€12,000 Reward for driving someone elses car with no tax or NCT and resisting arrest.

Greenmachine

.arrest
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/very-abusive-mother-32-pepper-sprayed-by-garda-during-arrest-awarded-12k-31389894.html

No fatal weapon, used when someone was aggressively resisting arrest. The most she should get is an apology, if it was deemed excessive. Zero lasting damage, and the defamation of character claim is ridiculous.

TallGlass

Greenmachine wrote: »

.arrest
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/very-abusive-mother-32-pepper-sprayed-by-garda-during-arrest-awarded-12k-31389894.html

No fatal weapon, used when someone was aggressively resisting arrest. The most she should get is an apology, if it was deemed excessive. Zero lasting damage, and the defamation of character claim is ridiculous.

Dose the judge know what pepper spray is for? It's a last resort so nobody gets physically hurt if resisting arrest.“the use of pepper spray should only be used as a very last resort.”

Would he rather the Garda give her a belt of the batton?

dickwod1

Just the normal from the judges/courts these days.

whiskeyman

Why did they want to arrest her?
Details are a bit sketchy there.
the 2 guards should have been able to subdue her if required.
Just take the car keys off her and leave them there.
More details here
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/mother-claims-she-was-pepper-sprayed-by-garda%C3%AD-court-hears-1.2216781.

Seems a right result to be fair.
There was no need to use it.

Overheal

Don't see how you're surprised, you can run over a child on an irish road and walk away free.

jamesbere

TallGlass wrote: »

Dose the judge know what pepper spray is for? It's a last resort so nobody gets physically hurt if resisting arrest.“the use of pepper spray should only be used as a very last resort.”

Would he rather the Garda give her a belt of the batton?

Go old school, bring back the wooden spoon

Fr_Dougal

Hmmm...I wonder is she a full time mad bastard....

Little CuChulainn

This is typical of what is going on in AGS at the moment. Do everything exactly according to the law, policy and training and you are still in the wrong.

thebaz

Overheal wrote: »

Don't see how you're surprised, you can run over a child on an irish road and walk away free.

Judges are so out of touch with the reality of modern life - then again real modern life is not much in abundance on Ailesbury or Shrewsbury road and the like , where most of our reverend judiciary live

Riamfada

They dont specify that the itchy rash she was suffering from wasnt a pre-existing condition. By the looks of her Id say it was.

Guy:Incognito

whiskeyman wrote: »

Why did they want to arrest her?
Details are a bit sketchy there.
the 2 guards should have been able to subdue her if required.
Just take the car keys off her and leave them there.
More details here
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/mother-claims-she-was-pepper-sprayed-by-garda%C3%AD-court-hears-1.2216781.

Seems a right result to be fair.
There was no need to use it.

TBH, from that it seems like she was trying the old "this is a peaceful protest" while not doing as shes told.

They took the keys, exactly how long should they stand there while she makes her phone calls and gets he hole out of the car?

Clearly acting the bollocks

twowheelsonly

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

This is typical of what is going on in AGS at the moment. Do everything exactly according to the law, policy and training and you are still in the wrong.

This is why we need Judges to take note of the American Graham v. Connor case law.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2014/10/understanding-graham-v-connor.aspx

Long enough article but what it basically says is that incidents such as these should be taken from the point of view of 'real-time' and not from the cold light of day when it's easy to analyse and cast judgement., i.e. Was it a reasonable reaction from the cop at the time given the circumstances and the split second that he had to make a decision, would another cop have made the same decision or have been likely to.

In this case what the law is saying is that he was wrong but from the details given I wouldn't agree.
She seems to make a bit of a deal out of saying that he shouted 'spray' 3 times. IMO that's a warning and you should stop what you're doing which I think is a reasonable assumption.

Guy:Incognito

twowheelsonly wrote: »

She seems to make a bit of a deal out of saying that he shouted 'spray' 3 times. IMO that's a warning and you should stop what you're doing which I think is a reasonable assumption.

She went for the sympathy angle alright. Talking about panic attacks and being scare to be in the car with 2 male Gardai.

Would a man be entertained making the same play for sympathy?

dissed doc

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

She went for the sympathy angle alright. Talking about panic attacks and being scare to be in the car with 2 male Gardai.

Would a man be entertained making the same play for sympathy?

