Ali Selim refuses to march in Muslim march against Isis

SILVAMAN

So the mask slips off even further. Today's Indo reports that there's a split amongst Muslims in this country, with the Clonskeagh Mosque and their pals claiming that such a march is "inappropriate".
Believing that there is no radicalisation of youth in Ireland, Ali Selim of the Clonskeagh Mosque appears to believe that there is no need for such a march.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/muslim-leaders-split-over-planned-is-protest-march-31352219.html

I wonder how Selim felt about Lorna Carty and Laurence and Martina Hayes who were slaughtered at the hands of ISIS? Or for that matter, the tens of thousands of innocents beheaded, burned alive, thrown off roofs, drowned.
An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.
Who was it that said 'by their fruits ye shall know them, not by their disclaimers.

johnnyskeleton

Im not sure that refusing to support someone else's initiaitive or not wanting to march in the streets suggests any implicit approval of IS or that a mask has somehow slipped and revealed a hidden motive

One More Toy

Despicable, time to send him on a plane to Syria

desertcircus

SILVAMAN wrote: »

So the mask slips off even further. Today's Indo reports that there's a split amongst Muslims in this country, with the Clonskeagh Mosque and their pals claiming that such a march is "inappropriate".
Believing that there is no radicalisation of youth in Ireland, Ali Selim of the Clonskeagh Mosque appears to believe that there is no need for such a march.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/muslim-leaders-split-over-planned-is-protest-march-31352219.html

I wonder how Selim felt about Lorna Carty and Laurence and Martina Hayes who were slaughtered at the hands of ISIS? Or for that matter, the tens of thousands of innocents beheaded, burned alive, thrown off roofs, drowned.
An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.
Who was it that said 'by their fruits ye shall know them, not by their disclaimers.

Seriously? The article you linked to implies that Selim wasn't actually aware of the planned march at all, and he points out that the ICCI have condemned ISIL "in print, on websites, before their congregations, on the radio and television". Not to mention the fact that it's entirely possible for someone to hold the position that a march isn't the right approach.

SILVAMAN

desertcircus wrote: »

Seriously? The article you linked to implies that Selim wasn't actually aware of the planned march at all, and he points out that the ICCI have condemned ISIL "in print, on websites, before their congregations, on the radio and television". Not to mention the fact that it's entirely possible for someone to hold the position that a march isn't the right approach.

He's now aware of it. Let him get out and do the western thing which is to march and be seen to show his disgust.

Sand

SILVAMAN wrote: »

He's now aware of it. Let him get out and do the western thing which is to march and be seen to show his disgust.

Will you be marching?

SILVAMAN

Sand wrote: »

Will you be marching?

I'm not a Muslim-in fact I'm someone most likely ISIS would throw from a roof.
The aim of the march is to show that Muslims, a group whos silence in the face of Islamicc terrorism has been deafening.

Nodin

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim-in fact I'm someone most likely ISIS would throw from a roof.
The aim of the march is to show that Muslims, a group whos silence in the face of Islamicc terrorism has been deafening.

But, as Selim pointed out, they haven't been silent. Nor have the other grouping who are organising the march.

SILVAMAN wrote: »

He's now aware of it. Let him get out and do the western thing which is to march and be seen to show his disgust.

You evidently haven't noticed the numerous posters who disagree with protests and generally consider them a waste of time.

SILVAMAN

Nodin wrote: »

But, as Selim pointed out, they haven't been silent. Nor have the other grouping who are organising the march.



You evidently haven't noticed the numerous posters who disagree with protests and generally consider them a waste of time.

Wondered how long it would take for you to pop out of the woodwork.
I'm interested in what I hear from others, which is the deafening silence from the Muslim leadership, if such a thing exists. They are more interested in promoting Ramadan than condemning terrorism.
Less of dropping on their knees to pray and a little more action in condemning terrorists. Simple as that.
Not to do so strongly suggests approval.

oscarBravo

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Not to do so strongly suggests approval.

So someone has to protest in terms set by you, or else be considered supporters of ISIS?

Get over yourself.

SILVAMAN

oscarBravo wrote: »

Get over yourself.

Excuse me?

oscarBravo

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Excuse me?

Did I stutter?

