The new, vicious fight

Daith

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Roughly 15,000 second trimester abortions in the England annually is not "rare" and the reasons for them being carried out are not "generally" for solid medical reasons either..

Interesting. Can you provide sources for the reasons of these abortions? Or any data? Thanks.

rainbow kirby

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/319460/Abortion_Statistics__England_and_Wales_2013.pdf

92% under 13 weeks. 0.1% after 24 weeks. Go nuts.

LorMal

8% over 13 weeks. 8 % of 185,000 abortions. 14,800.

volchitsa

LorMal wrote: »

8% over 13 weeks. 8 % of 185,000 abortions. 14,800.

That's pretty rare, especially as those figures count early 2nd trimester along with third trimester as though they were the same thing.

In reality that 8% is actually a steep curve, with very few abortions occurring past 16 weeks, and as has been pointed out, those are almost invariably for serious medical reasons concerning the mother or due to FFA, some of which can only be diagnosed/confirmed mid second trimester.

Another thing that various statistics, especially from the U.S., show is strong evidence that making early abortions more difficult to access is a major cause of late abortions. The number doesn't drop significantly, it just delays availability, especially for the most vulnerable women.

zeffabelli

volchitsa wrote: »

That's pretty rare, especially as those figures count early 2nd trimester along with third trimester as though they were the same thing.

In reality that 8% is actually a steep curve, with very few abortions occurring past 16 weeks, and as has been pointed out, those are almost invariably for serious medical reasons concerning the mother or due to FFA, some of which can only be diagnosed/confirmed mid second trimester.

Another thing that various statistics, especially from the U.S., show is strong evidence that making early abortions more difficult to access is a major cause of late abortions. The number doesn't drop significantly, it just delays availability, especially for the most vulnerable women.

Especially if you have to travel.... get time off work...make childcare arrangements....prolongs it...

LorMal

zeffabelli wrote: »

Especially if you have to travel.... get time off work...make childcare arrangements....prolongs it...

You make a strong case for mobile abortion clinics. A 'while you wait' service would do a bomb. All major credit cards accepted. No questions asked. Environmentally friendly disposal bags.

lazygal

LorMal wrote: »

You make a strong case for mobile abortion clinics. A 'while you wait' service would do a bomb. All major credit cards accepted. No questions asked. Environmentally friendly disposal bags.

Or the abortion pill administered as early as possible. It is an essential medicine after all.

volchitsa

lazygal wrote: »

Or the abortion pill administered as early as possible. It is an essential medicine after all.

And after all, women have to dispose of similar amounts of menstrual waste every month. I wonder whether Lormal ever takes any interest in how environmentally friendly that disposal is? For some reason I feel sure he doesn't.

lazygal

volchitsa wrote: »

And after all, women have to dispose of similar amounts of menstrual waste every month. I wonder whether Lormal ever takes any interest in how environmentally friendly that disposal is? For some reason I feel sure he doesn't.

Some people use mooncups or washable pads.

volchitsa

lazygal wrote: »

Some people use mooncups or washable pads.

Mooncups are fantastic. Washable pads - no thanks! But it seems to be an age thing, I see younger women than I seem to be adopting them. I find them a bit icky, tbf.

frostyjacks

Eurghh. Unfollowing.

lazygal

frostyjacks wrote: »

Eurghh. Unfollowing.

But you're so interested in women's reproductive rights and systems. Welcome to the world of menstrual cycles.

NachoBusiness

rainbow kirby wrote: »

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/319460/Abortion_Statistics__England_and_Wales_2013.pdf

92% under 13 weeks. 0.1% after 24 weeks. Go nuts.

That's right, like I said: "roughly 15,000 second trimester abortions". Was this above supposed to dispute that figure?

volchitsa wrote: »

That's pretty rare, especially as those figures count early 2nd trimester along with third trimester as though they were the same thing.

In reality that 8% is actually a steep curve, with very few abortions occurring past 16 weeks, and as has been pointed out, those are almost invariably for serious medical reasons concerning the mother or due to FFA, some of which can only be diagnosed/confirmed mid second trimester.

Your second paragraph here grossly undermines the first.

In any case, these numbers, no matter how you butter 'em or sugar coat 'em (by labeling them rare) are disgusting. It sickens me how people can be so trivial about ending the life of developing human babies. We were all once at that stage of life and we as humans should pay them are a little more respect than to speak of them as if they are nothing, they are far from that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSmVxh4MM7Y

Second Trimester: The Kicking Fetus

Inside her womb, the rapid activity continues. Although the mother may not be able to feel it yet, the fetus now kicks and moves. Its head -- which just a few weeks ago dwarfed the rest of its body -- is now more proportional. A fine hair called lanugo covers its body. The kidneys and urinary tract start to produce urine and release it into the amniotic fluid. The liver begins secreting bile, and the spleen begins to aid in the production of red blood cells.

