Ali Selim refuses to march in Muslim march against Isis

SILVAMAN · 05-07-2015 12:11pm #1

So the mask slips off even further. Today's Indo reports that there's a split amongst Muslims in this country, with the Clonskeagh Mosque and their pals claiming that such a march is "inappropriate".
Believing that there is no radicalisation of youth in Ireland, Ali Selim of the Clonskeagh Mosque appears to believe that there is no need for such a march.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/muslim-leaders-split-over-planned-is-protest-march-31352219.html

I wonder how Selim felt about Lorna Carty and Laurence and Martina Hayes who were slaughtered at the hands of ISIS? Or for that matter, the tens of thousands of innocents beheaded, burned alive, thrown off roofs, drowned.
An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.
Who was it that said 'by their fruits ye shall know them, not by their disclaimers.

johnnyskeleton · 05-07-2015 4:39pm

Im not sure that refusing to support someone else's initiaitive or not wanting to march in the streets suggests any implicit approval of IS or that a mask has somehow slipped and revealed a hidden motive

One More Toy · 05-07-2015 4:40pm

Despicable, time to send him on a plane to Syria

desertcircus · 05-07-2015 4:45pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

So the mask slips off even further. Today's Indo reports that there's a split amongst Muslims in this country, with the Clonskeagh Mosque and their pals claiming that such a march is "inappropriate".
Believing that there is no radicalisation of youth in Ireland, Ali Selim of the Clonskeagh Mosque appears to believe that there is no need for such a march.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/muslim-leaders-split-over-planned-is-protest-march-31352219.html

I wonder how Selim felt about Lorna Carty and Laurence and Martina Hayes who were slaughtered at the hands of ISIS? Or for that matter, the tens of thousands of innocents beheaded, burned alive, thrown off roofs, drowned.
An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.
Who was it that said 'by their fruits ye shall know them, not by their disclaimers.

Seriously? The article you linked to implies that Selim wasn't actually aware of the planned march at all, and he points out that the ICCI have condemned ISIL "in print, on websites, before their congregations, on the radio and television". Not to mention the fact that it's entirely possible for someone to hold the position that a march isn't the right approach.

SILVAMAN · 05-07-2015 5:43pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Seriously? The article you linked to implies that Selim wasn't actually aware of the planned march at all, and he points out that the ICCI have condemned ISIL "in print, on websites, before their congregations, on the radio and television". Not to mention the fact that it's entirely possible for someone to hold the position that a march isn't the right approach.

He's now aware of it. Let him get out and do the western thing which is to march and be seen to show his disgust.

Sand · 05-07-2015 6:22pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

He's now aware of it. Let him get out and do the western thing which is to march and be seen to show his disgust.

Will you be marching?

SILVAMAN · 05-07-2015 7:16pm

Sand wrote: »

Will you be marching?

I'm not a Muslim-in fact I'm someone most likely ISIS would throw from a roof.
The aim of the march is to show that Muslims, a group whos silence in the face of Islamicc terrorism has been deafening.

Nodin · 05-07-2015 8:01pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim-in fact I'm someone most likely ISIS would throw from a roof.
The aim of the march is to show that Muslims, a group whos silence in the face of Islamicc terrorism has been deafening.

But, as Selim pointed out, they haven't been silent. Nor have the other grouping who are organising the march.

SILVAMAN wrote: »

He's now aware of it. Let him get out and do the western thing which is to march and be seen to show his disgust.

You evidently haven't noticed the numerous posters who disagree with protests and generally consider them a waste of time.

SILVAMAN · 05-07-2015 8:46pm

Nodin wrote: »

But, as Selim pointed out, they haven't been silent. Nor have the other grouping who are organising the march.

You evidently haven't noticed the numerous posters who disagree with protests and generally consider them a waste of time.

Wondered how long it would take for you to pop out of the woodwork.
I'm interested in what I hear from others, which is the deafening silence from the Muslim leadership, if such a thing exists. They are more interested in promoting Ramadan than condemning terrorism.
Less of dropping on their knees to pray and a little more action in condemning terrorists. Simple as that.
Not to do so strongly suggests approval.

oscarBravo · 05-07-2015 9:08pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Not to do so strongly suggests approval.

So someone has to protest in terms set by you, or else be considered supporters of ISIS?

Get over yourself.