Whosthis

SILVAMAN wrote: »

So the mask slips off even further. Today's Indo reports that there's a split amongst Muslims in this country, with the Clonskeagh Mosque and their pals claiming that such a march is "inappropriate".
Believing that there is no radicalisation of youth in Ireland, Ali Selim of the Clonskeagh Mosque appears to believe that there is no need for such a march.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/muslim-leaders-split-over-planned-is-protest-march-31352219.html

I wonder how Selim felt about Lorna Carty and Laurence and Martina Hayes who were slaughtered at the hands of ISIS? Or for that matter, the tens of thousands of innocents beheaded, burned alive, thrown off roofs, drowned.
An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.
Who was it that said 'by their fruits ye shall know them, not by their disclaimers.

Did you even read the article? Or do you just take any opportunity to post your anti Islamic bull****. At no point in that article does Selim refuse to partake in the march. He states that he was unaware of the march and would need more information on it before deciding to join it.

Nodin

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Wondered how long it would take for you to pop out of the woodwork.
I'm interested in what I hear from others, which is the deafening silence from the Muslim leadership, if such a thing exists. They are more interested in promoting Ramadan than condemning terrorism..

But as has been pointed out to you, they have not been silent on the issue. What leadership or representative bodies exist have condemned terrorism before and IS in particular.

Evidently your concept of "deafening silence" is not the one most of us would hold
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/03/12/

http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277631/prominent-muslim-sheikh-issues-fatwa-against-isis-violence

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Muslim-cleric-in-Kerala-issues-fatwa-against-ISIS-jihadists-sell-several-dozens-of-Yazidi-women/articleshow/41281217.cms

http://allafrica.com/stories/201309130516.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/janardhan.php?articleid=4064

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Not to do so strongly suggests approval.

So you've now shifted the goalposts, from a stance where the "muslim leadership" are maintaining a "deafening silence" (which is untrue in any event) to demanding 'strong' condemnation - strong undoubtedly being defined as something other than what they actually say, whenever they do so.

johnnyskeleton

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Wondered how long it would take for you to pop out of the woodwork.

Mod: Lets not go down that road, eh? Play the ball not the man.

That goes for eveybody

Junkyard Tom

SILVAMAN wrote: »

An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.

Are you saying the guy advocates mass murder or are you just afflicted by a histrionic disposition?

Victor

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I'm interested in what I hear from others, which is the deafening silence from the Muslim leadership, if such a thing exists.

There is are different sects in Islam, just as there are different sects in Christianity.

There is no single leadership across Islam and there is no hierarchical leadership in any of those sects similar to the one that the Roman Catholic Church has. The Imam system is more like the unaffiliated / independent pastor system that is popular in parts of Christianity in North America and Africa.

Perhaps you could go off and study the various concepts of 'Muslim leadership' and come back when you decide which one applies.

Or maybe you hold Ian Paisley responsible for paedophile priests in Kerry?

SILVAMAN

Nodin wrote: »

But as has been pointed out to you, they have not been silent on the issue. What leadership or representative bodies exist have condemned terrorism before and IS in particular.

Evidently your concept of "deafening silence" is not the one most of us would hold
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/03/12/

http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277631/prominent-muslim-sheikh-issues-fatwa-against-isis-violence

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Muslim-cleric-in-Kerala-issues-fatwa-against-ISIS-jihadists-sell-several-dozens-of-Yazidi-women/articleshow/41281217.cms

http://allafrica.com/stories/201309130516.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/janardhan.php?articleid=4064




So you've now shifted the goalposts, from a stance where the "muslim leadership" are maintaining a "deafening silence" (which is untrue in any event) to demanding 'strong' condemnation - strong undoubtedly being defined as something other than what they actually say, whenever they do so.

Did the Clonskeagh Mosque issue a statement on the Tunisia attack?

SILVAMAN

Victor wrote: »

There is are different sects in Islam, just as there are different sects in Christianity.

There is no single leadership across Islam and there is no hierarchical leadership in any of those sects similar to the one that the Roman Catholic Church has. The Imam system is more like the unaffiliated / independent pastor system that is popular in parts of Christianity in North America and Africa.

Perhaps you could go off and study the various concepts of 'Muslim leadership' and come back when you decide which one applies.

Or maybe you hold Ian Paisley responsible for paedophile priests in Kerry?

