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The new, vicious fight

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    #332
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Daith


    Kev W wrote: »
    Not the same. Comparable in certain relevant respects.

    Indeed and I never argued that. Just that I can see why Amnesty would get involved in both.


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    #333
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I'm just not seeing how her rights were denied/abused. She had no right to an abortion. If it was such a travesty how come Ireland wasn't hauled before the ECHR?

    Give it time. Remember one of the other women who did go the ECHR lost" on a technicality : that she hadn't first exhausted all the legal ways open to her in Ireland to complain about her treatment.

    So that doesn't prove it wasn't an abuse. So in the meantime, how about you engage with what we know happened to her? If she was of unsound mind, how was it legal to subject her to unnecessary surgery just because she "consented"?


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    #334
    superelliptic
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭superelliptic


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    This is far more important than the marriage referendum and I say that as a gay person. It is going to get vicious, it will be an absolute nightmare. But it's necessary, it's got to be sorted out for once and for all, the women of Ireland can't keep paying such a terrible cost for the sake of politicians' job security.

    I don't think its just for politicians job security. I think its because after the nauseation that was the gay marriage referendum I don't think the public in the main have the stomach for another referendum that's going to be twice as vicious. Personally I'm happy to know that this particular can has been kicked down the road until after the elections.


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    #335
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    LorMal wrote: »
    What about Miss J?

    I'll take that as an admission that you can't participate meaningfully in this discussion. Maybe you should run off and join the children throwing pebbles over there, your posts are at about the same intellectual level.


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    #336
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Daith wrote: »
    Indeed and I never argued that. Just that I can see why Amnesty would get involved in both.

    From the AI website

    We are independent of any political ideology, economic interest or religion. We do not support or oppose any government or political system.

    I like that - it maintains a moral authority. Their heavily lobbying on one side of an important debate here worries me.
    That's my only point. (Again, I agree with their POV but I do not want their involvement in this).


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    #337
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I'll take that as an admission that you can't participate meaningfully in this discussion. Maybe you should run off and join the children throwing pebbles over there, your posts are at about the same intellectual level.

    Keep up the mud slinging, mis quoting and scorn. It's impressive stuff.


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    #338
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    superelliptic wrote: »
    I don't think its just for politicians job security. I think its because after the nauseation that was the gay marriage referendum I don't think the public in the main have the stomach for another referendum that's going to be twice as vicious. Personally I'm happy to know that this particular can has been kicked down the road until after the elections.

    Perhaps if you were likely to find yourself pregnant in the meantime, you might find that that would increase your sense of urgency. I find the idea of being pregnant in Ireland terrifying.


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    #339
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Perhaps if you were likely to find yourself pregnant in the meantime, you might find that that would increase your sense of urgency. I find the idea of being pregnant in Ireland terrifying.

    Nasty angry debaters like you are the reason lots of people want to run 1000 miles from an abortion referendum.


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    #340
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    LorMal wrote: »
    What about Miss J?

    Any woman of childbearing age in Ireland could be the next miss or ms J. Ireland is not a country I'm 100% happy about being pregnant in again. Being kept alive while my brain rots and I'm decomposing just because I'm pregnant isn't something I want my born children to have to witness.


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    #341
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    LorMal wrote: »
    Nasty angry debaters like you are the reason lots of people want to run 1000 miles from an abortion referendum.

    There's nothing nasty about stating that being pregnant in Ireland carries risks that being pregnant in other countries doesn't have.


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    #342
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    superelliptic wrote: »
    Personally I'm happy to know that this particular can has been kicked down the road until after the elections.

    I'm not. Every day that Article 40.3.3 remains part of the constitution increases the risk that another woman dies or suffers severe health consequences as a result of it and the hamfisted legislation which has been written based on it.


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    #343
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    lazygal wrote: »
    There's nothing nasty about stating that being pregnant in Ireland carries risks that being pregnant in other countries doesn't have.

    Ireland has an excellent standard of maternity care, better than can be found in many other western countries.


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    #344
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    lazygal wrote: »
    There's nothing nasty about stating that being pregnant in Ireland carries risks that being pregnant in other countries doesn't have.

    I agree.


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    #345
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Ireland has an excellent standard of maternity care, better than can be found in many other western countries.