No a man would not, but the judges are directed by the politicians. Let us see a man driving a car without tax or insurance, resist arrest, be abusive to the Gardai and get free 12 grand!

Female privilege is what it is called.

AlekSmart

Should the DPP appeal this judgement ?

Little CuChulainn

AlekSmart wrote: »

Should the DPP appeal this judgement ?

Yes. The consequences will be quite widespread throughout the force. Pepper spray cannot be used without risk of a law suit even if you do it by the book.

AudreyHepburn

whiskeyman wrote: »

Why did they want to arrest her?
Details are a bit sketchy there.
the 2 guards should have been able to subdue her if required.
Just take the car keys off her and leave them there.
More details here
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/mother-claims-she-was-pepper-sprayed-by-garda%C3%AD-court-hears-1.2216781.

Seems a right result to be fair.
There was no need to use it.

It's not remotely sketchy tbh....the Gardai were absolutely entitled to seize the car, it was uninsured, the NCT was out and it was not hers in the first place.

Were they meant to just stand there when she became abusive and aggressive? Should they have walked away when she resisted aresst?

I really hate 'Compo Culture' - this case should never have gone to court.

Eugene Norman

How did they possibly defame her?

Gulliver

What episode of Fair City was this in? The writing is getting really unrealistic these days. Like that would ever happen in real life. Next you'll be telling me men are scared of Gardai too.

drunkmonkey

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Yes. The consequences will be quite widespread throughout the force. Pepper spray cannot be used without risk of a law suit even if you do it by the book.

In fairness if 2 male Gardaí can't arrest a woman without the use of pepper spray there's something wrong. There trained better than that. It was OTT.

Capt'n Midnight

How was she insured on a car that was new to her but didn't have an NCT or tax ?

NachoBusiness

Riamfada wrote: »

They dont specify that the itchy rash she was suffering from wasnt a pre-existing condition. By the looks of her Id say it was.

You know little about her. Certainly not enough to excuse such a needless sneer.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

In fairness if 2 male Gardaí can't arrest a woman without the use of pepper spray there's something wrong. There trained better than that. It was OTT.

Spot on. A sober woman in broad daylight too. They're pepper spray happy these days.

Seen a chap in Temple Bar get pepper sprayed by two ban Gardai a few weeks back and there wasn't a bit of need for it either.

joe swanson

So it seems u can drive round, shout , roar and attempt to assault a Garda and walk away with 12k.

Those guards should have a lengthy meeting with a solicitor and consider their own options within the law.

Nonoperational

Drive around in an untaxed car with non NCT. Sur it's grand, I bought it from my brother. I wonder how long it was untaxed and had no NCT before that.

An absolutely disgusting judgement, a perfectly legitimate reason to stop someone and question them, person gets hysterical and you can do absolutely nothing about it. Pepper spray more people who dodge tax and NCT in my book. Sickening the way society has gone these days.

drunkmonkey

joe swanson wrote: »

Those guards should have a lengthy meeting with a solicitor and consider their own options within the law.

Or back to Templemore for 2 weeks to complete their how to handle women diploma.

AudreyHepburn

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Or back to Templemore for 2 weeks to complete their how to handle women diploma.

Rubbish tbh.

Gender should never be the defining factor in how the Gardai treat criminals.

This woman broke the law, resisted arrest and became violent and abusive....why should she be handled with kid gloves?

BattleCorp

Breaking the law. Resisting arrest. Trying to assault two Gardai.

I'll say that again. Trying to assault two Gardai.

She's lucky that she didn't get a belt of the baton.

Crazy decision.

hairycakes

Ridiculous judgement imo. She broke the law, resisted arrest and was handed money for it. It makes me sick. If the pepper spray wasn't used and the two males guards physically restrained her, that would be wrong too for some. She would probably get a nice lump sum for that too. All that is saying to criminals is act up and force guards to use the full extent of their arsenal (which isn't much) and they'll get a nice little compo settlement. The message that should be portrayed is do not resist arrest because you will be dealt with harsher.

Starokan

Yet another mind boggling decision by our courts, the judge states that he had no doubt she had been abusive and had tried to hit the gardai yet he awards her 12k. Typifies what is wrong with our system, the gardai follow procedure and do everything right yet get slammed for it.

Joke of a verdict

Little CuChulainn

drunkmonkey wrote: »

In fairness if 2 male Gardaí can't arrest a woman without the use of pepper spray there's something wrong. There trained better than that. It was OTT.

