Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

Absolam

Personally I'm happy to jump in on that point if that's what PopePalpatine intended to actually say (though it's not how I read the OP);

No.
Enduring an unwanted pregnancy is undoubtedly terrible, even more terrible at such a young age, made unfathomably more terrible by being the result of a rape, and worse again by being the result of a rape by a family member; it is certainly something we should make great effort to prevent, and when we fail to prevent it, make great effort to ameliorate the effect it has had on the victim.

However, the taking of an innocent life is an even more terrible thing; inflicting a greater harm on the unborn child than that inflicted on the raped child as that harm is final and absolute, being not just the utter laying waste to a life that is such a rape, but the utter destruction of one. I personally could not justify doing such a great harm to one person in order to lessen the harm done to another.

Hopefully my answer is not so ambiguous as PopePalpatines OP

Delirium

Absolam wrote: »

Personally I'm happy to jump in on that point if that's what PopePalpatine intended to actually say (though it's not how I read the OP);

No.
Enduring an unwanted pregnancy is undoubtedly terrible, even more terrible at such a young age, made unfathomably more terrible by being the result of a rape, and worse again by being the result of a rape by a family member; it is certainly something we should make great effort to prevent, and when we fail to prevent it, make great effort to ameliorate the effect it has had on the victim.

However, the taking of an innocent life is an even more terrible thing; inflicting a greater harm on the unborn child than that inflicted on the raped child as that harm is final and absolute, being not just the utter laying waste to a life that is such a rape, but the utter destruction of one. I personally could not justify doing such a great harm to one person in order to lessen the harm done to another.

Hopefully my answer is not so ambiguous as PopePalpatines OP

You refer to the foetus/unborn as a person. Does this person exist from conception, implantation or some other stage?

Also in many cases young girls will die during the pregnancy due to complications caused by their young age/ physical development. They have a higher mortality rate to that of an adult woman.

Do you not think that the girl (and her family) should at least have the choice to proceed with the pregnancy (or not)? Given that there are increased risks to the girls life given her young age?

robdonn

Delirium wrote: »

Given that there are increased risks to the girls life given her young age?

Although of course the risks to the girl's life is a huge factor, and most people (including Absolam, but please correct me if I'm wrong) agree that a termination is reasonable if continuing the pregnancy will result in the death of the girl, I think what is often overlooked is the risks to the girl's health as well.

A young pregnancy has significant risks that are not always life threatening but can cause life-long health issues at higher rates than in adults, both for the mother and the baby. Babies born to a teenage mother are more likely to have a low birth weight, partly because they are more likely to be premature, which means more neonatal care is required, increased chance of respiratory distress syndrome, high blood pressure, polycythaemia (blood too thick) and hypoglycaemia which can carry on into adulthood and increases the chances of developing diabetes, asthma and gastrointestinal issues.

Teenage mothers also have issues with healthy weight gain during pregnancy due to their own body still developing which in turn causes higher rates of anaemia. Higher rates of Pregnancy Induced Hypertension lead to placental abruption and maternal renal failure. Many complications can arise that result in the need for a hysterectomy, destroying the chance for young girls to have children when they are older and ready to have them. And, one of the obvious ones, teenagers are far more likely to develop postpartum depression.

I think that long-term outcomes are often overlooked in these conversations, the old "life over quality of life" thing, but these are issues that really should contribute to the decision whether to continue with a pregnancy.

Absolam

Delirium wrote: »

You refer to the foetus/unborn as a person. Does this person exist from conception, implantation or some other stage?

I think that depends on your point of view; I certainly wouldn't try to say that a philosophical concept has a scientific basis. But personally I'd feel that implantation is a good low-end starting point.

Delirium wrote: »

Also in many cases young girls will die during the pregnancy due to complications caused by their young age/ physical development. They have a higher mortality rate to that of an adult woman. Do you not think that the girl (and her family) should at least have the choice to proceed with the pregnancy (or not)? Given that there are increased risks to the girls life given her young age?