SILVAMAN · 05-07-2015 9:12pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Get over yourself.

Excuse me?

oscarBravo · 05-07-2015 9:22pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Excuse me?

Did I stutter?

Whosthis · 05-07-2015 9:36pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

So the mask slips off even further. Today's Indo reports that there's a split amongst Muslims in this country, with the Clonskeagh Mosque and their pals claiming that such a march is "inappropriate".
Believing that there is no radicalisation of youth in Ireland, Ali Selim of the Clonskeagh Mosque appears to believe that there is no need for such a march.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/muslim-leaders-split-over-planned-is-protest-march-31352219.html

I wonder how Selim felt about Lorna Carty and Laurence and Martina Hayes who were slaughtered at the hands of ISIS? Or for that matter, the tens of thousands of innocents beheaded, burned alive, thrown off roofs, drowned.
An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.
Who was it that said 'by their fruits ye shall know them, not by their disclaimers.

Did you even read the article? Or do you just take any opportunity to post your anti Islamic bull****. At no point in that article does Selim refuse to partake in the march. He states that he was unaware of the march and would need more information on it before deciding to join it.

Nodin · 05-07-2015 11:21pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Wondered how long it would take for you to pop out of the woodwork.
I'm interested in what I hear from others, which is the deafening silence from the Muslim leadership, if such a thing exists. They are more interested in promoting Ramadan than condemning terrorism..

But as has been pointed out to you, they have not been silent on the issue. What leadership or representative bodies exist have condemned terrorism before and IS in particular.

Evidently your concept of "deafening silence" is not the one most of us would hold
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/03/12/

http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277631/prominent-muslim-sheikh-issues-fatwa-against-isis-violence

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Muslim-cleric-in-Kerala-issues-fatwa-against-ISIS-jihadists-sell-several-dozens-of-Yazidi-women/articleshow/41281217.cms

http://allafrica.com/stories/201309130516.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/janardhan.php?articleid=4064

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Not to do so strongly suggests approval.

So you've now shifted the goalposts, from a stance where the "muslim leadership" are maintaining a "deafening silence" (which is untrue in any event) to demanding 'strong' condemnation - strong undoubtedly being defined as something other than what they actually say, whenever they do so.

johnnyskeleton · 05-07-2015 11:30pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Wondered how long it would take for you to pop out of the woodwork.

Mod: Lets not go down that road, eh? Play the ball not the man.

That goes for eveybody

Junkyard Tom · 06-07-2015 12:15am

SILVAMAN wrote: »

An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood.

Are you saying the guy advocates mass murder or are you just afflicted by a histrionic disposition?

Victor · 06-07-2015 12:58am

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I'm interested in what I hear from others, which is the deafening silence from the Muslim leadership, if such a thing exists.

There is are different sects in Islam, just as there are different sects in Christianity.

There is no single leadership across Islam and there is no hierarchical leadership in any of those sects similar to the one that the Roman Catholic Church has. The Imam system is more like the unaffiliated / independent pastor system that is popular in parts of Christianity in North America and Africa.

Perhaps you could go off and study the various concepts of 'Muslim leadership' and come back when you decide which one applies.

Or maybe you hold Ian Paisley responsible for paedophile priests in Kerry?

SILVAMAN · 06-07-2015 5:59am

Nodin wrote: »

But as has been pointed out to you, they have not been silent on the issue. What leadership or representative bodies exist have condemned terrorism before and IS in particular.

Evidently your concept of "deafening silence" is not the one most of us would hold
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/03/12/

http://www.npr.org/2014/09/25/351277631/prominent-muslim-sheikh-issues-fatwa-against-isis-violence

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Muslim-cleric-in-Kerala-issues-fatwa-against-ISIS-jihadists-sell-several-dozens-of-Yazidi-women/articleshow/41281217.cms

http://allafrica.com/stories/201309130516.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/janardhan.php?articleid=4064

So you've now shifted the goalposts, from a stance where the "muslim leadership" are maintaining a "deafening silence" (which is untrue in any event) to demanding 'strong' condemnation - strong undoubtedly being defined as something other than what they actually say, whenever they do so.

Did the Clonskeagh Mosque issue a statement on the Tunisia attack?

SILVAMAN · 06-07-2015 6:02am

Victor wrote: »

There is are different sects in Islam, just as there are different sects in Christianity.

