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Ali Selim refuses to march in Muslim march against Isis
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I'm not a fan of Mr Selim. Not one bit! It never ceases to amaze how people still have to distort statements and make ridiculous inferences to try convince people of their point. Jeez you can easily accomplish that without building up such ridiculous nonsense.
Why should Muslims publicly release statements condemning killings? I don't see other religious churches do it. I don't see Black or white people do when somebody is killed for racial tensions reasons - an Islam isn't even a race.
But yeah go on alienate Muslims and help grow an environment that may entice others to more extreme flavors of Islam.0 -
Why are you asking me? You should know whether they did or did not, given the vehemence of your stance on the 'deafening silence' of muslim 'leadership'. Wouldn't it be rather strange to discover they had, given your earlier statements?
http://www.islamireland.ie/
I ask this because - despite having produced examples of 'muslim leadership' from all corners of the globe condemning IS and others, you seem to have jumped into the car ignoring them, and headed straight to Clonskeagh.
It's about a march in Ireland, not anywhere else.
Also my ancecdotes are true-don't knock 'em.
I note The Clonskeagh Mosque referred to innocent civilians-nice cop out. I wonder what makes a guilty civilian, possibly someone who doesn't adhere to Islamic teaching? Americans, because their government waged war on Iraq? Israelis because they build settlements? I wonder what Selim's take on the gay guys being thrown from a rooftop by ISIS is.
How the largest Islamic organisation in the state can decide that a march condemning Islmaist terrorism doesn't concern them, I have fail to understand.
I spoke with a Pakistani doctor pal, who hails from the Swat Valley. I referred to it's renowned beauty. He spoke of how it used to be, and denounced the "bastard Taliban" for the reign of terror it has waged there, and the man was in tears, and he said he was ashamed of what people worldwide were doing in the name of Islam.
How many Irish people, haters of the provos, marched against provo violence? Tens of thousands, all over the country, at different times. They were not the bombers or snipers, but they wanted to show that it was not done in their name and they wanted to show their utter revulsion.
The same actions by Selim and Co, would I believe make a powerful statement.
Actions speak louder than words.0 -
.SILVAMAN wrote:I note The Clonskeagh Mosque referred to innocent civilians-nice cop out. I wonder what makes a guilty civilian, possibly someone who doesn't adhere to Islamic teaching? Americans, because their government waged war on Iraq? Israelis because they build settlements? I wonder what Selim's take on the gay guys being thrown from a rooftop by ISIS is
So you've gone from claiming that muslim leadership generally is silent (and refused to acknowledge you were wrong) to claiming the leadership of Clonskeagh mosque were silent (and failing to acknowledge you were wrong) to semantics over the condemnation issued by that mosque. At this stage it's safe to say that your grudge is with the muslim community, and any facts or details that are at odds with that view will be ignored or deridedSILVAMAN wrote:How the largest Islamic organisation in the state can decide that a march condemning Islmaist terrorism doesn't concern them, I have fail to understand.
You don't want to understand, you mean.SILVAMAN wrote:Actions speak louder than words.
.....but according to you, there were no "words" in the first place. If theres a march, doubtless there'll be something wrong with that, if there's hunger strikes and fasts in protests, it won't be enough....0 -
expectationlost wrote: »
Does seem very carefully worded, and his past remarks also add to my suspicion, it's not like a lot of Muslims were not happy to see the Tunisia attack, just check a Muslim forum that is much like boards but obviously for Muslims, plenty of praise for the gunman for wiping the "naked filth" of the beach, also calling all western tourists rapists and child sex tourists, and this is not a extremist site, just your average Muslims! ! Most of the sympathetic posts are by people labeled kaffir.
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?445656-39-Tourists-killed-in-Tunis0 -
Does seem very carefully worded, and his past remarks also add to my suspicion, it's not (............)! ! Most of the sympathetic posts are by people labeled kaffir.
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?445656-39-Tourists-killed-in-Tunis
Almost as convincing a level of argument as that oft seen in Youtube comments.0 -
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Almost as convincing a level of argument as that oft seen in Youtube comments.