I'll wait to see how you feel once there's been a terrorist attack by Islamic fundamentalists in this country, although some would say it has happened after the murder of Irish citizens in Tunisia.

johnnyskeleton

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Are you saying the guy advocates mass murder or are you just afflicted by a histrionic disposition?

Mod: Final on thread warning. Play nice

johnnyskeleton

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I'll wait to see how you feel once there's been a terrorist attack by Islamic fundamentalists in this country, although some would say it has happened after the murder of Irish citizens in Tunisia.

If a terrorist attack by a minority extremist turns people against all Muslims, then the extremists have won. They want to polarise the West vs Islam dichotomy. In reality most Muslims severely dislike the extremists, much like most christians dislike the Westboro Baptist Church etc.

Nodin

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Did the Clonskeagh Mosque issue a statement on the Tunisia attack?

Why are you asking me? You should know whether they did or did not, given the vehemence of your stance on the 'deafening silence' of muslim 'leadership'. Wouldn't it be rather strange to discover they had, given your earlier statements?
http://www.islamireland.ie/

It would be as if you were just sounding off uninformed opinions containing the worst kind of stereotypes.

We might want to define for the purposes of this thread who and what are referred to by the terms muslim leadership (what state/states they belong to) etc. I ask this because - despite having produced examples of 'muslim leadership' from all corners of the globe condemning IS and others, you seem to have jumped into the car ignoring them, and headed straight to Clonskeagh.

wes

The OPs post is very strange, as IS considers anyone who hasn't pledged allegiance to there so called "caliph" as being non-Muslim, and have killed people for that. So unless Mr Selim has pledged allegiance to IS, then I see no reason for him to have to condemn them anymore than the next person, as IS sees anyone who isn't with them, as being against them.

ressem

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If a terrorist attack by a minority extremist turns people against all Muslims, then the extremists have won. They want to polarise the West vs Islam dichotomy. In reality most Muslims severely dislike the extremists, much like most christians dislike the Westboro Baptist Church etc.

In Nigeria and Kuwait, these extremists are bombing mosques during the month of Ramadan killing as many people (muslim, at prayer) as the Tunisia killings.

It's a footnote on RTE.

An organisation like the Irish Council of Imams which incorporates Shia and Sunni Imams is as likely to be a target of extremists as any irish christian organisation.

Son Of A Vidic

SILVAMAN wrote: »

..An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood...

I believe you should go and actually read the article you posted.

valor rorghulis

I've heard anecdotally (and acknowledge how limited that is) from liberal Muslims that Clonskeagh is seen as the "hardline" mosque. That there was a lot of anti-Gaddafi, anti-Assad & pro Egyptian Muslim brotherhood sentiment

Now its a massive mosque, majority of attendees probably aren't even political.

I don't agree with the OP's hypothesis that Ireland would be drowning in blood under Selim, and I think its a scaremongering post. However I'm left wondering is Selim really not taking part in the march because he doesn't want to risk offending the hardliners/sneaking regarders in his flock. The kind of types who would like Sharia law in Ireland but not through terrorism.

I don't know enough about the situation at Clonskeagh to nail my opinions to a post, but its simply not credible that the head of the largest mosque in Ireland was "not aware" of the march

donaghs

There may be some power politics at play here as Dr Salem is clearly choosing to ignore the other Iman, and sit on the fence. Some of his statements are a bit suspect:

"Dr Ali Salem believes there is no "extremism" in Ireland".
There have always been many and various shades of "extremists" before Islam came to Ireland, and its very hard to believe there's not a single extremist among Irish Muslims. At least 3 Irish Muslims have died so far fighting against Assad. Which would naturally mean more have actually travelled there.

Dr Al-Qadri: ""I do not know anyone who has joined Islamic State but I have spoken to a few individuals that have expressed their wish to join Isil," he said. In the end, they didn't travel."
In my view, anyone who'd consider joining ISIL is an extremist. If you don't believe that just have a read about ISIL.

Dr Salem: "Radicalisation" of Muslims just won't take off in Ireland because, thanks to its neutrality and history, it doesn't have "the right environment" to allow extremism to flourish. "It can't happen."
Basically an outright denial. Ridiculous. People in Ireland can be "radicalised" to join various causes, whether the Spanish civil war (most actually went with O'Duffy to support Franco on their religious-themed crusade), or even the dozen or so that fought in Croatia/Bosnia in the early 90s.

