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Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

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    #2522
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    Legal abortion regimes always involve dismemberment, not every procedure every regime. But why does matter if its just a ball of cells?

    So we've gone from "abortion always involves dismemberment" to "Legal abortion regimes always involve dismemberment"?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2523
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Delirium wrote: »
    So we've gone from "abortion always involves dismemberment" to "Legal abortion regimes always involve dismemberment"?

    Irrelevant to the matter at hand.


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    #2524
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    Irrelevant to the matter at hand.

    actually it's the matter you introduced to the discussion so it's quite relevant tbh.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2525
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Delirium wrote: »
    actually it's the matter you introduced to the discussion so it's quite relevant tbh.

    So you acknowledge there is dismemberment?


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    #2526
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Revealed: Enda Kenny forced into U-turn on abortion by key allies
    Taoiseach Enda Kenny was "bounced" into his shock move to pave the way for an abortion referendum by two of his most loyal ministers, the Irish Independent has learned.

    Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald and Transport Minister Paschal Donohoe both made pleas for the party to outline a clear policy on abortion.

    Their stance forced Mr Kenny to address the divisive issue of the Eighth Amendment, which gives equal status to the rights of the mother and the unborn.

    Fine Gael was left stunned following Mr Kenny's pledge to refer the issue of abortion to a 'Citizens Convention' and to allow his TDs and senators to vote with their conscience on any move to repeal the Eighth.

    While Mr Kenny's decision will limit the potential for abortion to be a major issue in the upcoming election, his move also paves the way for the first abortion referendum since 2002.

    Even though it was already raised at the Constitutional Convention. Just trying to keep "kicking the can down the road" it seems.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2527
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Delirium wrote: »
    Revealed: Enda Kenny forced into U-turn on abortion by key allies



    Even though it was already raised at the Constitutional Convention. Just trying to keep "kicking the can down the road" it seems.

    What a joke. FG should commit to a pro life position. The huge numbers of pro life people are being ignored politically.


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    #2528
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    So you acknowledge there is dismemberment?

    not in the same sense as yourself, i.e. all abortions involve dismemberment.

    But sure, I acknowledge it, as is clear from my first response to you explaining the rate of abortion not involving dismemberment.

    So do you now agree that it's the minority of abortions that involve dismemberment?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2529
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    What a joke. FG should commit to a pro life position. The huge numbers of pro life people are being ignored politically.

    And ignore the majority that support a less restrictive abortion policy in Ireland?

    80% support wider access to abortion

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2530
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Delirium wrote: »
    not in the same sense as yourself, i.e. all abortions involve dismemberment.

    But sure, I acknowledge it, as is clear from my first response to you explaining the rate of abortion not involving dismemberment.

    So do you now agree that it's the minority of abortions that involve dismemberment?
    More 'facts' pulled from thin air. Data please on that its a minority? In reality the % varies in every justification. In the US its far more common than say the UK.


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    #2531
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Delirium wrote: »
    And ignore the majority that support a less restrictive abortion policy in Ireland?

    80% support wider access to abortion

    Most people don't want abortion on demand and that is exactly what Amnesty is pushing.


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    #2532
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    More 'facts' pulled from thin air. Data please on that its a minority? In reality the % varies in every justification. In the US its far more common than say the UK.

    No problem, can do.
    92% of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation, 80% were at under 10 weeks compared to 79% in 2013 and 60% in 2004

    Source
    Surgical dilation and evacuation (from 15 weeks of pregnancy)

    Surgical dilation and evacuation (D&E) is a procedure carried out under general anaesthetic. Your cervix will be gently stretched and dilated and forceps and a suction tube will be used to remove the foetus and tissue within the womb.


    Surgical D&E usually takes 10-20 minutes to perform and, if you are healthy and there are no complications, you may be able to return home the same day. The clinic or hospital will advise if you need to stay in hospital overnight. As with vacuum aspiration, you may experience some bleeding for up to 21 days.


    Source


    So 100-92 (<13 weeks) = 8.


    Do you dispute that 8% is a minority?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2533
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    Most people don't want abortion on demand and that is exactly what Amnesty is pushing.

    That doesn't change the fact that the majority of people polled see the law as too restrictive regarding abortion, hence the change from Kenny regarding a possible referendum.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2534
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    robp wrote: »
    Most people don't want abortion on demand and that is exactly what Amnesty is pushing.

    I'm assuming you have data to back that up, or is that "fact" pulled from thin air?


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    #2535
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Delirium wrote: »
    No problem, can do.



    Source




    Source


    So 100-92 (<13 weeks) = 8.


    Do you dispute that 8% is a minority?

    Well you see the UK isn't the world or representative of the world. Surgical abortions are still hugely dominant in the US and many other regions. Even in the UK surgical abortions constituted about 46% of cases in 2013. See Abortion statistics, england and wales: 2013 - Gov.uk.


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    #2536
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    robp wrote: »
    Well you see the UK isn't the world or representative of the world. Surgical abortions are still hugely dominant in the US and many other regions. Even in the UK surgical abortions constituted about 46% of cases in 2013. See Abortion statistics, england and wales: 2013 - Gov.uk.

    You seem to be under the impression that surgical abortion is by necessity performed later than 13 weeks. It is not.