I don't really understand your point? I am simply linking to a forum of average Muslims so people can build an opinion on their thinking, I believe it to be a good way of doing this, for example if someone asked me about Irish culture and opinion and I recommend they visited boards.ie they would build the opinion that on average the Irish are pretty liberal, pro gay rights and gender equality by reading the opinions of thousands of people without being influenced by bias. There are several Muslim forums, ummah forum, sunni forum etc and I have read them, as I recommend others do, literally thousands of posts and I have came to the opinion that on average Muslims are homophobic, conservitive and sexest.0 -
I don't really understand your point? I am simply linking to a forum of average Muslims .
How do you know they're in any way representative?so people can build an opinion on their thinking, I believe it to be a good way of doing this, for example if someone asked me about Irish culture and opinion and I recommend they visited boards.ie they would build the opinion that on average the Irish are pretty liberal, pro gay rights and gender equality by reading the opinions of thousands of people without being influenced by bias. There are several Muslim forums, ummah forum, sunni forum etc and I have read them, as I recommend others do, literally thousands of posts and I have came to the opinion that on average Muslims are homophobic, conservitive and sexest.
So you go to religious forums and discover conservative religious views.....shocking.
What has all this to do with the OP btw?0 -
I don't really understand your point? I am simply linking to a forum of average Muslims so people can build an opinion on their thinking, I believe it to be a good way of doing this, for example if someone asked me about Irish culture and opinion and I recommend they visited boards.ie they would build the opinion that on average the Irish are pretty liberal, pro gay rights and gender equality by reading the opinions of thousands of people without being influenced by bias. There are several Muslim forums, ummah forum, sunni forum etc and I have read them, as I recommend others do, literally thousands of posts and I have came to the opinion that on average Muslims are homophobic, conservitive and sexest.
A muslim forum is probably not going to contain average muslims. Head over to the Christianity forum here and tell us how liberal and pro gay rights Ireland is based on it. Im sure there are plenty of muslims who would support those things but if they are anything like Christians, their forums are going to be made up of the more conservative members.0 -
Your post leads me to believe you never clicked the link? They are not religious only forums but forums for people that are Muslim, they are just like boards.ie with different sections including religious sections like boards, unfortunately there would be a lot more condoning the murder of gays etc on the Muslim boards than there would on the Christianity section on these boards.Not a NSA agent wrote: »A muslim forum is probably not going to contain average muslims. Head over to the Christianity forum here and tell us how liberal and pro gay rights Ireland is based on it. Im sure there are plenty of muslims who would support those things but if they are anything like Christians, their forums are going to be made up of the more conservative members.
What this boils down to is people like Nodin etc want to tell people how Muslims think, personally I believe that you are better researching it for yourself! There are loads of Islamic/Muslim oriented discussion boards and after reading literally thousands of individual opinions of Muslims who are advanced enough to own/operate a computer, speak English and have Internet access and I can say with certainty than in general Muslims are very conservitive, homophobic and misogynist as well as having significant support for attacks like seen in France and Tunisia.0 -
So you go to religious forums and discover conservative religious views.....shocking.
Hang on, I linked to a thread where people were justifying the murder of tourists in Tunisia, saying they were glad the filth were wiped from the beach etc and you call that expressing conservative religious views?......shocking.
Could you perhaps link to any western/Christian majority forums were such views are found?0 -
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Not a NSA agent wrote: »A muslim forum is probably not going to contain average muslims. Head over to the Christianity forum here and tell us how liberal and pro gay rights Ireland is based on it. Im sure there are plenty of muslims who would support those things but if they are anything like Christians, their forums are going to be made up of the more conservative members.
Actually you should head over and have a look (link below). You're unlikely to find the any level of hatred even close to whats on ummah.com. And, seriously, are you suggesting people on the boards.ie Christianity forum are advocating or supportive of violence against gay people?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333
If that many people support a Death Cult like ISIL for reasons of religious convictions oo Youtube, that's also worrying. But I think a debate on a mainstream Islamic forum is different from random youtube postings - where insults and mockery are the norm.Almost as convincing a level of argument as that oft seen in Youtube comments.