SILVAMAN

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I believe you should go and actually read the article you posted.

I refer youto Selim's interview with Miriam O'Callaghanin the wake of the Charlie Hebdo terror.
He threatened our right to freedom of expression, and refused to answer O'Callaghan when she put it to him that he wanted the laws of this country changed to suit his beliefs.
There is no question in my mind but that there is something fundamentally sisister about the people who run the Clonskeagh Mosque. What they desire is in direct opposition to western democratic values. I will call it as I see it.
When I see young Muslim immigrants watching terrorist training videos over several weeks, in a small town internet cafe, it's my duty to report it. That I have done. When a Muslim internet store owner challenges me, a customer, because I have a Jewish dating site on the computer, and attempts to pull me off the chair so as to close the page, I'll defend myself and read him the riot act. This has also happened.
No, I don't believe all muslims support ISIS-far from it. But when the largrst Mosque in the state claims it hasn't heard of a march to denounce Islamist extremism; that Irish youth are not being radicalised; and that there is no need for such a march, that's what I call blowing smoke up my ass.

SILVAMAN

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If a terrorist attack by a minority extremist turns people against all Muslims, then the extremists have won. They want to polarise the West vs Islam dichotomy. In reality most Muslims severely dislike the extremists, much like most christians dislike the Westboro Baptist Church etc.

With the westboro baptist church, the saying "sticks and stones, etc." comes to mind, and it would appear to be working.
I doubt that such a tactic would work with ISIS.

expectationlost

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Did the Clonskeagh Mosque issue a statement on the Tunisia attack?

http://islamireland.ie/news/icci-statement-regarding-recent-events-in-tunisia-france/

The Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland fervently condemns the atrocious acts of terrorism perpetrated on innocent victims in Tunisia and France. We at the ICCI stand with all of Ireland in the condemnation of unjustified killings of the innocent.

and

Dr Ali Selim, spokesman for the Clonskeagh Mosque in Dublin last night told the Irish Mirror: “The Islamic centre expresses its condemnation for any crimes perpetrated against innocent people.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/tunisian-terror-attack-tragic-irish-5966230

Nodin

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I refer youto Selim's interview with Miriam O'Callaghanin the wake of the Charlie Hebdo terror.
He threatened our right to freedom of expression, and refused to answer O'Callaghan when she put it to him that he wanted the laws of this country changed to suit his beliefs.
There is no question in my mind but that there is something fundamentally sisister about the people who run the Clonskeagh Mosque. What they desire is in direct opposition to western democratic values. I will call it as I see it.
.

...and will do so regardless of the facts and without research, so it would appear.

SILVAMAN wrote: »

When I see young (.............) happened..

While these anecdotes may well be true, I'm not sure what they have to do with the thrust of the OP or your other statements.

SILVAMAN wrote: »

No, I don't believe all muslims support ISIS-far from it. But when the largrst Mosque in the state claims it hasn't heard of a march to denounce Islamist extremism; that Irish youth are not being radicalised; and that there is no need for such a march, that's what I call blowing smoke up my ass.

So, where a large Mosque in a religion with no central authority as such is not (a) all-knowing and (b)somebody there has opinions who differ to yours they are "blowing smoke up your ass" - ie "being evasive". This strikes me as yet another shift of the goal posts, particularily in light of your refusal to even acknowledge how wrong you were on the "deafening silence" of muslims generally and the Clonskeagh mosque specifically.

Turtwig

I'm not a fan of Mr Selim. Not one bit! It never ceases to amaze how people still have to distort statements and make ridiculous inferences to try convince people of their point. Jeez you can easily accomplish that without building up such ridiculous nonsense.

Why should Muslims publicly release statements condemning killings? I don't see other religious churches do it. I don't see Black or white people do when somebody is killed for racial tensions reasons - an Islam isn't even a race.

But yeah go on alienate Muslims and help grow an environment that may entice others to more extreme flavors of Islam.

SILVAMAN

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you asking me? You should know whether they did or did not, given the vehemence of your stance on the 'deafening silence' of muslim 'leadership'. Wouldn't it be rather strange to discover they had, given your earlier statements?
http://www.islamireland.ie/

I ask this because - despite having produced examples of 'muslim leadership' from all corners of the globe condemning IS and others, you seem to have jumped into the car ignoring them, and headed straight to Clonskeagh.

