The South Will (not) Rise Again?

wendell borton

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/24/the-history-of-the-unkillable-confederate-flag.html
In the aftermath of the sick shooting church goers in S. Carolina there is a major backlash against the flag of the confederacy with major retailers withdrawing it from sale and moves to remove it from state capitol buildings by republican governors.
This stinks to me of hypocritical political expediency since the republicans have maintained a stranglehold on political power by demagoguing to the south with gun control and puplic healthcare issues being prime examples which had a lot more to blame for the killings than a flag.
Why not ban the US altogether flag, since it was founded by rich white slave owners and perpetrated genocide through manifest destiny.

kneemos

What are Corkers going to wave ?

housetypeb

Pitchforks.

20Cent

flags don't kill people guns do.

Berserker

Typical OTT reaction from the US. Next week they'll probably decide to give everyone entering a church in the southern states a free gun.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

20Cent wrote: »

flags don't kill people guns do.

Guns don't kill people. George R R Martin does.

The King of Moo

This is one of those cases where I initially feel it's an overreaction: yes the flag has nasty connotations that belong well in the past, but what's banning the flag going to achieve if you don't try to tackle the underlying problems which cause racism.

But then I think "What reasonable (American) individual is going to buy a Confederate flag and not be a d*ck?" and immediately don't give a damn about the feelings of anyone genuinley annoyed at not being able to buy one.

DEFTLEFTHAND

All reruns of the Dukes Of Hazards tv series and associated spinoff movies must have the General Lee's Confederate flag blurred out.

The King of Moo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

All reruns of the Dukes Of Hazards tv series and associated spinoff movies must have the General Lee's Confederate flag blurred out.

Warner Bros. have actually announced they're going to stop licensing toy versions of it:

(Warner Bros. announced today that it will stop licensing toy versions of the famous car, but will continue selling T-shirts and other Dukes merchandise sans the good ol’ stars and bars.)

http://www.avclub.com/article/dukes-hazzards-cooter-has-something-say-about-batt-221337

Which is a little sad, as it was a very cool car, and the flag did suit it in a purely aesthetic sense.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Jesus I was only taking the piss. This is getting bloody ridiculous, total overreaction.

crockholm

Pretty cool looking flag in fairness.

PARlance

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Jesus I was only taking the piss. This is getting bloody ridiculous, total overreaction.

Well, they haven't decided to bomb all flag manufacturers just yet so I'm holding off the "total overreaction" till then.

Collie D

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Jesus I was only taking the piss. This is getting bloody ridiculous, total overreaction.

Always the way when nutters hijack something. Who ever thinks of Charlie Chaplin when they see a small square moustache?

That said the flag has always had dubious connotations so hardly been hijacked now. I suppose some will see it as a harmless symbol of the south but I'd always think of rednecks first.

Grayson

The King of Moo wrote: »

This is one of those cases where I initially feel it's an overreaction: yes the flag has nasty connotations that belong well in the past, but what's banning the flag going to achieve if you don't try to tackle the underlying problems which cause racism.

But then I think "What reasonable (American) individual is going to buy a Confederate flag and not be a d*ck?" and immediately don't give a damn about the feelings of anyone genuinley annoyed at not being able to buy one.

I heard a comment on a show the other day. The pastor who was killed was a state senator in Charleston. The confederate flag hangs over the senate building.

It's one thing if an individual owns a flag like that, it's different when the state hangs it over it's capital.

For Forks Sake

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

All reruns of the Dukes Of Hazards tv series and associated spinoff movies must have the General Lee's Confederate flag blurred out.

http://newsthump.com/2015/06/24/confederate-flag-protest-sees-duke-of-hazzard-forced-to-borrow-wifes-nissan-micra/

Grayson

crockholm wrote: »

Pretty cool looking flag in fairness.

It does look cool on a dodge charger

The King of Moo

Grayson wrote: »

I head a comment on a show the other day. The pastor who was killed was a state senator in Charleston. The confederate flag hangs over the senate building.

It's one thing if an individual owns a flag like that, it's different when the state does hangs it over it's capital.

I was genuinely surprised when I first heard that the flag was flying over the statehouse, and then read that it still flies over state buildings in lots of parts of the South.
I wonder what it must be like for African Americans to have to see that on a regular basis in their hometowns.

Berserker

The King of Moo wrote: »

I was genuinely surprised when I first heard that the flag was flying over the statehouse, and then read that it still flies over state buildings in lots of parts of the South.