    Why do quite a few hospitals refuse to do an anomaly scan at 20 weeks then? This is standard across the developed world.


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    #346
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Ireland has an excellent standard of maternity care, better than can be found in many other western countries.

    Have you been through it yourself? Other countries with abortion services freely available have the same or better care. Anyway, what do the relatively ok maternity services here have to do with women who don't want to avail.of them because they don't want to remain pregnant?


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    #347
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    lazygal wrote: »
    Have you been through it yourself? Other countries with abortion services freely available have the same or better care. Anyway, what do the relatively ok maternity services here have to do with women who don't want to avail.of them because they don't want to remain pregnant?

    See, this is the problem. Can we not agree that abortion is necessary in certain cases without agreeing to it being 'freely available'?


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    #348
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    LorMal wrote: »
    Can we not agree that abortion is necessary in certain cases without agreeing to it being 'freely available'?

    It should be a decision between a woman and her medical team at the end of the day.


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    #349
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    LorMal wrote: »
    See, this is the problem. Can we not agree that abortion is necessary in certain cases without agreeing to it being 'freely available'?

    Why shouldn't it be freely available? What circumstances it is ok to have an abortion? What should women in Ireland who don't want to remain pregnant be able to access? Or is compulsory gestation the only "choice" for all pregnant women unless they might die? Should the right to travel to avail of services where abortion is freely available be repealed, if the unborn have the right to life?


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    #350
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    A question for those who don't want to change the current laws. What would happen in Ireland if women didn't have the right or ability to travel to avail of abortion services? Suppose the UK option disappeared, would women try to abort alone or in illegal clinics?


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    #351
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Daith


    LorMal wrote: »
    I like that - it maintains a moral authority. Their heavily lobbying on one side of an important debate here worries me. .

    I think the "here" is the key thing. They're doing nothing here that they aren't doing in other countries. I'm quite sure other countries would complain about the heavy lobbing Amnesty does for one side of the issue.

    When it's not your country (like Syria) it's easy to go "Oh yeah Amnesty should be involved" but when it's here it's a political issue.


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    #352
    superelliptic
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭superelliptic


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Perhaps if you were likely to find yourself pregnant in the meantime, you might find that that would increase your sense of urgency. I find the idea of being pregnant in Ireland terrifying.

    Yeah maybe but I stand by my original point. The gay marriage ref is only just over and I think the majority of the country would be pissed off in the extreme if they had yet another vicious referendum ahead of them so soon.

    Regarding your fear of being pregnant in Ireland - Do you mean a fear of unplanned pregnancy or just in general?


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    #353
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    superelliptic wrote: »
    Regarding your fear of being pregnant in Ireland - Do you mean a fear of unplanned pregnancy or just in general?

    Even a much wanted pregnancy can have complications, the treatment of which can be directly affected by the 8th amendment. Not just fatal foetal abnormalities - think missed miscarriage and infection, chorioamnionitis, pulmonary hypertension (as in the Arizona nun case), cancer or other serious illness diagnosis etc.


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    #354
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,537 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Ireland has an excellent standard of maternity care, better than can be found in many other western countries.

    What are you basing this statement on? YD pamphlets?


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    #355
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Ireland has an excellent standard of maternity care, better than can be found in many other western countries.

    No it doesn't.

    And the reproductive protocols here are immature and barbaric.

    You take your life in your hands when you get pregnant because the laws deny you of all bodily autonomy and basically treat you like breeding cattle.


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    #356
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    It should be a decision between a woman and her medical team at the end of the day.

    The father?


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    #357
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why shouldn't it be freely available? What circumstances it is ok to have an abortion? What should women in Ireland who don't want to remain pregnant be able to access? Or is compulsory gestation the only "choice" for all pregnant women unless they might die? Should the right to travel to avail of services where abortion is freely available be repealed, if the unborn have the right to life?

    That's a full questionnaire there.


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    #358
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    LorMal wrote: »
    The father?

    Input yes, final say no.


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    #359
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    Input yes, final say no.

    What if the father and the mother disagree?


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    #360
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    And how do you measure 'input?'


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    #361
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    LorMal wrote: »
    That's a full questionnaire there.

    Start with the first question and work your way through.


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