It's about a march in Ireland, not anywhere else.
Also my ancecdotes are true-don't knock 'em.
I note The Clonskeagh Mosque referred to innocent civilians-nice cop out. I wonder what makes a guilty civilian, possibly someone who doesn't adhere to Islamic teaching? Americans, because their government waged war on Iraq? Israelis because they build settlements? I wonder what Selim's take on the gay guys being thrown from a rooftop by ISIS is.
How the largest Islamic organisation in the state can decide that a march condemning Islmaist terrorism doesn't concern them, I have fail to understand.
I spoke with a Pakistani doctor pal, who hails from the Swat Valley. I referred to it's renowned beauty. He spoke of how it used to be, and denounced the "bastard Taliban" for the reign of terror it has waged there, and the man was in tears, and he said he was ashamed of what people worldwide were doing in the name of Islam.
How many Irish people, haters of the provos, marched against provo violence? Tens of thousands, all over the country, at different times. They were not the bombers or snipers, but they wanted to show that it was not done in their name and they wanted to show their utter revulsion.
The same actions by Selim and Co, would I believe make a powerful statement.
Actions speak louder than words.

Nodin

SILVAMAN wrote:

I note The Clonskeagh Mosque referred to innocent civilians-nice cop out. I wonder what makes a guilty civilian, possibly someone who doesn't adhere to Islamic teaching? Americans, because their government waged war on Iraq? Israelis because they build settlements? I wonder what Selim's take on the gay guys being thrown from a rooftop by ISIS is

.


So you've gone from claiming that muslim leadership generally is silent (and refused to acknowledge you were wrong) to claiming the leadership of Clonskeagh mosque were silent (and failing to acknowledge you were wrong) to semantics over the condemnation issued by that mosque. At this stage it's safe to say that your grudge is with the muslim community, and any facts or details that are at odds with that view will be ignored or derided

SILVAMAN wrote:

How the largest Islamic organisation in the state can decide that a march condemning Islmaist terrorism doesn't concern them, I have fail to understand.

You don't want to understand, you mean.

SILVAMAN wrote:

Actions speak louder than words.

.....but according to you, there were no "words" in the first place. If theres a march, doubtless there'll be something wrong with that, if there's hunger strikes and fasts in protests, it won't be enough....

gallag

expectationlost wrote: »

http://islamireland.ie/news/icci-statement-regarding-recent-events-in-tunisia-france/
and http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/tunisian-terror-attack-tragic-irish-5966230

Does seem very carefully worded, and his past remarks also add to my suspicion, it's not like a lot of Muslims were not happy to see the Tunisia attack, just check a Muslim forum that is much like boards but obviously for Muslims, plenty of praise for the gunman for wiping the "naked filth" of the beach, also calling all western tourists rapists and child sex tourists, and this is not a extremist site, just your average Muslims! ! Most of the sympathetic posts are by people labeled kaffir.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?445656-39-Tourists-killed-in-Tunis

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

Does seem very carefully worded, and his past remarks also add to my suspicion, it's not (............)! ! Most of the sympathetic posts are by people labeled kaffir.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?445656-39-Tourists-killed-in-Tunis

Almost as convincing a level of argument as that oft seen in Youtube comments.

gallag

Nodin wrote: »

Almost as convincing a level of argument as that oft seen in Youtube comments.

I don't really understand your point? I am simply linking to a forum of average Muslims so people can build an opinion on their thinking, I believe it to be a good way of doing this, for example if someone asked me about Irish culture and opinion and I recommend they visited boards.ie they would build the opinion that on average the Irish are pretty liberal, pro gay rights and gender equality by reading the opinions of thousands of people without being influenced by bias. There are several Muslim forums, ummah forum, sunni forum etc and I have read them, as I recommend others do, literally thousands of posts and I have came to the opinion that on average Muslims are homophobic, conservitive and sexest.

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

I don't really understand your point? I am simply linking to a forum of average Muslims .

