Collusion issues need a public enquiry

Fratton Fred · 08-09-2015 6:59am

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Maybe you missed the UVF statement in 1993 when they said the operation was successful in it's entirety. They didn't mention anything about warnings & with a statement like that I can only come to the conclusion that your a UVF supporter trying to cover for them. The UVF & It's SAS & Brit military allies wanted to sap to political will out of the Free State from the Sunningdale agreement & did just that.

And the difference between Warrington & Birmingham was a warning was given, in the case of Warrington at the wrong place & Birmingham was given a warning with about 5 minutes to evacuate 250 people because the original phone was broke. It does'nt take away from the tragedy of those events but I get the feeling you think there worse than Dublin for some unknown reason.

The Free State & British have time & time again given in to Loyalist terrorism or the threat of it since the moment Bonar Law declared "There are things more powerful than parliamentary majorities."

How am I "covering" for the UVF?

Maybe you could answer the question then. In their statement, if the UVF had said that they tried to give a warning, but the phone box was broken, would it have been acceptable?

Sand · 08-09-2015 10:46pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

A quick google search brings up dozens of results.

There was the first link http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/jan/04/northernireland.bloodysunday

Eh, the link shows that the man was awarded. It doesn't show he received an award for actions on Bloody Sunday which was the original challenge.

Indeed, reading the article I was looking to see any indication of *why* he was awarded the medal. No mention was made, which would indicate to me (being a cynic) that from the reporters point of view the story seemed more newsworthy if it didn't acknowledge the award was for some other action or service outside Bloody Sunday. Not untrue on any stated point, just not providing the whole facts.

I don't want to be in the position of criticising invalid or poor criticism of the Paras at Bloody Sunday given that I believe they *literally* got away with murder that day. So stop making very poor criticisms. Deal with the facts of the case themselves which are damning enough without embellishment.

Nodin · 08-09-2015 10:58pm

Colonel Derek wilford was the only one deemed to have been "awarded" for his actions, as he received an OBE in 1972. I'm unaware of others being awarded anything in the aftermath of the killings.

DarkyHughes · 15-09-2015 9:36pm

I only came back on this thread after watching this clip on Y/T. Talk about using human shields.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oPChg9OyEE

The British clearly & cynically built this base virtually on top of civilian houses in the hope that if the IRA attacked the base they would hopefully hurt some civilians as well turn it into negative propaganda for the liberation movement. And the British gov talk about other guerrilla groups using human shields, what hypocrisy. So not only did they collude with the UVF & UDA but they hid bases behind civilians to make it harder for the IRA to attack. I wonder how many civilians were hurt because of this policy.

DarkyHughes · 15-09-2015 10:01pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How am I "covering" for the UVF?

Maybe you could answer the question then. In their statement, if the UVF had said that they tried to give a warning, but the phone box was broken, would it have been acceptable?

Would it be acceptable? No. People would have been killed anyway with the bombs in such close proximity to each other & the fact they all went off within 3 minutes of each other, with the amount of time they gave themselves between priming the bombs & planting the bombs & the time needed to get back up to the border they didn't leave themselves much time to do much else anyway. Now if they phoned a legit warning that might have been different but that would have meant their goal was to blow up a shoe shop.

Anyway this is a question for science fiction writers. It doesn't explain the bombing of Monaghan to act as a diversion for the Dublin bombers. The UVF's goal was to kill as many people as possible, they had just killed 6 civilians in the North 2 weeks before Dublin with another no warning bombing in a pub. The UVF's & UDA's whole "philosophy" was to kill as many Catholics/Nationalists to make them to the as the IRA to call a halt.
I can't actually remember a time the UVF ever gave a warning can you?
That's your question.

DarkyHughes · 18-09-2015 11:28pm

One of the most saddest stories I remember hearing just a few years ago that happened in in the spring of 1981. A little girl Carol Ann Kelly (12) went to the shops to get milk for an elderly neighbor. On her way back from the shops along with a friend when a British Army vehicle pulled up besides the 2 girls & shot Carol Ann kelly point blank range in the head. And then to make things worse the British scumbag soldiers wouldn't let the girl receive medical attention for about half an hour, if the ambulance got to her straight away they might have saved her life. It was a cold & brutal from the British.
About 2 weeks later a 13 year old girl named Julie Livingstone was killed in similar circumstances to Carol Ann Kelly.
5 kids between the ages of 10 - 13 were killed in total in the summer of 1981. But no fuss or revulsion was made of these killings, now contrast that with the 2 kids killed in Warrington. That was a proper reaction to kids getting killed but for some reason the kids killed in Ireland didn't get the same type of reaction to Warrington.

At about 3:50 into this video there's an interview with Carol Ann's sister.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKLk6s4KoMg

Fratton Fred · 22-09-2015 1:54pm

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Would it be acceptable? No. People would have been killed anyway with the bombs in such close proximity to each other & the fact they all went off within 3 minutes of each other, with the amount of time they gave themselves between priming the bombs & planting the bombs & the time needed to get back up to the border they didn't leave themselves much time to do much else anyway. Now if they phoned a legit warning that might have been different but that would have meant their goal was to blow up a shoe shop.