By week 15, the fetus is around five inches long and weighs about two ounces. Although its eyelids are fused shut, its eyes are now sensitive to light. Between weeks 16 and 20, the fetus begins to hear and may even be able to hear the sound of its mother's voice. It can frown, squint, and make other facial expressions. The fetus' scalp is sprouting tiny hair buds, its skeleton is hardening, and millions of tiny neurons in its brain help its muscles move. Its tiny heart pumps about 25 quarts of blood each day. Its reproductive organs are forming. If the fetus is a girl, her ovaries are beginning to produce the millions of eggs that she will possess for her entire lifetime. During this period, the mother may start to experience "quickening" -- feeling her tiny fetus kick.

volchitsa

frostyjacks wrote: »

Eurghh. Unfollowing.

What's the difference? Have you lost your interest in female physiology all of a sudden?

S.O

I have made my views known on past threads that I think abortion should only be legalised in limited circumstances such as in cases of rape, or to save the life of the mother.

The rally for life last Saturday, just a thought and a point of observation, the recent cuts to lone parents payments, I can,t help but notice a lot who would argue against abortion no matter what the circumstances , ( think of the children etc ) have being silent on the savage cuts lone parents have faced, think of the children also when a single lone parent has less money to provide because of cuts to payments.

kylith

S.O wrote: »

I have made my views known on past threads that I think abortion should only be legalised in limited circumstances such as in cases of rape, or to save the life of the mother.

The rally for life last Saturday, just a thought and a point of observation, the recent cuts to lone parents payments, I can,t help but notice a lot who would argue against abortion no matter what the circumstances , ( think of the children etc ) have being silent on the savage cuts lone parents have faced, think of the children also when a single lone parent has less money to provide because of cuts to payments.

It does seem that while it's 'birth at any cost' once birth has been achieved their interest wanes.

lanos

frostyjacks wrote: »

If the Brits all jumped off a cliff, would you do the same?

are you a primary schoolteacher ?

LorMal

volchitsa wrote: »

And after all, women have to dispose of similar amounts of menstrual waste every month. I wonder whether Lormal ever takes any interest in how environmentally friendly that disposal is? For some reason I feel sure he doesn't.

Are you actually okay?

zeffabelli

LorMal wrote: »

You make a strong case for mobile abortion clinics. A 'while you wait' service would do a bomb. All major credit cards accepted. No questions asked. Environmentally friendly disposal bags.

You're all heart.

lazygal

LorMal wrote: »

Are you actually okay?

Are you? Why would environmentally friendly bags be needed for mobile abortion clinics? Early abortion is a heavy period. No plastic bags required.

volchitsa

LorMal wrote: »

Are you actually okay?

What's the problem with what I said? Are you uncomfortable with discussion about menstruation but happy to make "jokes" about bombs and abortion providers?

You're the one who made the comment about environmentally friendly disposal bags - do you imagine there would be much difference between the bleeding from an early pregnancy termination and from a heavy period? It's much the same.

So you bring one into the discussion, but ask me if I'm ok when I mention the other, which is far more commonplace for all women. Happens every month you know. For decades. Far more "waste disposal" involved, though I only mentioned it since you seem to take such an interest in these matters.

And then you suggest I'm the weird one???

NachoBusiness

volchitsa wrote: »

But you agree that it's not true, it would not be "better" for the pregnant woman, since the mere fact of pregnancy is a risk in itself?

Disingenuous nonsense. The average number of women that die annually in childbirth in the UK per 100,000 births, is 8 (in Ireland in is 6). No woman is choosing to have an abortion in the UK because they are scared that it might kill them. If they have an overriding health condition that precipitates that, fine, but that would be therapeutic.

zeffabelli

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Disingenuous nonsense. The average number of women that die annually in childbirth in the UK per 100,000 births, is 8 (in Ireland in is 6). No woman is choosing to have an abortion in the UK because they are scared that it might kill them. If they have an overriding health condition that precipitates that, fine, but that would be therapeutic.

You don't know that. The number might be low because they are having abortions.

Remember we now have a 30% c section rate and the max sections you can have are three, and that is if they were without complications.

We also now have forms of birth control, albeit rarely, which when they do fail cause ectopic pregnancies and other complications.