I think Ali Selim is trying to position himself as true spokesman for Islam in Ireland. In response to the Blanchardstown Iman's anti-ISIL march, which is all over the news. Ali Selim doesn't just say he not in favour of it. He quite witheringly says he wasn't aware of it.
"If the biggest Islamic organisation (Clonskeagh) is not aware of it, what does it mean?". In other words we (me) are top dog.
In response to the other Iman's concerns about radicalisation of Irish Muslims. Ali Selim states "there's no such thing", "it's not happening", and goes onto describe the unique conditions in Ireland which means Muslims here are uniquely invulnerable to the lure of ISIL. Which is nonsense given the reports of Irish Muslims in Syria, and the confirmations of deaths there.
Not only does it seem that Ali Selim is positioning himself as the top dog spokesman, if you look at his comments on Irish eduction there are some worrying outcomes:
(1) He's saying that a country should change its school system to be more "inclusive" of Islam. Of course, how these changes impact on those of other other faiths, or none, he has nothing to add.
(2) As pointed out by Atheist Ireland, they "invites the two publicly funded National schools under the patronage of the Islamic Foundation of Ireland to lead the way by including the children of atheists and secularists in their schools."
http://atheist.ie/2014/09/dr-ali-selim-of-the-islamic-cultural-centre-calls-for-revolution-of-inclusivity-in-irish-schools-and-an-upheaval-in-irish-educational-perspectives/
The ban on stringed instruments and dancing could be added to this too.
Unless perhaps he's an intolerant hypocrite, "inclusivity" when it suits him only.
This is the most interesting I noticed from his comments:
(3) He says Muslims do the following things, so schools should implment them. This of course ignores that fact that not all Muslims behave in the way that he dictates. (I recall Dr Omar Bhamjee, Ireland first Mulism TD, considered himself a Muslim but also said he'd had a few pints of Guinness over the years). Ali Selim is in effect telling Irish Muslims how to be a "proper Muslim".
"[Islam] forbids pre- and extramarital sexual relations, whereas RSE perceives sexual relations outside wedlock as part of normal practices."
(so do most versions of Christianity - but this sexual education, not religious education?)
"[Irish schools should] employ a female PE teacher and provide students with a sports hall not accessible to men during times when girls are at play. They should also not be visible to men while at play."
"If music is performed using non-tuneable percussion instruments such as drums, most Muslims will have no problem."
"Physical contact between members of the opposite sex who can be legally married is forbidden in Islam."
“any form of raffle is strictly forbidden in Islam”.
and so on.0 -
Wondered how long it would take for you to pop out of the woodwork.
I'm interested in what I hear from others, which is the deafening silence from the Muslim leadership, if such a thing exists. They are more interested in promoting Ramadan than condemning terrorism.
Less of dropping on their knees to pray and a little more action in condemning terrorists. Simple as that.
Not to do so strongly suggests approval.
The first I've heard about this march is the article you linked to, in the independent trying to spin the march condemning ISIS into some kind of evidence that muslims support ISIS. The media are playing a very negative role in this issue, they're stoking fear and making extremism appear more normalised than it actually is.
The fact is that the media don't care when a muslim condermns ISIS, but will turn any extremist statement into a front page headline.
The muslim community in Ireland are mostly appalled of what is happening with the extremist fringes of Islam. I think the March is a very good idea, and I think there should be a global day of protest by all muslims in the world against the extremism and terrorism and medieval attitudes of ISIS and Al Qaeda Boku Haram and the Taliban and the Islamic Brotherhood and the other violent islamicist movements.0 -
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What this boils down to is people like Nodin etc want to tell people how Muslims think, personally I believe that you are better researching it for yourself! There are loads of Islamic/Muslim oriented discussion boards and after reading literally thousands of individual opinions of Muslims who are advanced enough to own/operate a computer, speak English and have Internet access and I can say with certainty than in general Muslims are very conservitive, homophobic and misogynist as well as having significant support for attacks like seen in France and Tunisia.
emmmm........0 -
Your post leads me to believe you never clicked the link? They are not religious only forums but forums for people that are Muslim, they are just like boards.ie with different sections including religious sections like boards, unfortunately there would be a lot more condoning the murder of gays etc on the Muslim boards than there would on the Christianity section on these boards.