How do you know they're in any way representative?

gallag wrote: »

so people can build an opinion on their thinking, I believe it to be a good way of doing this, for example if someone asked me about Irish culture and opinion and I recommend they visited boards.ie they would build the opinion that on average the Irish are pretty liberal, pro gay rights and gender equality by reading the opinions of thousands of people without being influenced by bias. There are several Muslim forums, ummah forum, sunni forum etc and I have read them, as I recommend others do, literally thousands of posts and I have came to the opinion that on average Muslims are homophobic, conservitive and sexest.

So you go to religious forums and discover conservative religious views.....shocking.

What has all this to do with the OP btw?

Not a NSA agent

gallag wrote: »

I don't really understand your point? I am simply linking to a forum of average Muslims so people can build an opinion on their thinking, I believe it to be a good way of doing this, for example if someone asked me about Irish culture and opinion and I recommend they visited boards.ie they would build the opinion that on average the Irish are pretty liberal, pro gay rights and gender equality by reading the opinions of thousands of people without being influenced by bias. There are several Muslim forums, ummah forum, sunni forum etc and I have read them, as I recommend others do, literally thousands of posts and I have came to the opinion that on average Muslims are homophobic, conservitive and sexest.

A muslim forum is probably not going to contain average muslims. Head over to the Christianity forum here and tell us how liberal and pro gay rights Ireland is based on it. Im sure there are plenty of muslims who would support those things but if they are anything like Christians, their forums are going to be made up of the more conservative members.

gallag

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

A muslim forum is probably not going to contain average muslims. Head over to the Christianity forum here and tell us how liberal and pro gay rights Ireland is based on it. Im sure there are plenty of muslims who would support those things but if they are anything like Christians, their forums are going to be made up of the more conservative members.

Your post leads me to believe you never clicked the link? They are not religious only forums but forums for people that are Muslim, they are just like boards.ie with different sections including religious sections like boards, unfortunately there would be a lot more condoning the murder of gays etc on the Muslim boards than there would on the Christianity section on these boards.

What this boils down to is people like Nodin etc want to tell people how Muslims think, personally I believe that you are better researching it for yourself! There are loads of Islamic/Muslim oriented discussion boards and after reading literally thousands of individual opinions of Muslims who are advanced enough to own/operate a computer, speak English and have Internet access and I can say with certainty than in general Muslims are very conservitive, homophobic and misogynist as well as having significant support for attacks like seen in France and Tunisia.

gallag

Nodin wrote: »

So you go to religious forums and discover conservative religious views.....shocking.

Hang on, I linked to a thread where people were justifying the murder of tourists in Tunisia, saying they were glad the filth were wiped from the beach etc and you call that expressing conservative religious views?......shocking.

Could you perhaps link to any western/Christian majority forums were such views are found?

donaghs

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

A muslim forum is probably not going to contain average muslims. Head over to the Christianity forum here and tell us how liberal and pro gay rights Ireland is based on it. Im sure there are plenty of muslims who would support those things but if they are anything like Christians, their forums are going to be made up of the more conservative members.

Actually you should head over and have a look (link below). You're unlikely to find the any level of hatred even close to whats on ummah.com. And, seriously, are you suggesting people on the boards.ie Christianity forum are advocating or supportive of violence against gay people?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333

Nodin wrote: »

Almost as convincing a level of argument as that oft seen in Youtube comments.

If that many people support a Death Cult like ISIL for reasons of religious convictions oo Youtube, that's also worrying. But I think a debate on a mainstream Islamic forum is different from random youtube postings - where insults and mockery are the norm.


I think Ali Selim is trying to position himself as true spokesman for Islam in Ireland. In response to the Blanchardstown Iman's anti-ISIL march, which is all over the news. Ali Selim doesn't just say he not in favour of it. He quite witheringly says he wasn't aware of it.
"If the biggest Islamic organisation (Clonskeagh) is not aware of it, what does it mean?". In other words we (me) are top dog.

In response to the other Iman's concerns about radicalisation of Irish Muslims. Ali Selim states "there's no such thing", "it's not happening", and goes onto describe the unique conditions in Ireland which means Muslims here are uniquely invulnerable to the lure of ISIL. Which is nonsense given the reports of Irish Muslims in Syria, and the confirmations of deaths there.