There is no single leadership across Islam and there is no hierarchical leadership in any of those sects similar to the one that the Roman Catholic Church has. The Imam system is more like the unaffiliated / independent pastor system that is popular in parts of Christianity in North America and Africa.

Perhaps you could go off and study the various concepts of 'Muslim leadership' and come back when you decide which one applies.

Or maybe you hold Ian Paisley responsible for paedophile priests in Kerry?

I'll wait to see how you feel once there's been a terrorist attack by Islamic fundamentalists in this country, although some would say it has happened after the murder of Irish citizens in Tunisia.

johnnyskeleton · 06-07-2015 9:15am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Are you saying the guy advocates mass murder or are you just afflicted by a histrionic disposition?

Mod: Final on thread warning. Play nice

johnnyskeleton · 06-07-2015 9:19am

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I'll wait to see how you feel once there's been a terrorist attack by Islamic fundamentalists in this country, although some would say it has happened after the murder of Irish citizens in Tunisia.

If a terrorist attack by a minority extremist turns people against all Muslims, then the extremists have won. They want to polarise the West vs Islam dichotomy. In reality most Muslims severely dislike the extremists, much like most christians dislike the Westboro Baptist Church etc.

Nodin · 06-07-2015 11:57am

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Did the Clonskeagh Mosque issue a statement on the Tunisia attack?

Why are you asking me? You should know whether they did or did not, given the vehemence of your stance on the 'deafening silence' of muslim 'leadership'. Wouldn't it be rather strange to discover they had, given your earlier statements?
http://www.islamireland.ie/

It would be as if you were just sounding off uninformed opinions containing the worst kind of stereotypes.

We might want to define for the purposes of this thread who and what are referred to by the terms muslim leadership (what state/states they belong to) etc. I ask this because - despite having produced examples of 'muslim leadership' from all corners of the globe condemning IS and others, you seem to have jumped into the car ignoring them, and headed straight to Clonskeagh.

wes · 06-07-2015 3:37pm

The OPs post is very strange, as IS considers anyone who hasn't pledged allegiance to there so called "caliph" as being non-Muslim, and have killed people for that. So unless Mr Selim has pledged allegiance to IS, then I see no reason for him to have to condemn them anymore than the next person, as IS sees anyone who isn't with them, as being against them.

ressem · 06-07-2015 10:41pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If a terrorist attack by a minority extremist turns people against all Muslims, then the extremists have won. They want to polarise the West vs Islam dichotomy. In reality most Muslims severely dislike the extremists, much like most christians dislike the Westboro Baptist Church etc.

In Nigeria and Kuwait, these extremists are bombing mosques during the month of Ramadan killing as many people (muslim, at prayer) as the Tunisia killings.

It's a footnote on RTE.

An organisation like the Irish Council of Imams which incorporates Shia and Sunni Imams is as likely to be a target of extremists as any irish christian organisation.

Son Of A Vidic · 07-07-2015 1:16am

SILVAMAN wrote: »

..An Ireland under Selim would. I believe, be drowning in blood...

I believe you should go and actually read the article you posted.

valor rorghulis · 07-07-2015 11:11am

I've heard anecdotally (and acknowledge how limited that is) from liberal Muslims that Clonskeagh is seen as the "hardline" mosque. That there was a lot of anti-Gaddafi, anti-Assad & pro Egyptian Muslim brotherhood sentiment

Now its a massive mosque, majority of attendees probably aren't even political.

I don't agree with the OP's hypothesis that Ireland would be drowning in blood under Selim, and I think its a scaremongering post. However I'm left wondering is Selim really not taking part in the march because he doesn't want to risk offending the hardliners/sneaking regarders in his flock. The kind of types who would like Sharia law in Ireland but not through terrorism.

I don't know enough about the situation at Clonskeagh to nail my opinions to a post, but its simply not credible that the head of the largest mosque in Ireland was "not aware" of the march

donaghs · 07-07-2015 5:00pm

There may be some power politics at play here as Dr Salem is clearly choosing to ignore the other Iman, and sit on the fence. Some of his statements are a bit suspect:

"Dr Ali Salem believes there is no "extremism" in Ireland".
There have always been many and various shades of "extremists" before Islam came to Ireland, and its very hard to believe there's not a single extremist among Irish Muslims. At least 3 Irish Muslims have died so far fighting against Assad. Which would naturally mean more have actually travelled there.

