bother even going through the competition only to have a problem with it now?

GalwayGrrrrrl

I think job security and a pension is worth taking a pay cut for. You might not be much worse off each month when tax etc is taken into account anyway.

djsim101

Thanks lads for some of your comments. Its gross so the 8k is before tax is the difference

Its a tuff one to call, no job in the private sector is secure but its tuff working years and gaining experience and to have tto start off again :-)

Sorry kibby, its grade 4

otoolepw

Yup take the pensionable public sector role. My experience in many private sector jobs over 25 years, some go bust, scale back, get sold/taken over, asset stripped (customers), redundancies, contract work, etc. Only in stable employer for the first time this past 5 years, bitty pensions (multiple schemes) amounting to SWA before that. If I had your choice with what I know now, it would be a no brainer.

Addle

The pension argument - you know you pay well for your ps pension?
You could stay in your current job, pay less privately towards the same pension, and still have higher net pay.

Job security-have you any reason to think your current job isn't secure?

Would you be interested in further study? Taking s career break down the line?
If the answer to the last 2 questions is yes, then the public service is a good place to work.

If you're a woman who has/wants children, the ps offers very family friendly job sharing opportunities.

There is very low moral in most offices now. The same people working together for years now for less pay and with little support; and completely fed up with each other.

Depending on the office your working in, the job can be extremely stressful.
How would you feel like taking a suicide awareness course because you're a frontline staff members in the local dole office, or having to appear in court because the dept of education has had to investigate an historic sexual abuse claim, or having a gun in your face because you work for compliance in revenue and are calling to debtors...

It's not all it's supposedly cracked up to be.

djsim101

Thanks lads for all your help, its helping a lot. Job is working in an IT dept.

Current employer doing okay but some rumors going around that not doing as well either, but i am used to these working in the private sector.

With it always looking to upskill but no chance oof me having a baby or career break.

Uriel.

The net pay difference will be even greater because in the ps you have to pay pension contributions.

No one can really advise you, because it depends on your own circumstances. Can you afford such a pay cut for example?

I'd be looking at career development opportunities as well... There's generally good opportunity for promotion etc in the public service, how does that compare to your current job? I guess if you go to the ps, keep your head down and work hard you can progress up the ladder to higher paid positions

Lu Tze

Jotunheim wrote: »

The salary for the public sector job would have been known to you before you applied, so why bother even going through the competition only to have a problem with it now?

In fairness, its a bit of a joke that you could come top of a panel, due to your great experience, yet start on the bottom rung of the payscale as non-ps experience doesn't count!

Turn down the Job, and the next candidate on the panel (deemed inferior to you at recruitment stage) , from within the PS is offered it at higher pay! Its a serious block to any candidates trying to get into the PS for the first time in a more senior role particularly.

Uriel.

Lu Tze wrote: »

In fairness, its a bit of a joke that you could come top of a panel, due to your great experience, yet start on the bottom rung of the payscale as non-ps experience doesn't count!

Turn down the Job, and the next candidate on the panel (deemed inferior to you at recruitment stage) , from within the PS is offered it at higher pay! Its a serious block to any candidates trying to get into the PS for the first time in a more senior role particularly.

It's really not. The public service is hiring across the entire spectrum at the moment right up to what might be equivalent of director level (€90k+) positions. Candidates should then apply for the job at the "right level" for them.

The reason existing public service employees can start somewhere other than the bottom of the pay scale is that them getting the position is effectively a promotion, rather than starting a new job, it wouldn't make sense to get promoted and start on a lesser salary. The way the pay scales are set out I'd be surprised if someone was in a position to have to start mid pay scale in any event

average_runner

Where do u go for applying for IT jobs in the PS?

ECO_Mental

A Good job in bad times and a bad job in good times......

You have got to factor in no bonuses as well, also promotion to the next level could be years away and then the promotion position you are applying for will be advertised to the entire country even though you could be doing the job for years yourself. You will get your increments alright about 1-2% a year ! for a couple of years though.

In saying that I joined the PS in bad times 2009(bless myself every day) and halved my salary overnight taking the position.