In the Tennessee statehouse, they have they bust of one of the founding figures of the Ku Klux Klan, if I remember correctly. As I said in another thread, I spend time in Texas and reminders of the past are common there.

wendell borton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q6AS5Yegy4

nokia69

The King of Moo wrote: »

I was genuinely surprised when I first heard that the flag was flying over the statehouse, and then read that it still flies over state buildings in lots of parts of the South.
I wonder what it must be like for African Americans to have to see that on a regular basis in their hometowns.

newmug

^^^^^^ I love pieces of reality like that. It reminds me of the North - Everybody stereotypes the situation and the people involved to what THEY think it was all about, and it incorrectly gets morphed from a fight for justice, to a fight for genocide.

For example, everybody thinks the North was about Catholics v Protestants. Ivor Bell, former IRA head, was a protestant. The Shankill Butchers, who were a UVF killing gang, were called Murphy, Connor, and Moore. 3 of the Irishest names you could get!

newmug

newmug wrote: »

The Shankill Butchers, who were a UVF killing gang, were called Murphy, Connor, and Moore. 3 of the Irishest names you could get!

Moore?

It's English. From "moor".

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

Moore?

It's English. From "moor".

his point is still a good one

nokia69

nokia69 wrote: »

his point is still a good one

Is it?

He said everyone thinks the North was Catholic v Protestant. I wouldn't say that at all. I'd say everyone thinks it was Loyalist/Unionist v Nationalist/Republican. The religion was really only representative, usually, of where people stood in that respect, but it was often wrong.

Similarly the US Civil War. Of course African Americans fought for the Confederacy. And slave owners fought for the Union. It wasn't simply about slavery. There were a host of other reasons, economics, culture, secession, the US had become 2 separate societies, a division which is still evident today...without the slavery.

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it?

He said everyone thinks the North was Catholic v Protestant. I wouldn't say that at all. I'd say everyone thinks it was Loyalist/Unionist v Nationalist/Republican. The religion was really only representative, usually, of where people stood in that respect, but it was often wrong.

it is

most people outside Ireland think of it as a religious conflict

just like most people outside the southern states in the US assume certain things about black and white people in the south

the truth is blacks and whites in the south get on far better than blacks and whites in the northern cities

nokia69

nokia69 wrote: »

it is

most people outside Ireland think of it as a religious conflict

just like most people outside the southern states in the US assume certain things about black and white people in the south

the truth is blacks and whites in the south get on far better than blacks and whites in the northern cities

I'd say most people outside Ireland don't think of it at all.

And most that do thought of it simply as Ireland versus Britain. Even now, some of those hardened Republican types are far more likely to express a distaste for England or the British than they are about Protestants.

I doubt many saw it as any crusade by Catholics or Protestants. Of course there was a hugely sectarian element to it.

Pumpkinseeds

It sounds like a total over reaction. Has anybody actually asked the black community how they feel about the flag, or is it just a case of some white idiots taking it upon themselves to feel offended on their behalf? Banning a flag is an utterly pointless knee jerk reaction. I heard some politician over there suggested removing it from a court house and I just assumed he was using the shootings as a platform to promote his own political career.

Menas

I lived in the deep south for a year and the flag is definitely a symbol for many down there. Black people i knew found it offensive as it symbolized that the flag bearer had a very different outlook than they did. For the whites who loved Dixie it was a symbol of independence, of not accepting liberals having control over their lives.

I was in a bar once and there was a country band playing. It was a bit of a wild place ...whisky drinking rednecks packed in to see this band.
On opening their final song of the set the singer said that 'this song is for all of you who dont accept some guy in a suit from new york tellin us how do live our lives'. The band fired up 'Sweet Home Alabama' while the Dixie flag was lowered on the wall behind the band. The crowd loved it...lots of Yee Haws...throwing of hats in the air.

The south is divided, always has been, and the Charlestown shooting is putting the uncomfortable truth out there. The flag is a symbol of that divide.

The_Kew_Tour

If only people worried about guns over flags, but hey, worry about a flag that does **** all harm to anybody over a Gun.

Dyr

Maybe if someone killed a churchload of people with a flag then they'd ban guns?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ok honest question coming in here - by "south" do people mean Cork or Texas?

swimming in a sea

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Ok honest question coming in here - by "south" do people mean Cork or Texas?

I think when Americans say the south they are not referring to Texas, as Texas is a whole other basket case of lunatics. Texas has money the rest of the southern states are poor.