What this boils down to is people like Nodin etc want to tell people how Muslims think, personally I believe that you are better researching it for yourself! There are loads of Islamic/Muslim oriented discussion boards and after reading literally thousands of individual opinions of Muslims who are advanced enough to own/operate a computer, speak English and have Internet access and I can say with certainty than in general Muslims are very conservitive, homophobic and misogynist as well as having significant support for attacks like seen in France and Tunisia.
Ummah: The Online Muslims Community.
Its a website aimed at muslims with its main forums being:
Ramadhan Forum
Ramadhan Forum - The Countdown....
The Lounge
Any Other General Subjects fits in here!
Marriage
Marriage In Islam
Islamic Lifestyle & Social Issues
Any issues pertaining to Lifestyle, Health, Social issues. Discuss medicine, food and general social life.
Competitions and Contests
Competitions and Contests
Its quite clearly aimed at religious people. I would never look at a forum aimed at a certain religion and think that the general discussion section is going to be clear of religion, I would be very disappointed.
Boards wouldnt be a fan of condoning the killing of others in general but nobody would look at the Christianity forum and think that Ireland must be a really tolerant place based on it. Kill them? No. Reduce their rights? Happily.
You complain that there are people telling us what Muslims think and then you go on to tell me that in general muslims are conservative, homophobic and misogynist.Actually you should head over and have a look (link below). You're unlikely to find the any level of hatred even close to whats on ummah.com. And, seriously, are you suggesting people on the boards.ie Christianity forum are advocating or supportive of violence against gay people?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333
Nope, but I wouldnt come away think Ireland was tolerant or liberal from reading there.0 -
emmmm........
As usual your reply is short on substance at bends context, to make it clear for you I recommend people do their own research and also gave my opinion on what I discovered, how can you constantly avoid the main points of the conversation and just throw out your one liners?0 -
Not a NSA agent wrote: »Ummah: The Online Muslims Community.
Its a website aimed at muslims with its main forums being:
Ramadhan Forum
Ramadhan Forum - The Countdown....
The Lounge
Any Other General Subjects fits in here!
Marriage
Marriage In Islam
Islamic Lifestyle & Social Issues
Any issues pertaining to Lifestyle, Health, Social issues. Discuss medicine, food and general social life.
Competitions and Contests
Competitions and Contests
Its quite clearly aimed at religious people. I would never look at a forum aimed at a certain religion and think that the general discussion section is going to be clear of religion, I would be very disappointed.
Boards wouldnt be a fan of condoning the killing of others in general but nobody would look at the Christianity forum and think that Ireland must be a really tolerant place based on it. Kill them? No. Reduce their rights? Happily.
You complain that there are people telling us what Muslims think and then you go on to tell me that in general muslims are conservative, homophobic and misogynist.
Nope, but I wouldnt come away think Ireland was tolerant or liberal from reading there.
Islam is not just a religion, it's a way of life, you cannot as a Muslim separate your religion from your home/social life, I am sure if you ask if that's true in the Islam section of this forum it will be confirmed. There are loads of Islam forums online and every one of them paints the same picture.0 -
As usual your reply is short on substance at bends context, to make it clear for you I recommend people do their own research and also gave my opinion on what I discovered, how can you constantly avoid the main points of the conversation and just throw out your one liners?
I've already covered the main points of the conversation re the OP. Now we're looking at the silly argument over a religious forum supposedly being representative of the muslim population and - in my last post - a somewhat humorous juxtaposition of contrary notions contained in a single post.0 -
I've already covered the main points of the conversation re the OP. Now we're looking at the silly argument over a religious forum supposedly being representative of the muslim population and - in my last post - a somewhat humorous juxtaposition of contrary notions contained in a single post.