The idea of pepper spray is to reduce the need for physical force and, in turn, the risk of injury. Yes two male Gardaí could have used physical force to restrain her but they would have had to be rough with her. Pepper spray almost completely eliminates resistance and does not cause injury allowing for an easier and safer arrest. It is not a last resort, the baton is.

Sleepy

No wonder young fellas have no fear of the Gardaí any more.

Is the judge so thick that he can't recognise what every little scrote in the country who hears about this case will cop to? If you're being arrested, it's worth 12k if you resist arrest and the Garda uses pepper spray on you. Now, I've never been pepper sprayed and I can't imagine it's pleasant but I think I'd be happy enough to suffer the couple of hours of discomfort for a tax free sum that's the equivalent of earning an extra 25k a year.

This ruling incentivises people to resist arrest.

seamus

drunkmonkey wrote: »

In fairness if 2 male Gardaí can't arrest a woman without the use of pepper spray there's something wrong. There trained better than that. It was OTT.

You don't give women enough credit. Like any man, a woman losing the plot physically can be very difficult to restrain. And like this case shows, the courts are horrifically sexist, so any injury to a woman in the course of arrest and the Gardai will be in big trouble.

Trying to restrain someone who is physically resisting carries a pretty high chance of injuring them. Pepper spray is pretty effective at disabling sober people without causing any physical injury or long term effects. A broken arm or nose, or rotator cuff injury in the course of arrest, by contrast is a much longer-lasting trauma.

As said, would the judge have preferred that they took out their batons and smacked her around the arms and legs? Or threw her onto the ground and kneeled on her back?

Riskymove

AlekSmart wrote: »

Should the DPP appeal this judgement ?

I don't think the DPP has a role here as it is a civil case not a criminal one

I think the State should certainly appeal the judgment as the idea that a non-lethal tool is to be deemed a "last resort" makes it pretty pointless as a tool. When can they use it? when threatened with guns?

lanos

i would suggest in future that the Guards spend more time harassing known criminals and
junkies plaguing the capital streets instead of assaulting normal citizens with no criminal past.
i want to refer to the case of the tourist that was attacked with a bottle in dublin city centre.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tourist-attacked-with-bottle-just-after-arriving-in-country-31391460.html

but i suspect the Guards would say Fcuk that, i'm not tangling with that mad ba*tard
drive on, lets nick a few motorists

tradhead

I don't get this- was she not even done for having no tax and NCT on the car?? If not, sure why would anyone surrender their car if stopped and everything wasn't in order?

Kick up a big fuss, abuse the guards as much as you want until you get pepper sprayed or otherwise "assaulted", and then get a nice big payoff with absolutely no consequences (apart from a "panic attack" and a rash). :rolleyes:

CH3OH

Could this be the same judge that was convicted of failing to provide a sample to a Garda in 2012?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/judge-fined-for-failing-to-give-sample-26880639.html

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056713190

If it is the same judge, should he even have been on the bench for this case?

Little CuChulainn

lanos wrote: »

i would suggest in future that the Guards spend more time harassing known criminals and
junkies plaguing the capital streets instead of assaulting normal citizens with no criminal past.
i want to refer to the case of the tourist that was attacked with a bottle in dublin city centre.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tourist-attacked-with-bottle-just-after-arriving-in-country-31391460.html

but i suspect the Guards would say Fcuk that, i'm not tangling with that mad ba*tard
drive on, lets nick a few motorists

Last week there were three Gardaí from Ronanstown station hospitalised after being attacked in a house. I challenge you to find a single reference to it in the news.

Sleepy

What if she'd run over an innocent child due to an unsafe car and her being uninsured meant there was no insurance company to cover that child's medical bills?

Would she be a criminal then Ianos? Or is she allowed to ignore the laws the rest of us have to follow and to assault those we as a society have hired to enforce those laws (for the protection of that hypothetical child, or indeed ourselves) because she happens to have given birth at some point in the past?

Streetwalker

Way over the top from the Gardaí and then they wonder why they have no respect in a lot of our communities.

Neyite

Her gender, and the gender of the Gardai should never come into it. If she was abusive and attempted to physically assault a Garda who is just doing the job that we as tax payers trust them to do then she deserved to get charged for that.