Anyway this is a question for science fiction writers. It doesn't explain the bombing of Monaghan to act as a diversion for the Dublin bombers. The UVF's goal was to kill as many people as possible, they had just killed 6 civilians in the North 2 weeks before Dublin with another no warning bombing in a pub. The UVF's & UDA's whole "philosophy" was to kill as many Catholics/Nationalists to make them to the as the IRA to call a halt.
I can't actually remember a time the UVF ever gave a warning can you?
That's your question.

So as I stated then. In your opinion bombing London is perfectly acceptable, but bombing Dublin isn't.

Yet again, the blatent hypocrisy of the republican movement shows itself.

end of the road · 22-09-2015 2:51pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So as I stated then. In your opinion bombing London is perfectly acceptable, but bombing Dublin isn't.

thats your words, not his

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yet again, the blatent hypocrisy of the republican movement shows itself.

it doesn't

Fratton Fred · 22-09-2015 5:54pm

end of the road wrote: »

thats your words, not his

it doesn't

It does.

The difference between the Dublin attacks and the numerous attacks in England is minimal, if anything.

All equally despicable. You can not condemn one, but not the other.

TOMASJ · 24-09-2015 12:23am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does.

The difference between the Dublin attacks and the numerous attacks in England is minimal, if anything.

All equally despicable. You can not condemn one, but not the other.

Only difference being, one group was considered terrorist,

While the other group was supposed to be peace keepers,

Most would think murder done by those who were claiming to be peace keepers, was more despicable

Fratton Fred · 24-09-2015 6:55am

TOMASJ wrote: »

Only difference being, one group was considered terrorist,

While the other group was supposed to be peace keepers,

Most would think murder done by those who were claiming to be peace keepers, was more despicable

In what world were the UVF considered peace keepers?

end of the road · 24-09-2015 1:55pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In what world were the UVF considered peace keepers?

he wasn't talking about them, but you know that. it was of course the BA he was talking about

TOMASJ · 24-09-2015 5:30pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In what world were the UVF considered peace keepers?

Fred you need to take the blinkers of,

The british army/UDA/RUC/UDR/UVF, were all working together the North,

You should read some of the links people give here,

Might help your posts

Fratton Fred · 24-09-2015 5:39pm

TOMASJ wrote: »

Fred you need to take the blinkers of,

The british army/UDA/RUC/UDR/UVF, were all working together the North,

You should read some of the links people give here,

Might help your posts

You have evidence of the BA being involved in the Dublin bombings?

Despite what republicans like to think, saying something often enough, does not make it true.

end of the road · 24-09-2015 6:00pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You have evidence of the BA being involved in the Dublin bombings?

Despite what republicans like to think, saying something often enough, does not make it true.

no but considering what else the BA were involved in its a safe bet they were involved in the dublin and monaghan bombings

eire4 · 24-09-2015 6:15pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You have evidence of the BA being involved in the Dublin bombings?

Despite what republicans like to think, saying something often enough, does not make it true.

According to Sean McPhilemy's The Committee Robin Jackson who was recruited and trained by British military intelligence was involved in carrying out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. His group did the Dublin bombing. The main organiser of the attacks was UDR Captain Billy Hanna. John Irwin another UDR Captain was also part of British military intelligence and the bombs were put togther at the Mitchell farmhouse home of RUC reserve officer James Mitchell. The material used for the bombs was supplied to Robin Jackson by British military intelligence.

TOMASJ · 24-09-2015 6:22pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You have evidence of the BA being involved in the Dublin bombings?

Despite what republicans like to think, saying something often enough, does not make it true.

As i said in an eariler post Fred you need to take of the blinkers ,

Next thing you'll be saying is the british army did not kill 14 people in Derry on bloody sunday

Fratton Fred · 24-09-2015 6:36pm

eire4 wrote: »

According to Sean McPhilemy's The Committee Robin Jackson who was recruited and trained by British military intelligence was involved in carrying out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. His group did the Dublin bombing. The main organiser of the attacks was UDR Captain Billy Hanna. John Iriwn another UDR Captain was also part of British military intelligence and the bombs were put togther at the Mitchell farmhouse home of RUC reserve officer James Mitchell. The material used for the bombs was supplied to Robin Jackson by British military intelligence.

There are always allegations, but as the shinners keep reminding us, there is no proof.

eire4 · 24-09-2015 6:43pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There are always allegations, but as the shinners keep reminding us, there is no proof.

Ahh right so you ask for evidence and when its produced you dismiss it and you cannot bring yourself to say Sinn Fein so you use derogatory language in Shinners instead. Sean McPhilemy has absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Fein at all and his book The Committee details the British military involvement in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings including names. The book itself is focused on the Inner Force within the RUC which worked in combination with the umbrella organisation The Committe to carry out many murders in particular during the late 80's to mid 90's alongside and with the direct help of the RUC inner force menbers.