Don't join the PS for the money or expect if you work you balls off that you will get that promotion you deserve you won't. Join the PS for job security, work life balance, yes the holidays, flexitime etc if you have young kids parental leave, work sharing, term time holidays all aren't a problem. No amount of money can buy job security and not having the possibility of losing your job(unless you murder someone)

The work can be interesting enough, you can always transfer to another dept if you get pissed off.

As I say I joined over 6 years ago and took a 50% pay cut and its only now that there are promotion positions open but they are open to the whole country so I don't hold any hope but joining was one of the best decisions I made.

Fieldsman

OP what do you mean by the word "tuff" is it something to do with hard rock.

djsim101

Thats my only bug bearer. During the interview i thought i could bring it up but with 3 interviewes that keep throwing questions i forgot at the end '-)

I could take a pay cut and still ( just about) by okay with mortgage etc, but we were looking to move, promised daughter new piano, things like that would be put to the backburner.

Its just all the night courses i went on and paid for myself to get where i am now doesnt be counted for.

I think i will turn down the job and let someone else have a chance.

Btw tuff meant a difficult process and was delighted with the offer.

The Bishop Basher

It's not just about current pay etc. though.

You also need to think about future career opportunities.

Public Service roles are not known for being dynamic, challenging, rewarding etc.

Especially in the IT arena where you need to stay on top of latest technologies and trends.

I could never work in the public sector for this reason. I deal with them all the time and there's just no comparison in terms of challenges which provide opportunities to develop yourself professionally.

One example would be downing tools at 5pm on a Friday with a SAN down. Unheard of in a private sector company but the norm for public. That's not an environment where you will grow and thrive.

average_runner

average_runner wrote: »

Where do u go for applying for IT jobs in the PS?

Temporary contract company (in Cork/Dublin anyway), get paid €25k a year (less than the permanent staff supporting you), rolling contract, no potential for permanent position and no benefits.

ECO_Mental

djsim101 wrote: »

Thanks lads for all your help, its helping a lot. Job is working in an IT dept.

Current employer doing okay but some rumors going around that not doing as well either, but i am used to these working in the private sector.

With it always looking to upskill but no chance oof me having a baby or career break.

Thinking of having kids! call them NOW and say when do you want me to start. That's a no brainer decision

Lu Tze

Uriel. wrote: »

It's really not. The public service is hiring across the entire spectrum at the moment right up to what might be equivalent of director level (€90k+) positions. Candidates should then apply for the job at the "right level" for them.

The reason existing public service employees can start somewhere other than the bottom of the pay scale is that them getting the position is effectively a promotion, rather than starting a new job, it wouldn't make sense to get promoted and start on a lesser salary. The way the pay scales are set out I'd be surprised if someone was in a position to have to start mid pay scale in any event

I don't particularly agree with this reasoning, where it can lead offering lower salaries to candidates deemed to be of higher equality and missing out on recruiting them and filling the role eventually with lower quality candidates at a higher cost.

djsim101

djsim101 wrote: »

Btw tuff meant a difficult process and was delighted with the offer.

He is (badly) pointing out that the word should be "tough"?

ECO_Mental

Swanner wrote: »

It's not just about current pay etc. though.

You also need to think about future career opportunities.

Public Service roles are not known for being dynamic, challenging, rewarding etc.

Especially in the IT arena where you need to stay on top of latest technologies and trends.

I could never work in the public sector for this reason. I deal with them all the time and there's just no comparison in terms of challenges which provide opportunities to develop yourself professionally.

One example would be downing tools at 5pm on a Friday with a SAN down. Unheard of in a private sector company but the norm for public. That's not an environment where you will grow and thrive.

Say that to the lads unblocking drains at three in the morning on a stormy January night with trucks flying past you......

Swanner

Swanner wrote: »

It's not just about current pay etc. though.

You also need to think about future career opportunities.

Public Service roles are not known for being dynamic, challenging, rewarding etc.

Especially in the IT arena where you need to stay on top of latest technologies and trends.

I could never work in the public sector for this reason. I deal with them all the time and there's just no comparison in terms of challenges which provide opportunities to develop yourself professionally.

One example would be downing tools at 5pm on a Friday with a SAN down. Unheard of in a private sector company but the norm for public. That's not an environment where you will grow and thrive.