It's pretty clear that they were between a rock and a hard place. It sounds like if they had used physical restraint on her, that she would have sued them anyway for them putting their male hands on her female body, judging by the inference where she talks about the garda put her seat belt on for her.

If anything, she should be made to pay €12,000 into the court poor box or Garda benevolent fund for failing to obey the law on:

• Driving without a tax disc
• Driving without an NCT
• Failing to obey Garda instruction
• Verbally abusing Gardai
• Failing to put on a seat belt when instructed
• Attempting to assault a member of An Garda Siochana
• Resisting arrest

How the fcuk can we expect Gardai to do their jobs when people get rewarded for failing to obey basic Garda instruction?

Mod

I've just updated the title, as there is no reference to her not having insurance anywhere in the article.

Starokan

Streetwalker wrote: »

Way over the top from the Gardaí and then they wonder why they have no respect in a lot of our communities.

I doubt that cases like this are the reasons the gardai do not have respect in a lot of our communities.

I suspect the lack of respect is due to the fact that the members of said communities have absolutely no regard for the law and are inclined to rebel against the gardai tasked with administering it.

Why have they no regard for the law?, because more often than not they are breaking it.

Gardai are not infallible, they make mistakes, this for me however does not appear to be one of them

seamus

Streetwalker wrote: »

Way over the top from the Gardaí and then they wonder why they have no respect in a lot of our communities.

Enlighten us then with what the Gardai should have done in this scenario based on your detailed analysis and CCTV footage.

BattleCorp

Streetwalker wrote: »

Way over the top from the Gardaí and then they wonder why they have no respect in a lot of our communities.

I have seen Gardai go overboard in the past but this doesn't seem like one of those occasions.

What were they supposed to do, just let her assault them and resist arrest?

I think they were right to use pepper spray if she was attempting to assault them.

Tenzor07

If a person with no Insurance driving a car with no NCT is allowed drive on our roads and causes a serious accident then the Gards would come in for some more harsh criticism!
After all, this is part of the job they are paid to do!

Sleepy

Deleted User wrote: »

Mod

I've just updated the title, as there is no reference to her not having insurance anywhere in the article.

If she had insurance the lack of a valid NCT would invalidate the policy so, whether she'd paid for it or not, she was uninsured.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Sleepy wrote: »

Is the judge so thick that he can't recognise what every little scrote in the country who hears about this case will cop to?.

Won't work for them though

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

If she had insurance the lack of a valid NCT would invalidate the policy so, whether she'd paid for it or not, she was uninsured.

Actually, that's inaccurate. Her policy would have reverted to third party cover only, and her insurance company could have chased her for any costs if they saw fit.

The third party would still have been entitled to claim from her insurance.

Do not question mod notes on thread again, it's against the charter. PM a mod for any queries.

NachoBusiness

Sleepy wrote: »

If she had insurance the lack of a valid NCT would invalidate the policy so, whether she'd paid for it or not, she was uninsured.

Nonsense.

Dionysius2

dissed doc wrote: »

No a man would not, but the judges are directed by the politicians. Let us see a man driving a car without tax or insurance, resist arrest, be abusive to the Gardai and get free 12 grand!

Female privilege is what it is called.

A seasoned veteran of the law & order brigade told me recently that 'tarts in cars' are impossible to deal with to a conclusion intended by the law. Everything is someone else's problem, defects and certification deficiencies will be brushed aside as caused by another and ownership of the car is always an issue.
Lots of the tricks and strategies are quite clever. The veteran blue told be that many of the motorised element of a certain stream in society bring either a car load of unruly kids or vicious dogs on their road trips because the police are reluctant to engage in such obviously messy situations.

lanos

Sleepy wrote: »

What if she'd run over an innocent child due to an unsafe car and her being uninsured meant there was no insurance company to cover that child's medical bills?

obviously unsafe or just without a current NCT cert ?
there is a difference

i think we all know that the NCT system is corrupt.
there are cars on the road that would have failed if a regular motorist puts them through but a dealer can get them passed no problem.

obviously i dont include faulty brakes and bald tyres or other major defects
but defects such as emissions, rust etc would be overlooked with a nod and a wink when a dealer in-the-know brings a car for testing.

and when the NCT was first introduced, you could not tax a vehicle without a valid NCT cert but that was changed when motor tax revenue dropped off.
Therefore
Tax revenue = important
Car roadworthiness = not really important

and it would even be terrible if she had run over a Guilty child :P