So are you saying you only discuss things that directly relate only to the topic in the op? Is this a new rule for you or is it only to avoid discussing things that are uncomfortable for you?
Also, they are Islamic forums, not religious forums, do you understand the concept of ummah? there are loads of them, remember muslims say Islam is a lifestyle, not merely a religion, anyway, even if you want to paint them as strictly religious forums that only paint a light on religious muslims could you tell me what percentage of muslims you believe to be non religious?0 -
So are you saying you only discuss things that directly relate only to the topic in the op? Is this a new rule for you or is it only to avoid discussing things that are uncomfortable for you?
It's fairly clear what I meant.Also, they are Islamic forums, not religious forums,
......and Islam is a ......?do you understand the concept of ummah? there are loads of them, remember muslims say Islam is a lifestyle, not merely a religion, anyway, even if you want to paint them as strictly religious forums that only paint a light on religious muslims could you tell me what percentage of muslims you believe to be non religious?
Here? Not a bogs notion. In France about 67% are non-practicing.
http://plus.lefigaro.fr/note/how-does-france-count-its-muslim-population-20110407-435643
And of course they are divided into Sunni, Shia and others.0 -
So she doesn't want to march what's the big deal? I'm a Sinn Fein member & I don't always feel like marching at every single local march & there's several of them in Bray every year.0
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Ali Selim is just a few steps removed from an ISIS type. I have heard him speak and he never distances himself from fascist mistreatment of Islam and approves of compulsory Hijab and other such fascist laws. I have NEVER heard him utter an unkind word about al Qaeda or ISIL aka ISIS or the Taliban.
He is one of two things. He is a a bought and paid for Middle Eastern fascist or else he is afraid of the fascists and tries to appease them.0 -
BuilderPlumber wrote: »Ali Selim is just a few steps removed from an ISIS type. I have heard him speak and he never distances himself from fascist mistreatment of Islam and approves of compulsory Hijab and other such fascist laws. I have NEVER heard him utter an unkind word about al Qaeda or ISIL aka ISIS or the Taliban.
He is one of two things. He is a a bought and paid for Middle Eastern fascist or else he is afraid of the fascists and tries to appease them.
Have you any idea what a Fascist is, or what Fascism entails ?0 -
Have you any idea what a Fascist is, or what Fascism entails ?
Yeah, the last time I checked the actual name was from Mussolini's regime but also applied to Hitler's Nazis regime, and 1940s Japan. The same tyranny of this style (abused system by a dictator = right, everyone else = wrong) has been copied by the Khmer Rouge, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, al Qaeda and ISIS among other notables ever since). And guess what happens those who are not up to the mark of the 'god approved' regime? death and torture.
BTW: that 1930s Italian dictators did not even invent it!! I do not have to elaborate.0 -
So the mask slips off even further. Today's Indo reports that there's a split amongst Muslims in this country, with the Clonskeagh Mosque and their pals claiming that such a march is "inappropriate".
Believing that there is no radicalisation of youth in Ireland, Ali Selim of the Clonskeagh Mosque appears to believe that there is no need for such a march.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/muslim-leaders-split-over-planned-is-protest-march-31352219.html
I wonder how Selim felt about Lorna Carty and Laurence and Martina Hayes who were slaughtered at the hands of ISIS? Or for that matter, the tens of thousands of innocents beheaded, burned alive, thrown off roofs, drowned.
An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.
Who was it that said 'by their fruits ye shall know them, not by their disclaimers.
Fair play to Selim for not taking part in this pointless march that ISIS won't even know happened.0 -
BuilderPlumber wrote: »Yeah, the last time I checked the actual name was from Mussolini's regime but also applied to Hitler's Nazis regime, and 1940s Japan. The same tyranny of this style (abused system by a dictator = right, everyone else = wrong) has been copied by the Khmer Rouge, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, al Qaeda and ISIS among other notables ever since). And guess what happens those who are not up to the mark of the 'god approved' regime? death and torture.
BTW: that 1930s Italian dictators did not even invent it!! I do not have to elaborate.