And yet in the few months that I worked in conjunction with them I saw them working non stop over the weekend to fix server issues, on several occasions, and also often working late into the night.

JaCrispy

djsim101 wrote: »

I think i will turn down the job and let someone else have a chance.

Don't do that. Play hard ball a bit anyway - tell them that you'll accept the offer only if they match your current salary. You're top of their panel for a reason.

You've nothing to lose.

JaCrispy

JaCrispy wrote: »

Don't do that. Play hard ball a bit anyway - tell them that you'll accept the offer only if they match your current salary. You're top of their panel for a reason.

You've nothing to lose.

Exactly, if you are willing to not take it then what can you lose by making a few demands first?

Tazz T

Don't turn it down without negotiating. Say you can't afford to take the role on your current salary, would they consider upping the grade to the equivalent? When they refuse ask them to meet you halfway. If they still won't budge say sorry can't do. They're invested a lot in the recruitment process too. They might call you back.

They are restricted in their grades for "New Entrants" by things like Haddington Road but there has to be a way around it, if they are looking for more than graduates...

ECO_Mental

JaCrispy wrote: »

Don't do that. Play hard ball a bit anyway - tell them that you'll accept the offer only if they match your current salary. You're top of their panel for a reason.

You've nothing to lose.

Doesn't work that way in the PS. Rules are rules.... Another PS disadvantage you can't go to your boss and argue for a pay rise just because you are doing a brilliant job

doncarlos

Swanner wrote: »

It's not just about current pay etc. though.

You also need to think about future career opportunities.

Public Service roles are not known for being dynamic, challenging, rewarding etc.

Especially in the IT arena where you need to stay on top of latest technologies and trends.

I could never work in the public sector for this reason. I deal with them all the time and there's just no comparison in terms of challenges which provide opportunities to develop yourself professionally.

One example would be downing tools at 5pm on a Friday with a SAN down. Unheard of in a private sector company but the norm for public. That's not an environment where you will grow and thrive.

What a load of nonsense.

Bassfish

JaCrispy wrote: »

Don't do that. Play hard ball a bit anyway - tell them that you'll accept the offer only if they match your current salary. You're top of their panel for a reason.

You've nothing to lose.

You can't do that, salaries for all public sector jobs are set nationally and as a new entrant, you start on the first point of the the scale. Wouldn't matter if he was Bill Gates, the salary scale is non negotiable.

ECO_Mental

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Doesn't work that way in the PS. Rules are rules.... Another PS disadvantage you can't go to your boss and argue for a pay rise just because you are doing a brilliant job

Rules are rules.... until they are not.
They may be taking the OP on as IT grade "X" but based on experience they could take on at grade "Y".

There are ways around everything and, while they do have their hands tied, there is nothing to lose by making some noise (prior to not even accepting the role)

Uriel.

They won't negotiate. It's not how it works. You're on a panel op, if you don't want the job the next person, or the one after that etc. Will take it.

djsim101

Thanks all, i dont like doing that , but i might go back and tell them due to salary difference i am unable to take the job.

Propably regret this later down the line but that is life, making silly mistskes and learning from them :-)

doncarlos

doncarlos wrote: »

What a load of nonsense.

In part. In the IT sector there, of the PS, there can be very little opportunity to move around as people stay in roles for decades. They are heavily scaling back their investment in a lot of the PS (has OP said which part of PS as it is frikken huge).

Vast sections of the PS are, at the moment, unofficially moving their ICT depts over to private contractors under the guise of temporary replacements of permanent roles. I have worked with people in such temporary roles for over 5 years.

Addle

ECO_Mental wrote:

Say that to the lads unblocking drains at three in the morning on a stormy January night with trucks flying past you......

Have they applied for any of the recent open competitions?

ECO_Mental

Addle wrote: »

Have they applied for any of the recent open competitions?

Heh!... Maybe they did

JaCrispy

Bassfish wrote: »

You can't do that, salaries for all public sector jobs are set nationally and as a new entrant, you start on the first point of the the scale. Wouldn't matter if he was Bill Gates, the salary scale is non negotiable.

That is not true. I started on point 3 of my scale and another person in my office started on point 10 - neither of us were in public sector jobs previously. Early 2000s but I don't think the rules have changed.