Berserker

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I think when Americans say the south they are not referring to Texas, as Texas is a whole other basket case of lunatics. Texas has money the rest of the southern states are poor.

Hmm, well in relation to the original question by "south" people are referring to the southern or 'bible belt' states. Some parts of Texas have money but others are extremely poor. Brownsville, has or had up until very recently the highest poverty rate in the USA. I wouldn't agree that the people of Texas are lunatics either. The people I know there would go out of their way to help you. They are different to the rest of the USA but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

smash

Will loads of rednecks be forced to respray their Dodge Chargers?

c_man

They need stricter controls on who can buy these types of flags. Background checks and the like.

Egginacup

wendell borton wrote: »

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/24/the-history-of-the-unkillable-confederate-flag.html
In the aftermath of the sick shooting church goers in S. Carolina there is a major backlash against the flag of the confederacy with major retailers withdrawing it from sale and moves to remove it from state capitol buildings by republican governors.
This stinks to me of hypocritical political expediency since the republicans have maintained a stranglehold on political power by demagoguing to the south with gun control and puplic healthcare issues being prime examples which had a lot more to blame for the killings than a flag.
Why not ban the US altogether flag, since it was founded by rich white slave owners and perpetrated genocide through manifest destiny.

The Confederate Flag stands for racism, pure and simple. The Confederacy was an unmitigated hell-hole for black people and people who advocate brandishing that ugly banner are revolting. They yammer on about a Southern "identity" or some other mealy-mouthed nonsense but it's just about glorifying segregation, beatings and lynchings of blacks. There is no state or province in Germany that flies the Swastika banner as testament to a German "identity" or some such. There ought not be in the US either.

Muckracker

Egginacup wrote: »

The Confederate Flag stands for racism, pure and simple. The Confederacy was an unmitigated hell-hole for black people and people who advocate brandishing that ugly banner are revolting. They yammer on about a Southern "identity" or some other mealy-mouthed nonsense but it's just about glorifying segregation, beatings and lynchings of blacks. There is no state or province in Germany that flies the Swastika banner as testament to a German "identity" or some such. There ought not be in the US either.

Ha ha go to the South with that attitude and see how you get on. Personally I think it's far more complicated that 'durr only stupid rednecks fly that flag'. It is a symbol of heritage for many people. How many people actually owned slaves in the South? What about blacks and Indians who owned slaves? The story is more complicated than it first seems

falan

Deleted User wrote:

I'd say most people outside Ireland don't think of it at all.

Wrong. I visit England all the time and they think it is all about religion. On the first day I met my ex English girlfriend s mother, she asked me was I Catholic or protestant and would I ever see any of the troubles or riots. I live in rural county Limerick. She was genuinely curious

Menas

Menas wrote: »

On opening their final song of the set the singer said that 'this song is for all of you who dont accept some guy in a suit from new york tellin us how do live our lives'. The band fired up 'Sweet Home Alabama' while the Dixie flag was lowered on the wall behind the band. The crowd loved it...lots of Yee Haws...throwing of hats in the air.

The song was allegedly written as a response to Neil Young's "Southern Man". While there was no issue between Young and Lynyrd Skynyrd many fans of both have read a lot into both songs about the divide between the two cultures in the States. They have assumed an almost anthemic status.

As for the flag, it's a hard one to call. I mean, clearly the South was wrong. But on the other hand, it had some attractive personalities, from the nobility of Robert E. Lee to the brilliance of Stonewall Jackson, contrasting with the likes of McLellan and Grant, the vindictiveness of Sherman and so on. It's hard to know, should the flag that they stood for (and that's even putting it at it's highest point, of course it wasn't strictly speaking "the flag of the Confederacy", but one of them) be ditched because of our take on matters now? I think I would marginally favour doing so, if it causes offence and the offence is genuine, I think that outweighs its value.

falan

falan wrote: »

Wrong. I visit England all the time and they think it is all about religion. On the first day I met my ex English girlfriend s mother, she asked me was I Catholic or protestant and would I ever see any of the troubles or riots. I live in rural county Limerick. She was genuinely curious

Any person I ever spoke to about it, from England or anywhere, spoke of it in terms of Ireland, Irish bombers, campaigns by Irish terrorists and so on. They never referred to the Guildford attacks, Birmingham, Hyde Park and so on as "Catholic attacks" or the perpetrators as "Catholic bombers". Ever.

I guess we just know different people.