Not only does it seem that Ali Selim is positioning himself as the top dog spokesman, if you look at his comments on Irish eduction there are some worrying outcomes:
(1) He's saying that a country should change its school system to be more "inclusive" of Islam. Of course, how these changes impact on those of other other faiths, or none, he has nothing to add.
(2) As pointed out by Atheist Ireland, they "invites the two publicly funded National schools under the patronage of the Islamic Foundation of Ireland to lead the way by including the children of atheists and secularists in their schools."
http://atheist.ie/2014/09/dr-ali-selim-of-the-islamic-cultural-centre-calls-for-revolution-of-inclusivity-in-irish-schools-and-an-upheaval-in-irish-educational-perspectives/
The ban on stringed instruments and dancing could be added to this too.
Unless perhaps he's an intolerant hypocrite, "inclusivity" when it suits him only.

This is the most interesting I noticed from his comments:
(3) He says Muslims do the following things, so schools should implment them. This of course ignores that fact that not all Muslims behave in the way that he dictates. (I recall Dr Omar Bhamjee, Ireland first Mulism TD, considered himself a Muslim but also said he'd had a few pints of Guinness over the years). Ali Selim is in effect telling Irish Muslims how to be a "proper Muslim".

"[Islam] forbids pre- and extramarital sexual relations, whereas RSE perceives sexual relations outside wedlock as part of normal practices."
(so do most versions of Christianity - but this sexual education, not religious education?)

"[Irish schools should] employ a female PE teacher and provide students with a sports hall not accessible to men during times when girls are at play. They should also not be visible to men while at play."

"If music is performed using non-tuneable percussion instruments such as drums, most Muslims will have no problem."

"Physical contact between members of the opposite sex who can be legally married is forbidden in Islam."

“any form of raffle is strictly forbidden in Islam”.

and so on.

Akrasia

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Wondered how long it would take for you to pop out of the woodwork.
I'm interested in what I hear from others, which is the deafening silence from the Muslim leadership, if such a thing exists. They are more interested in promoting Ramadan than condemning terrorism.
Less of dropping on their knees to pray and a little more action in condemning terrorists. Simple as that.
Not to do so strongly suggests approval.

The first I've heard about this march is the article you linked to, in the independent trying to spin the march condemning ISIS into some kind of evidence that muslims support ISIS. The media are playing a very negative role in this issue, they're stoking fear and making extremism appear more normalised than it actually is.

The fact is that the media don't care when a muslim condermns ISIS, but will turn any extremist statement into a front page headline.

The muslim community in Ireland are mostly appalled of what is happening with the extremist fringes of Islam. I think the March is a very good idea, and I think there should be a global day of protest by all muslims in the world against the extremism and terrorism and medieval attitudes of ISIS and Al Qaeda Boku Haram and the Taliban and the Islamic Brotherhood and the other violent islamicist movements.

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

.......................

What this boils down to is people like Nodin etc want to tell people how Muslims think, personally I believe that you are better researching it for yourself! There are loads of Islamic/Muslim oriented discussion boards and after reading literally thousands of individual opinions of Muslims who are advanced enough to own/operate a computer, speak English and have Internet access and I can say with certainty than in general Muslims are very conservitive, homophobic and misogynist as well as having significant support for attacks like seen in France and Tunisia.

emmmm........

Not a NSA agent

gallag wrote: »

Your post leads me to believe you never clicked the link? They are not religious only forums but forums for people that are Muslim, they are just like boards.ie with different sections including religious sections like boards, unfortunately there would be a lot more condoning the murder of gays etc on the Muslim boards than there would on the Christianity section on these boards.

What this boils down to is people like Nodin etc want to tell people how Muslims think, personally I believe that you are better researching it for yourself! There are loads of Islamic/Muslim oriented discussion boards and after reading literally thousands of individual opinions of Muslims who are advanced enough to own/operate a computer, speak English and have Internet access and I can say with certainty than in general Muslims are very conservitive, homophobic and misogynist as well as having significant support for attacks like seen in France and Tunisia.

Ummah: The Online Muslims Community.

Its a website aimed at muslims with its main forums being:

Ramadhan Forum
Ramadhan Forum - The Countdown....

The Lounge
Any Other General Subjects fits in here!

Marriage
Marriage In Islam

Islamic Lifestyle & Social Issues
Any issues pertaining to Lifestyle, Health, Social issues. Discuss medicine, food and general social life.