I certainly think that where the pregnancy presents an immediate physical risk to the life of the mother abortion should be an option, but where it is a potential but unspecific possibility of a risk to her life, no I don't think that rises to the level necessary to consider taking someone else's life.

Timberrrrrrrr

Absolam wrote: »

I think that depends on your point of view; I certainly wouldn't try to say that a philosophical concept has a scientific basis. But personally I'd feel that implantation is a good low-end starting point.
I certainly think that where the pregnancy presents an immediate physical risk to the life of the mother abortion should be an option, but where it is a potential but unspecific possibility of a risk to her life, no I don't think that rises to the level necessary to consider taking someone else's life.

So if a 14 year old rape victim requests an abortion you think she should be denied it?

Absolam

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So if a 14 year old rape victim requests an abortion you think she should be denied it?

Pretty sure I said that already?

eviltwin

Absolam wrote: »

Pretty sure I said that already?

I understand your point of view on that but I think if it was a personal situation with someone you knew and you had to see that child suffer over something out of her control she doesn't want you'd do the right thing and help her. It would take a very cold person to be in that situation and do nothing.

robdonn

eviltwin wrote: »

I understand your point of view on that but I think if it was a personal situation with someone you knew and you had to see that child suffer over something out of her control she doesn't want you'd do the right thing and help her. It would take a very cold person to be in that situation and do nothing.

I do not agree with Absolam in his opinion, but I strongly disagree with these kind of arguments. "If it happened to you" is not how law should be decided, it is not the right of the harmed to decide the punishment.

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

I understand your point of view on that but I think if it was a personal situation with someone you knew and you had to see that child suffer over something out of her control she doesn't want you'd do the right thing and help her. It would take a very cold person to be in that situation and do nothing.

I assuredly would try to do the right thing and help her. I might even change my point of view and consider abortion to be an option in helping her; I imagine someone who was pro abortion might also change their point of view in the same circumstances and decide abortion was not a good way to help her; it happens that people change their minds, and there's no absolute position here that killing someone else is the only way to help someone.

However, I never said anyone should be in that situation and do nothing. I've been at pains to point out throughout that we should make great effort to ameliorate the effect such a situation has on the victim.

eviltwin

Absolam wrote: »

I assuredly would try to do the right thing and help her. I might even change my point of view and consider abortion to be an option in helping her; I imagine someone who was pro abortion might also change their point of view in the same circumstances and decide abortion was not a good way to help her; it happens that people change their minds, and there's no absolute position here that killing someone else is the only way to help someone.

However, I never said anyone should be in that situation and do nothing. I've been at pains to point out throughout that we should make great effort to ameliorate the effect such a situation has on the victim.

How do you do that if she wants an abortion? Its a constant reminder of her ordeal, she'll never begin to heal if she is feeling violated all over again which she might if her control over her own body is being taken away from her. That's what the rapist did, people who claim to want to help should know better.

eviltwin

robdonn wrote: »

I do not agree with Absolam in his opinion, but I strongly disagree with these kind of arguments. "If it happened to you" is not how law should be decided, it is not the right of the harmed to decide the punishment.

That's how I vote on issues, I think about myself, my family, the people around me and what I would want for them. Its that line of thinking that got the ssm referendum through. I don't see any harm in putting yourself in the shoes of the person involved and making your decision that way.

robdonn

eviltwin wrote: »

How do you do that if she wants an abortion? Its a constant reminder of her ordeal, she'll never begin to heal if she is feeling violated all over again which she might if her control over her own body is being taken away from her. That's what the rapist did, people who claim to want to help should know better.

In fairness, he did say that he might change his opinion if put in the situation.

Absolam wrote: »

I might even change my point of view and consider abortion to be an option in helping her;

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

How do you do that if she wants an abortion? Its a constant reminder of her ordeal, she'll never begin to heal if she is feeling violated all over again which she might if her control over her own body is being taken away from her. That's what the rapist did, people who claim to want to help should know better.