Muckracker

Deleted User wrote: »

The song was allegedly written as a response to Neil Young's "Southern Man". While there was no issue between Young and Lynyrd Skynyrd many fans of both have read a lot into both songs about the divide between the two cultures in the States. They have assumed an almost anthemic status.

As for the flag, it's a hard one to call. I mean, clearly the South was wrong. But on the other hand, it had some attractive personalities, from the nobility of Robert E. Lee to the brilliance of Stonewall Jackson, contrasting with the likes of McLellan and Grant, the vindictiveness of Sherman and so on. It's hard to know, should the flag that they stood for be ditched because of our take on matters now? I think I would marginally favour doing so, if it causes offence and the offence is genuine, I think that outweighs its value.

Good point about Sherman. One of the reasons Southerners hate Yanks so much is because of the devastation caused by Sherman.

Herb Powell

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the talk of "banning" it not exactly a ban? I mean, I thought it was just that they were just planning on possibly removing it from state/government buildings. Which seems fair enough to be honest.

We of all people should know how flegs can be more trouble than they're worth, especially when mixed with a portion of idiots.

Merces

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it?

He said everyone thinks the North was Catholic v Protestant. I wouldn't say that at all. I'd say everyone thinks it was Loyalist/Unionist v Nationalist/Republican. The religion was really only representative, usually, of where people stood in that respect, but it was often wrong.

Similarly the US Civil War. Of course African Americans fought for the Confederacy. And slave owners fought for the Union. It wasn't simply about slavery. There were a host of other reasons, economics, culture, secession, the US had become 2 separate societies, a division which is still evident today...without the slavery.

Economic and cultural reasons...like an economy and culture based on slavery?

Merces

Merces wrote: »

Economic and cultural reasons...like an economy and culture based on slavery?

Well they can't be disentangled. But economies based on industrialised urban areas in the North versus a much more rural and agricultural focus in the South. Of course with agriculture, particularly with cotton, came slavery.

Muckracker

Muckracker wrote: »

Good point about Sherman. One of the reasons Southerners hate Yanks so much is because of the devastation caused by Sherman.

Yep, after his infamous March to the Sea, Sherman's troops showed particular zeal in marching to Columbia and destroying it because, of course, South Carolina was the first to declare secession.

Ush1

Many, many flags will be offensive to some people. Sure the union jack is often referred to as the butchers apron.

Stolen from the Rubber Bandits twitter, they said is the US flag going to be banned now for offending native Americans?

topper75

Muckracker wrote: »

Good point about Sherman. One of the reasons Southerners hate Yanks so much is because of the devastation caused by Sherman.

During WWII in advance of the Normandy operation a planeload of U.S. soldiers from the state of Georgia were walking down the steps of an aircraft at a British airfield. There was a band to welcome them. Good idea. They struck up Marching through Georgia. Bad idea. They went nuts and and charged down toward the band, supposedly their allies, until officers intervened got a hold of the situation and explanations were sought. The Brits didn't know the meaning of the song or its historical background. Yeah Sherman is a byword for terror still in the state of Georgia today.

old_aussie

Wont somebody think of the General Lee, what's Daisy Duke gunna get picked up in now.

mynamejeff

Egginacup wrote: »

The Confederate Flag stands for racism, pure and simple. The Confederacy was an unmitigated hell-hole for black people and people who advocate brandishing that ugly banner are revolting. They yammer on about a Southern "identity" or some other mealy-mouthed nonsense but it's just about glorifying segregation, beatings and lynchings of blacks. There is no state or province in Germany that flies the Swastika banner as testament to a German "identity" or some such. There ought not be in the US either.

aye and the tricolor is a symbol of terrorism and bombers. and the Israeli flag is a symbol of murdering Jews massacring innocent Arabs and the south African flag is a symbol of racism and the union jack is a symbol of domination over native people.


over simplify much ?

if i lived in the south of the united states of america i would fly that flag every day just to show the liberals and the i cant be bullies into not standing by my heritage.

A flag has nothing to to with how over entitled persons take the opportunity to impose their arrogance on everyone around them

Fratton Fred

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I think when Americans say the south they are not referring to Texas, as Texas is a whole other basket case of lunatics. Texas has money the rest of the southern states are poor.

Any state that produces Shiner Bock cannot be entirely full of lunatics.

Nodin

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I think when Americans say the south they are not referring to Texas, as Texas is a whole other basket case of lunatics. Texas has money the rest of the southern states are poor.

An American similarily remarked to me once that the greatest achievement of the Florida tourist board was convincing America (and the rest of the world) that it wasn't in the South.