So you don't know what Fascism is then. Thanks for clearing that up.0 -
So naive to think that ISIS gives two damns about any marches or negativity towards them, stupid meaningless foolish anti ISIS demonstrations or rallys mean absolutely nothing to them, and in fact makes them stronger!!0
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DarkyHughes wrote: »So you don't know what Fascism is then. Thanks for clearing that up.
Well if the above regimes I listed are not fascist, then milk comes from coal and the pyramids are made out of plastic!
Or have a missed out on the more tender, loving, caring sides of Hitler, Mussolini, ISIS, etc.?0 -
So naive to think that ISIS gives two damns about any marches or negativity towards them, stupid meaningless foolish anti ISIS demonstrations or rallys mean absolutely nothing to them, and in fact makes them stronger!!
What a complete nonsense of a post. ISIS don't even follow the Koran...just some buggered up version which they make up as they go along.
Most of the IS morons couldn't spell democracy let alone care about it.
It isn't about ISIS caring. It's about good honest Muslims demonstrating their disgust and revulsion at the hijacking of their religion by scum.
I applaude those who turned out. They are, hopefully, the beginning of a stronger movement than that of Selim and his band of subversive two faced scumbag supporters.
There may have been only 50 people today but hopefully their courage will inspire others and ensure we don't end up like a lot of communities across the Irish sea - divided and distrustful.0 -
What a complete nonsense of a post. ISIS don't even follow the Koran...just some buggered up version which they make up as they go along.
Most of the IS morons couldn't spell democracy let alone care about it.
It isn't about ISIS caring. It's about good honest Muslims demonstrating their disgust and revulsion at the hijacking of their religion by scum.
I applaude those who turned out. They are, hopefully, the beginning of a stronger movement than that of Selim and his band of subversive two faced scumbag supporters.
There may have been only 50 people today but hopefully their courage will inspire others and ensure we don't end up like a lot of communities across the Irish sea - divided and distrustful.
ISIS are to Islam what the Khmer Rouge are to socialism. But these two are hardly alone in being an evil organisation who uses an ideology to further their cause. The likes of Hitler are often pointed out too as the originators of what we term fascism. But this type of thing is as old as mankind.
The black days of medieval Christianity showed us how religion could be used to frighten, kill, colonise and empower. ISIS want to try and do the same.
ISIS do not follow the Koran and are not Islamic. They are evil, manipulative people who have set up their own cult and like the Taliban make things up as they go along. The likes of ISIS and Taliban loot and pillage works of art and historical sites and sell it off for huge amounts of money similar to their idols the Nazis.
The march indeed is all about good Muslims standing up for themselves. For the past 30-40 years, organisations like al Qaeda and ISIS have hijacked Islam often with the 100% support of the West when it suited.
The telling thing about organisations like ISIS is the complete lack of support they have in their own countries. They have to rely 100% on foreign fighters and bring the brainwashed, disaffected minority from all over North Africa and Europe onboard.
Selim and others like him are a negative force. Their views often are similar to those of ISIS. What perhaps is most amazing is the mixed up left and right politricks. Many hard left Irish are apologetic regarding organisations like ISIS who are hard right and imperial in nature.0 -
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BuilderPlumber wrote: »Well if the above regimes I listed are not fascist, then milk comes from coal and the pyramids are made out of plastic!
Or have a missed out on the more tender, loving, caring sides of Hitler, Mussolini, ISIS, etc.?
Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, al Qaeda and ISIS.
Their brutal regimes but they don't believe in race based politics. They don't care what country you come from or what color you are. But as long your an extremist & prepared to do whatever their leaders want you to do your in. I very much doubt anyone in those regimes has ever even read Mien Kampf. I know they don't like the Jewish people but that's sectarianism it's not based on racism, they don't like Christians either but again that's sectarianism not racism.
I wouldn't really call the Khmer Rouge fascist. They had a very extreme view of Stalinism & other right-wing deviations of Communism mixed into their mad ideology.
The Nazi's & Mussolini would be the only ones I'd considered true & whole Fascist regimes all threw out their ideologies.0
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