Probably the same way you'd do it with someone who wants to kill the person who raped them; you don't let them kill that person but you counsel them, assist them, try to help them come to terms with the horrible things that happened them. The sort of thing you should be doing even if they have an abortion I would think.
I can't say I'm sufficiently medical expert to claim someone will or will not heal if they do or do not have an abortion, but I suspect it will still be the case that what the rapist did will be the same regardless of whether she has an abortion, so I suppose people who claim to want to help should know that too?

eviltwin

Absolam wrote: »

Probably the same way you'd do it with someone who wants to kill the person who raped them; you don't let them kill that person but you counsel them, assist them, try to help them come to terms with the horrible things that happened them. The sort of thing you should be doing even if they have an abortion I would think.
I can't say I'm sufficiently medical expert to claim someone will or will not heal if they do or do not have an abortion, but I suspect it will still be the case that what the rapist did will be the same regardless of whether she has an abortion, so I suppose people who claim to want to help should know that too?

When you've lost your bodily autonomy during an assault the last thing you need is someone taking over and telling you what to do. Its one thing if a girl or woman allows someone else to make decisions for her but if she's asking for one thing and being told no its probably going to do her emotional damage. My background is in crisis counselling people who have had their control taken away from them and the first thing we learn is that we never lead or steer them any way, we give them back their control and let them find their own answers. I know where you are coming from and I know you aren't being cruel but I just can't agree with you, if someone has been violated and wants the abortion she should be given all the support she needs to have it.

Two Sheds

Another video released -

Two Sheds

Testimony to Congress against Planned Parenthood

Overheal

Well that's certainly a unique perspective!

While I certainly won't dismiss her statement and encourage others to give it a listen, it's important to note that involved a late-term abortion, which to my knowledge is something not routinely done anymore in most situations and beyond the threshold for what most people consider Life.

Timberrrrrrrr

Two Sheds wrote: »

Another video released -

Not even worth watching at this stage, give us a quick synopsis of their claims in this one.

Overheal

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Not even worth watching at this stage, give us a quick synopsis of their claims in this one.

Im disappointed, be more open-minded. In fact I was just coming back to post that this latest video will ultimately trigger a shift in this entire discussion - I encourage all to view it.

Timberrrrrrrr

Overheal wrote: »

Im disappointed, be more open-minded. In fact I was just coming back to post that this latest video will ultimately trigger a shift in this entire discussion - I encourage all to view it.

The same was said about the last 7 or 8. C'mon give us a breakdown of the new startling revelations that prove PP are breaking the law.

robdonn

Two Sheds wrote: »

Another video released -

Vanessa Russo - Compliance Program Administrator, Planned Parenthood Keystone wrote:

Exactly, and I understand that but like, do you, like, a company like this that wants to, wants to give our organization money for the tissue, I think that that's a valid exchange. And that that's okay. Providing that we are very sensitive to the patient, and the consent, and all of that. I don't see a problem with that. And I understand that we have to worry about our rep and everything like that, but -

Essentially all this video has is members of Planned Parenthood or affiliates discussing how remuneration shouldn't be an issue, and warning others that the media would spin it out of ignorance.

Deb VanDerhei - National Director, Consortium of Abortion Providers (CAPS), PPFA wrote:

There are Planned Parenthoods that participate in donation programs that are reimbursed for it.

Reimbursed, the key word here.

robdonn

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The same was said about the last 7 or 8. C'mon give us a breakdown of the new startling revelations that prove PP are breaking the law.

This video does more in favour of Planned Parenthood than damages it.

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

When you've lost your bodily autonomy during an assault the last thing you need is someone taking over and telling you what to do. Its one thing if a girl or woman allows someone else to make decisions for her but if she's asking for one thing and being told no its probably going to do her emotional damage. My background is in crisis counselling people who have had their control taken away from them and the first thing we learn is that we never lead or steer them any way, we give them back their control and let them find their own answers. I know where you are coming from and I know you aren't being cruel but I just can't agree with you, if someone has been violated and wants the abortion she should be given all the support she needs to have it.

And yet I suspect you wouldn't say if someone has been violated and wants to kill her rapist she should be given all the support she needs to do so; the support you're choosing to give is predicated on your idea that it's ok to kill her foetus, the support I choose to give is predicated on my idea that it's not.