It may be icky, no it's not nice, but seriously it is a health issue and death is not the only consequence to fear.

lanos

volchitsa wrote: »

What's the difference? Have you lost your interest in female physiology all of a sudden?

our interest in female physiology doesn't extend from the bedroom to the bathroom.

volchitsa

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Disingenuous nonsense. The average number of women that die annually in childbirth in the UK per 100,000 births, is 8 (in Ireland in is 6). No woman is choosing to have an abortion in the UK because they are scared that it might kill them. If they have an overriding health condition that precipitates that, fine, but that would be therapeutic.

Irrelevant speculation. You don't know why individual women have abortions. I know someone who had several because she desperately wanted a baby, but each time her pregnancies led to uncontrollable hyperemesis (what the Duchess of York had). It can be life threatening, and the fact that she didn't wait until her life was actually at risk (because she was afraid of having to have a late term abortion) doesnt change the fact that her health was at risk from the pregnancy. Of course in Ireland she'd have had to wait and possibly been traumatized by a late second or even third trimester abortion - the kind that someone earlier claimed should be banned as being better "for all concerned".

More to the point here, the fact is that pregnancy is more dangerous than non pregnancy for the woman, and even late termination is safer than continuing to term. That's just a fact.

lazygal

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Disingenuous nonsense. The average number of women that die annually in childbirth in the UK per 100,000 births, is 8 (in Ireland in is 6). No woman is choosing to have an abortion in the UK because they are scared that it might kill them. If they have an overriding health condition that precipitates that, fine, but that would be therapeutic.

Do you think any of the 4,000 women travelling to other countries to kill the unborn might be doing so because continuing a pregnancy might result in their death but Ireland won't allow them to kill the unborn here? You can't get an abortion here if your health is at risk. Maybe women travel to kill the unborn because of health reasons, thereby skewing our maternal mortality rate. Also not dying while pregnant is a pretty low bar for measuring the relative.quality of maternity services.

LorMal

volchitsa wrote: »

What's the problem with what I said? Are you uncomfortable with discussion about menstruation but happy to make "jokes" about bombs and abortion providers?

You're the one who made the comment about environmentally friendly disposal bags - do you imagine there would be much difference between the bleeding from an early pregnancy termination and from a heavy period? It's much the same.

So you bring one into the discussion, but ask me if I'm ok when I mention the other, which is far more commonplace for all women. Happens every month you know. For decades. Far more "waste disposal" involved, though I only mentioned it since you seem to take such an interest in these matters.

And then you suggest I'm the weird one???

'bombs and abortion providers'???? I wrote (sarcastically) that a mobile abortion clinic 'would do a bomb'. That's an expression meaning it would make a fortune.
You know that but deliberately twist my meaning as if I was implying something about bombing abortion providers'.
Your hundreds and hundreds of (mostly hostile and aggressive) posts about this issue.......and I don't anyone really wants to hear about the contents of your fanny pads.

volchitsa

LorMal wrote: »

'bombs and abortion providers'???? I wrote (sarcastically) that a mobile abortion clinic 'would do a bomb'. That's an expression meaning it would make a fortune.
You know that but deliberately twist my meaning as if I was implying something about bombing abortion providers'.
Your hundreds and hundreds of (mostly hostile and aggressive) posts about this issue.......and I don't anyone really wants to hear about the contents of your fanny pads.

I'm aware of the expression. I don't think it was a a coincidence that you chose that rather than any of the other possible expressions for making a fortune. It certainly looked either deliberate, or to give you the benefit of the doubt, like a Freudian slip, in the non sexual use of that expression, given the history of bomb attacks on abortion clinics. At the very least it was an unfortunate choice of words - unless you have no problem with abortion providers being the target of violence of course.

As for the contents of sanitary towels, I'm at a loss as to why you think it suitable to make comments about the contents of sanitary towels after a medical abortion but not about the same contents with a normal period. Genuinely. You think the former is fair game for a joke albeit in poor taste, but the latter is just too disgusting for normal people (ie men!) to even read about, and that people who run with what was your comment originally need to be asked if they're "alright"?

lazygal

lazygal wrote: »

A question for those who don't want to change the current laws. What would happen in Ireland if women didn't have the right or ability to travel to avail of abortion services? Suppose the UK option disappeared, would women try to abort alone or in illegal clinics?

Mandatory murder charges should discourage that and a few convictions would stop it altogether. Amazing what the threat of 15 or 20 years in jail can do.

eviltwin

Lydia Unsightly Leg wrote: »

Mandatory murder charges should discourage that and a few convictions would stop it altogether. Amazing what the threat of 15 or 20 years in jail can do.

20 years in prison for having an abortion? I don't think even the hardliners on the pro life side would support that.