I didn't negotiate but the person who went onto point 10 dug their heels in and got what they wanted.

kippy

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet in the few months that I worked in conjunction with them I saw them working non stop over the weekend to fix server issues, on several occasions, and also often working late into the night.

Same here, althought I am sure there are staff with the attitude that the poster points out, in general I've seen the same standards adhered to as anywhere else.

kippy

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Doesn't work that way in the PS. Rules are rules.... Another PS disadvantage you can't go to your boss and argue for a pay rise just because you are doing a brilliant job

That's one major downside that the OP needs to take into consideration as well.

The won't offer you a higher starting salary than you've already been offered. Hardball or not.

ECO_Mental

JaCrispy wrote: »

That is not true. I started on point 3 of my scale and another person in my office started on point 10 - neither of us were in public sector jobs previously. Early 2000s but I don't think the rules have changed.

I didn't negotiate but the person who went onto point 10 dug their heels in and got what they wanted.

Way different times they couldn't get anybody to join the PS in the early 2000's in the middle of the boom. They were recruiting in South Africa for engineers as far as I know. I did have to dely joining for a month to enable me to have another years experience in the private sector then I went up one point on the scale. But that was one point.

I think with haddinton road and all the new rules that all that is gone All new entrants start at that bottom

The Bishop Basher

doncarlos wrote: »

What a load of nonsense.

I can only offer my personal opinion based on my own experience.

I've worked with many incredibly talented and dedicated people from the PS over the years but their true ability and entrepreneurial spirit always seems to be stifled by poor management and inflexible and archaic work practices.

I've often had discussions with them about it and the reason they stay is invariably job security.

That's fine if job security is your main priority.

Different strokes and all that.....

BabySlam

Take the job. Your experience in the public sector will then count FOR you when you go for a higher paid PS job. Work out the pay per hour if you have any doubts. Remember you may qualify for family supplement for the first year or two - then you will have a steady incremental pay increase every year which is to reflect your PS years of experience.

In addition, you will have job security. This means you may earn less per week than a private sector worker but you will never be laid off/redundant etc.

I urge you to take it and try it. At worst you can re-apply for private sector but you will be deciding from experience and not from often uninformed commentary. I myself have worked in both sectors.

ECO_Mental

djsim101 wrote: »

Thanks all, i dont like doing that , but i might go back and tell them due to salary difference i am unable to take the job.

Propably regret this later down the line but that is life, making silly mistskes and learning from them :-)

This of the most last post as I have to go to work, but this is not going to be a silly mistake. Perm jobs in the PS rarely come up now and to even be offered one rarer again. If you can't afford it then you can't, but if you are planning to have kids or have them then you seriously have to consider the job.

Being able to drop your kids to school with flexitime work etc etc you cannot buy that and the job security with the peace of mind. Being able to take a day off without a problem if your child is sick again you can't buy that flexibly.

Its about work life balance and in the PS it couldn't be better.

Good luck

dbop2003

Take it!!!

Job security, pension, stability, maternity (if female) and sick leave as well as parental leave... Pros outweigh the cons. Ask the HR department if there is any way to increase the placing on salary scale. Provide them with evidence of courses, your current job descriptions, as well as something from your current employer about your current role. This might help them take your current experience into consideration. You also need to think about realistically how much of a pay cut you are willing to take. If you are seriously thinking of working in the PS then you will need to take a pay cut of some description.

doncarlos

Swanner wrote: »

I can only offer my personal opinion based on my own experience.

I've worked with many incredibly talented and dedicated people from the PS over the years but their true ability and entrepreneurial spirit always seems to be stifled by poor management and inflexible and archaic work practices.

I've often had discussions with them about it and the reason they stay is invariably job security.

That's fine if job security is your main priority.

Different strokes and all that.....

But you really believe that IT staff can skip out the door at 5pm if systems are down? This doesn't happen anywhere private or public sector.

kippy

doncarlos wrote: »

But you really believe that IT staff can skip out the door at 5pm if systems are down? This doesn't happen anywhere private or public sector.