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    #2537
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    Well you see the UK isn't the world or representative of the world. Surgical abortions are still hugely dominant in the US and many other regions. Even in the UK surgical abortions constituted about 46% of cases in 2013. See Abortion statistics, england and wales: 2013 - Gov.uk.

    we're talking dismemberment, which is D&E abortions, which according to the available data accounts for a max of 8% of abortions in the UK.

    As for the US;
    Women in their twenties accounted for the majority of abortions in 2012 and throughout the period of analysis. The majority of abortions in 2012 took place early in gestation: 91.4% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.2%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation. In 2012, 20.8% of all abortions were medical abortions. The percentage of abortions reported as early medical abortions increased 10% from 2011 to 2012.

    Source (CDC)

    Which is about the same as the UK. Can you provide any stats that show D&E is used at that stage, considering UK don't do so?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2538
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    robp wrote: »
    The method of abortion chosen depends on the preferences of the abortionist and how developed the baby is. The health status of the baby doesn't influence the choice. Its a ridiculous thing to argue over. You are making the assertion in the first place so you aught to provide evidence.

    The only evidence I have is the testimony of families who have had to travel to England to have abortions but that's enough for me. They had their labour induced and gave birth to fully intact babies. Now if you have evidence to the contrary please provide it.


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    #2539
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Kev W wrote: »
    I'm assuming you have data to back that up, or is that "fact" pulled from thin air?

    Funny isn't it that anti choicers are adamant the Irish public don't want abortion on demand but still reject calls for a referendum :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #2540
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Funny isn't it that anti choicers are adamant the Irish public don't want abortion on demand but still reject calls for a referendum :rolleyes:
    Do you think that if we had abortion on demand those who favoured it would be clamoring for a referendum to ban it?

    :rolleyes: indeed...


  • Options
    #2541
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Absolam wrote: »
    Do you think that if we had abortion on demand those who favoured it would be clamoring for a referendum to ban it?

    :rolleyes: indeed...

    If I was as confident as anti choicers seem to be I'd be more than happy to have a referendum.


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    #2542
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If I was as confident as anti choicers seem to be I'd be more than happy to have a referendum.
    How confident does that seem to be exactly? I've never met anyone yet who was prepared to risk what they have for the chance to gain nothing, so you'll appreciate that I find you quite interesting; if there are more like you out there I reckon there's money to be made...


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    #2543
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Absolam wrote: »
    How confident does that seem to be exactly? I've never met anyone yet who was prepared to risk what they have for the chance to gain nothing, so you'll appreciate that I find you quite interesting; if there are more like you out there I reckon there's money to be made...

    So you believe there's a "risk" that the result of a referendum would go to the pro-choice side?


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    #2544
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kev W wrote: »
    So you believe there's a "risk" that the result of a referendum would go to the pro-choice side?
    I'd agree that anyone who is pro-life would characterise it as a "risk".
    And of course there is a chance that any referendum can go either way... how could there not be?


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    #2545
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Kev W wrote: »
    I'm assuming you have data to back that up, or is that "fact" pulled from thin air?


    Amnesty International has made clear it that it supports abortion on demand.
    Amnesty International- Statement November 2015.
    International law is also says that under no circumstances should a woman be made a criminal for having an abortion.

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/11/abortion-is-not-a-crime-doctors-warn-governments/International law is silent on abortion but this statement does verify Amnesty have no interest in a middle ground.


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    #2546
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Funny isn't it that anti choicers are adamant the Irish public don't want abortion on demand but still reject calls for a referendum :rolleyes:

    :confused: Many pro life groups have been pleading for years for a plebiscite to better protect the unborn.


  • Options
    #2547
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    eviltwin wrote: »
    The only evidence I have is the testimony of families who have had to travel to England to have abortions but that's enough for me. They had their labour induced and gave birth to fully intact babies. Now if you have evidence to the contrary please provide it.

    A cursory reading of testimonies is a terrible way of surveying surgical techniques. Read the actual medical literature.


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    #2548
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    Amnesty International has made clear it that it supports abortion on demand.


    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/11/abortion-is-not-a-crime-doctors-warn-governments/International law is silent on abortion but this statement does verify Amnesty have no interest in a middle ground.

    So you think that women should be imprisoned for 14 years for having an abortion (given that is essentially what your link was arguing against)?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Options
    #2549
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    robp wrote: »
    Amnesty International has made clear it that it supports abortion on demand.


    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/11/abortion-is-not-a-crime-doctors-warn-governments/International law is silent on abortion but this statement does verify Amnesty have no interest in a middle ground.

    I was referring to your contention that most people don't want abortion legalised.


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    #2550
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    robp wrote: »
    :confused: Many pro life groups have been pleading for years for a plebiscite to better protect the unborn.

    What would such a plebiscite consider? Repealing the right to travel and information? Repealing the X case ruling?


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    #2551
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Delirium wrote: »
    So you think that women should be imprisoned for 14 years for having an abortion (given that is essentially what your link was arguing against)?
    That is not even in the Eight Amendment which Amnesty is arguing against. Its from the dodgy FG/Lab act from two years ago.
    Delirium wrote: »
    we're talking dismemberment, which is D&E abortions, which according to the available data accounts for a max of 8% of abortions in the UK.

    As for the US;

    Source (CDC)

    Which is about the same as the UK. Can you provide any stats that show D&E is used at that stage, considering UK don't do so?
    Non-surgical abortions are pill abortions. IE most of those that don't involve dismemberment. If you read the report I cited you would know that in 2013 such pill abortion were about 52%, not the 92% you indicate.


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