Dr Al-Qadri: ""I do not know anyone who has joined Islamic State but I have spoken to a few individuals that have expressed their wish to join Isil," he said. In the end, they didn't travel."
In my view, anyone who'd consider joining ISIL is an extremist. If you don't believe that just have a read about ISIL.

Dr Salem: "Radicalisation" of Muslims just won't take off in Ireland because, thanks to its neutrality and history, it doesn't have "the right environment" to allow extremism to flourish. "It can't happen."
Basically an outright denial. Ridiculous. People in Ireland can be "radicalised" to join various causes, whether the Spanish civil war (most actually went with O'Duffy to support Franco on their religious-themed crusade), or even the dozen or so that fought in Croatia/Bosnia in the early 90s.

SILVAMAN · 07-07-2015 8:09pm

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I believe you should go and actually read the article you posted.

I refer youto Selim's interview with Miriam O'Callaghanin the wake of the Charlie Hebdo terror.
He threatened our right to freedom of expression, and refused to answer O'Callaghan when she put it to him that he wanted the laws of this country changed to suit his beliefs.
There is no question in my mind but that there is something fundamentally sisister about the people who run the Clonskeagh Mosque. What they desire is in direct opposition to western democratic values. I will call it as I see it.
When I see young Muslim immigrants watching terrorist training videos over several weeks, in a small town internet cafe, it's my duty to report it. That I have done. When a Muslim internet store owner challenges me, a customer, because I have a Jewish dating site on the computer, and attempts to pull me off the chair so as to close the page, I'll defend myself and read him the riot act. This has also happened.
No, I don't believe all muslims support ISIS-far from it. But when the largrst Mosque in the state claims it hasn't heard of a march to denounce Islamist extremism; that Irish youth are not being radicalised; and that there is no need for such a march, that's what I call blowing smoke up my ass.

SILVAMAN · 07-07-2015 8:12pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If a terrorist attack by a minority extremist turns people against all Muslims, then the extremists have won. They want to polarise the West vs Islam dichotomy. In reality most Muslims severely dislike the extremists, much like most christians dislike the Westboro Baptist Church etc.

With the westboro baptist church, the saying "sticks and stones, etc." comes to mind, and it would appear to be working.
I doubt that such a tactic would work with ISIS.

expectationlost · 07-07-2015 9:57pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Did the Clonskeagh Mosque issue a statement on the Tunisia attack?

http://islamireland.ie/news/icci-statement-regarding-recent-events-in-tunisia-france/

The Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland fervently condemns the atrocious acts of terrorism perpetrated on innocent victims in Tunisia and France. We at the ICCI stand with all of Ireland in the condemnation of unjustified killings of the innocent.

and

Dr Ali Selim, spokesman for the Clonskeagh Mosque in Dublin last night told the Irish Mirror: “The Islamic centre expresses its condemnation for any crimes perpetrated against innocent people.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/tunisian-terror-attack-tragic-irish-5966230

Nodin · 07-07-2015 11:05pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

I refer youto Selim's interview with Miriam O'Callaghanin the wake of the Charlie Hebdo terror.
He threatened our right to freedom of expression, and refused to answer O'Callaghan when she put it to him that he wanted the laws of this country changed to suit his beliefs.
There is no question in my mind but that there is something fundamentally sisister about the people who run the Clonskeagh Mosque. What they desire is in direct opposition to western democratic values. I will call it as I see it.
.

...and will do so regardless of the facts and without research, so it would appear.

SILVAMAN wrote: »

When I see young (.............) happened..

While these anecdotes may well be true, I'm not sure what they have to do with the thrust of the OP or your other statements.

SILVAMAN wrote: »

No, I don't believe all muslims support ISIS-far from it. But when the largrst Mosque in the state claims it hasn't heard of a march to denounce Islamist extremism; that Irish youth are not being radicalised; and that there is no need for such a march, that's what I call blowing smoke up my ass.

So, where a large Mosque in a religion with no central authority as such is not (a) all-knowing and (b)somebody there has opinions who differ to yours they are "blowing smoke up your ass" - ie "being evasive". This strikes me as yet another shift of the goal posts, particularily in light of your refusal to even acknowledge how wrong you were on the "deafening silence" of muslims generally and the Clonskeagh mosque specifically.

Ali Selim refuses to march in Muslim march against Isis

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