TBF to the poster I have seen a VERY small number of staff with this attitude. And TBF I've seen it in both sectors. There's usually someone else there to take on the issue.

johnb25

OP,

I would take the job.
As others have pointed out, it offers better work-life balance. Private sector is good while you are making progress in your career, but if things level out, balance may become more important.
Also, if it turns out that the PS job is not overly-demanding, and the hours are stable, you may be able to supplement your income with some private work. This would give you added interest, additional income for hard work etc.
Ultimately you work to live...

The Bishop Basher

doncarlos wrote: »

But you really believe that IT staff can skip out the door at 5pm if systems are down? This doesn't happen anywhere private or public sector.

I've witnessed it. Critical systems down. On standby ready to work through the weekend to get them back online only to be told the staff are finishing up and will reconvene on Monday.

Hard to believe I know and maybe i've just been incredibly unlucky with the Depts i've interacted with but it has happened a couple of times.

_Kaiser_

Swanner wrote: »

I've witnessed it. Critical systems down. On standby ready to work through the weekend to get them back online only to be told the staff are finishing up and will reconvene on Monday.

Hard to believe I know and maybe i've just been incredibly unlucky with the Depts i've interacted with but it has happened a couple of times.

In my own experience (former PS worker for a while too), while what I was managing wasn't quite "bank critical" stuff, downtime or issues did have a significant impact on the organisation so whatever needed to be done got done regardless. I suppose my situation was bit different in that I was the IT Manager and came from a MNC background.

I was lucky in that I had pretty much complete control of my section so was able to implement a lot of new technologies and processes to improve things so it was both challenging and getting to play with the latest stuff.

I'd echo the comments above OP, I'd be inclined to take it IF it's a full time permanent role. The issue I had was that I was on a FTC as there was no permanent post for "IT Manager" as such and so when the cull started in 2009, I and many of the Admin staff were let go.

Were it not for that I might still be there.

testaccount123

doncarlos wrote: »

But you really believe that IT staff can skip out the door at 5pm if systems are down? This doesn't happen anywhere private or public sector.

Ive contracted into the PS on and off for the last few years and seen it happen also.

OP, bear in mind that its a very, very different work environment in the PS. Things happen with glacial slowness - everything from day to day work to career progression. People seem to spend YEARS in the same role and they hire consultants for everything the least bit challenging or which carries ANY risk. There is a culture of 'cover your own arse first', the staff seem to spend their time simply managing contractors and consultants who are paid multiples of what they are (in fact you'll often wonder why the PS IT staff are there at all - why not just use a managed service instead of having every meeting stuffed with the PS IT staff and all the different vendors they have hired to do the jobs they should be doing in the first place?). Finally, the staff are totally different from what you will find in any other IT organisation - the last project I worked on (a huge, multi million euro virtual infrastructure rollout) was managed on the PS side exclusively by middle-aged women from non-technical backgrounds, presumably who were moved into the roles due to the PS' bizarre promotion system. Dont expect to be rocking in to the office to discuss the latest in geekdom in other words.

It depends what you want really, if you want to progress in IT and be on the bleeding edge of tech i'd give it a wide berth. If you want a stress free handy number I'd be all over it.

griffin100

One thing you need to consider is where in the PS the job is. The PS is a huge sector with varying types of work place and working environment. I'm a PS worker in an environment that is pleasant to work in, offers career development and I work with a good bunch of people. I know friends who work in other areas of the PS which are like the stereotypical view of the PS with poor mangers, heavy union control, lifers with no ambition or real work ethic, etc.

Personally I would give it serious thought. The PS can be a great place to work, but in saying that there are areas I don't think I'd like to work in - the HSE and the civil service spring to mind.

Perhaps you spend 6-12 months there, earn less money, decide it's not for you but do some further training whilst your there at their expense and get back into the public sector at a time when jobs are increasing.

Yeboah

johnb25 wrote:

I would take the job. As others have pointed out, it offers better work-life balance. Private sector is good while you are making progress in your career, but if things level out, balance may become more important. Also, if it turns out that the PS job is not overly-demanding, and the hours are stable, you may be able to supplement your income with some private work. This would give you added interest, additional income for hard work etc. Ultimately you work to live...

this post x 1000 imo

I left a big private sector company to take a position in the civil service. Almost 10 years later I can safely say it was best decision I could have made. At the time people thought I was mad as country was "booming".

My advice would be go for it !!!