Overheal

robdonn wrote: »

This video does more in favour of Planned Parenthood than damages it.

Depends on who you hear in the video and your thoughts. I'm trying to look at it detached from my own opinion on the social issues and tbh there are a couple people in that video I'd call up for a hearing on Capitol Hill, like Vanessa Russo mid-video who at length discusses side-stepping "ridiculous" laws (which laws aren't explicit in her language) in order to facilitate the 'bigger picture' - which the implication is in her speech is getting tissue from clinic to scientist for furthering research.

How you feel about that may vary but she all but confesses to circumventing established laws. It is at the very least noteworthy.

robdonn

Overheal wrote: »

Depends on who you hear in the video and your thoughts. I'm trying to look at it detached from my own opinion on the social issues and tbh there are a couple people in that video I'd call up for a hearing on Capitol Hill, like Vanessa Russo mid-video who at length discusses side-stepping "ridiculous" laws (which laws aren't explicit in her language) in order to facilitate the 'bigger picture' - which the implication is in her speech is getting tissue from clinic to scientist for furthering research.

How you feel about that may vary but she all but confesses to circumventing established laws. It is at the very least noteworthy.

I don't read that as attempting, or suggesting, to side-step any laws. It sounds more like she is complaining about certain "ridiculous" laws that make their work unnecessarily difficult. She seems to just be vocalising her frustration of non-issues being debated rather than "the real issue and truths". Or as she so eloquently puts it, "I don't feel like we should participate in conversations based on crap."

At no point does she confess, in any way, to circumventing any established laws, but rather seems to just have a rant about how she disagrees with them.

Overheal

I would still much like to see the unabridged video files.

Absolam

Overheal wrote: »

I would still much like to see the unabridged video files.

I agree; given the amount that's been said about the selective editing of the previous videos I think the originals are the only ones that would be worth giving any consideration at all to.

Overheal

The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee has issued a subpoena calling for the Center for Medical Progress to submit its unaltered video files for investigation; Republicans strategize their next move to defund Planned Parenthood

http://go.nationalpartnership.org/site/News2?abbr=daily2_&id=48720&security=1201

The new move to defund PP doesn't sound like it has any more holding power than previous attempts (ie. Medicare and Medicaid law steps in and points out you can't do that). Also, the bill they are trying to attach it to is one of the many attempts to try and disassemble the Affordable Care Act (and by many I mean, dozens of attempts to pass through legislation to mess with Obamacare that have all failed and wasted everyone's time and taxpayer monies). It won't pass, the GOP only keeps doing these things because they are either insane or they believe their constituents are emphatically pleased at their ceremonial attempts to protest Obamacare.

Assuming for a moment the latest video has truth in it, I would at least like to consider the possibility that as a practical matter, the law as worded may really be too restrictive, banning all or most money from the transaction from clinic to research. It shouldn't be a get-rich-quick scheme and there should be some cap on % of gross revenues or something (but even that suggestion has yielded loopholes - see Colleges and GI Bill funding). At the same time, if there is only expense in doing it, nobody will afford to facilitate it, and lots of potential research benefits go out the window and tissue once again reverts to being total refuse after an abortion (regardless of how you feel about Roe v Wade/Abortion).

Side note: one thing I don't think that you can't really blame on editing is the one abortionist in the latest video talking about preserving high-demand tissues. Whether the motivation for doing that is profit or not is unclear, and many in the video acknowledge the reward of being part of advancing research - providing high demand tissue means expediting important discoveries.

credoie

Tide is turning on the killing baby industry. Planned Parenthood is defunded. Lets hope that Ireland keeps the 8th and defends its children and Mothers.

credoie

There has been a massive public backlash against abortion in the US. For years Pro-choice groups have been pushing its only cells, its not human, it feels nothing. Yet when they start selling body parts they are VERY much human. These are real children that are killed, they have rights.

Thankfully in Ireland under our constitution the unborn has rights, as well as the Mother.