Competitions and Contests
Competitions and Contests

Its quite clearly aimed at religious people. I would never look at a forum aimed at a certain religion and think that the general discussion section is going to be clear of religion, I would be very disappointed.

Boards wouldnt be a fan of condoning the killing of others in general but nobody would look at the Christianity forum and think that Ireland must be a really tolerant place based on it. Kill them? No. Reduce their rights? Happily.

You complain that there are people telling us what Muslims think and then you go on to tell me that in general muslims are conservative, homophobic and misogynist.

donaghs wrote: »

Actually you should head over and have a look (link below). You're unlikely to find the any level of hatred even close to whats on ummah.com. And, seriously, are you suggesting people on the boards.ie Christianity forum are advocating or supportive of violence against gay people?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333

Nope, but I wouldnt come away think Ireland was tolerant or liberal from reading there.

gallag

Nodin wrote: »

emmmm........

As usual your reply is short on substance at bends context, to make it clear for you I recommend people do their own research and also gave my opinion on what I discovered, how can you constantly avoid the main points of the conversation and just throw out your one liners?

gallag

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

Ummah: The Online Muslims Community.

Its a website aimed at muslims with its main forums being:

Ramadhan Forum
Ramadhan Forum - The Countdown....

The Lounge
Any Other General Subjects fits in here!

Marriage
Marriage In Islam

Islamic Lifestyle & Social Issues
Any issues pertaining to Lifestyle, Health, Social issues. Discuss medicine, food and general social life.

Competitions and Contests
Competitions and Contests

Its quite clearly aimed at religious people. I would never look at a forum aimed at a certain religion and think that the general discussion section is going to be clear of religion, I would be very disappointed.

Boards wouldnt be a fan of condoning the killing of others in general but nobody would look at the Christianity forum and think that Ireland must be a really tolerant place based on it. Kill them? No. Reduce their rights? Happily.

You complain that there are people telling us what Muslims think and then you go on to tell me that in general muslims are conservative, homophobic and misogynist.



Nope, but I wouldnt come away think Ireland was tolerant or liberal from reading there.

Islam is not just a religion, it's a way of life, you cannot as a Muslim separate your religion from your home/social life, I am sure if you ask if that's true in the Islam section of this forum it will be confirmed. There are loads of Islam forums online and every one of them paints the same picture.

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

As usual your reply is short on substance at bends context, to make it clear for you I recommend people do their own research and also gave my opinion on what I discovered, how can you constantly avoid the main points of the conversation and just throw out your one liners?

I've already covered the main points of the conversation re the OP. Now we're looking at the silly argument over a religious forum supposedly being representative of the muslim population and - in my last post - a somewhat humorous juxtaposition of contrary notions contained in a single post.

gallag

Nodin wrote: »

I've already covered the main points of the conversation re the OP. Now we're looking at the silly argument over a religious forum supposedly being representative of the muslim population and - in my last post - a somewhat humorous juxtaposition of contrary notions contained in a single post.

So are you saying you only discuss things that directly relate only to the topic in the op? Is this a new rule for you or is it only to avoid discussing things that are uncomfortable for you?

Also, they are Islamic forums, not religious forums, do you understand the concept of ummah? there are loads of them, remember muslims say Islam is a lifestyle, not merely a religion, anyway, even if you want to paint them as strictly religious forums that only paint a light on religious muslims could you tell me what percentage of muslims you believe to be non religious?

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

So are you saying you only discuss things that directly relate only to the topic in the op? Is this a new rule for you or is it only to avoid discussing things that are uncomfortable for you?

It's fairly clear what I meant.

gallag wrote: »

Also, they are Islamic forums, not religious forums,

......and Islam is a ......?

gallag wrote: »

do you understand the concept of ummah? there are loads of them, remember muslims say Islam is a lifestyle, not merely a religion, anyway, even if you want to paint them as strictly religious forums that only paint a light on religious muslims could you tell me what percentage of muslims you believe to be non religious?

Here? Not a bogs notion. In France about 67% are non-practicing.
http://plus.lefigaro.fr/note/how-does-france-count-its-muslim-population-20110407-435643

And of course they are divided into Sunni, Shia and others.

DarkyHughes

So she doesn't want to march what's the big deal? I'm a Sinn Fein member & I don't always feel like marching at every single local march & there's several of them in Bray every year.