Fratton Fred · 24-09-2015 6:56pm

eire4 wrote: »

Ahh right so you ask for evidence and when its produced you dismiss it and you cannot bring yourself to say Sinn Fein so you use derogatory language in Shinners instead. Sean McPhilemy has absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Fein at all and his book The Committee details the British military involvement in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings including names. The book itself is focused on the Inner Force within the RUC which worked in combination with the umbrella organisation The Committe to carry out many murders in particular during the late 80's to mid 90's alongside and with the direct help of the RUC inner force menbers.

Hmmm, the good old RUC. Were they peace keepers? Most soldiers I know who served in NI held them in pretty low regard.

Tomasj, however, is claiming the British army carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, of which there is no evidence other than various allegations.

tomwaterford · 24-09-2015 7:03pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hmmm, the good old RUC. Were they peace keepers? Most soldiers I know who served in NI held them in pretty low regard.

Tomasj, however, is claiming the British army carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, of which there is no evidence other than various allegations.

The fact loyalists were unable to carry out anything approaching the level of sophistication again would point to outside assistance??

No mind Britons refusal to realease its papers in relation to it (it takes naivety to a new level if you think they haven't something on it!)

eire4 · 24-09-2015 8:04pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hmmm, the good old RUC. Were they peace keepers? Most soldiers I know who served in NI held them in pretty low regard.

Tomasj, however, is claiming the British army carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, of which there is no evidence other than various allegations.

Well as I have show above Sean McPhilemy's book The Committee shows that British military intelligence supplied the explosives and some of their men were involved and names them. He does admit not having the evidence to back up naming who in British military intelligence authorised the bombings though.

Fratton Fred · 24-09-2015 8:21pm

eire4 wrote: »

Well as I have show above Sean McPhilemy's book The Committee shows that British military intelligence supplied the explosives and some of their men were involved and names them. He does admit not having the evidence to back up naming who in British military intelligence authorised the bombings though.

Hence my statement about allegations. Citing military intelligence is a handy one to throw around, because it is semi believable and will never be proven one way or the other.

end of the road · 24-09-2015 8:31pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hence my statement about allegations. Citing military intelligence is a handy one to throw around, because it is semi believable and will never be proven one way or the other.

considering what else the BA were up to its a safe bet they were involved

Fratton Fred · 24-09-2015 8:47pm

end of the road wrote: »

considering what else the BA were up to its a safe bet they were involved

No, it really isn't.

What was the point of colluding with the uvf to bomb Dublin? If the British government wanted to give a message to the Irish government, a "stray" Buccaneer flying over the Curragh would have been far more effective.

tomwaterford · 24-09-2015 8:55pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, it really isn't.

What was the point of colluding with the uvf to bomb Dublin? If the British government wanted to give a message to the Irish government, a "stray" Buccaneer flying over the Curragh would have been far more effective.

As it was used to help force through legislation againest ira activities??

As at the time it was rumoured to be an ira attack....you do understand the thinking behind politically motivated violence??

TOMASJ · 24-09-2015 9:28pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hmmm, the good old RUC. Were they peace keepers? Most soldiers I know who served in NI held them in pretty low regard.

Tomasj, however, is claiming the British army carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, of which there is no evidence other than various allegations.

Not reading posts proper again Fred,

I said the brit army/udr/uvf /uda/ruc were all in cahoots, all colluding to kill catholics

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, it really isn't.

What was the point of colluding with the uvf to bomb Dublin? If the British government wanted to give a message to the Irish government, a "stray" Buccaneer flying over the Curragh would have been far more effective.

They probally would have tried to blame the IRA for hijicking that buccaneer bombing the Curragh,

Like what they tried to do with the the Mimi showband in 1975 when 2 british soldiers were blew up by their own bomb when planting it in a van used by the band,

Does Fred call this incident an allegation

Fratton Fred · 24-09-2015 11:17pm

TOMASJ wrote: »

They probally would have tried to blame the IRA for hijicking that buccaneer bombing the Curragh,

Like what they tried to do with the the Mimi showband in 1975 when 2 british soldiers were blew up by their own bomb when planting it in a van used by the band,

Does Fred call this incident an allegation

Two UDR soldiers were involved, not the British army.

A priest was behind the Claudy bombings, it does not mean the church was.

As usual, 2+2=whatever republicans like.

end of the road · 25-09-2015 12:00am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, it really isn't.

yes, it really is

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What was the point of colluding with the uvf to bomb Dublin?

to kill civilians and stur up trouble

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If the British government wanted to give a message to the Irish government, a "stray" Buccaneer flying over the Curragh would have been far more effective.

impossible as they didn't have any bicycle tubes and duct tape to stick them together, they only got those in 82 when thatcher went down to the argentine islands to ensure an election win

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Two UDR soldiers were involved, not the British army.

the british army were involved.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As usual, 2+2=whatever republicans like.

as usual for republicans, 2+2=facts

TOMASJ · 25-09-2015 12:17am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Two UDR soldiers were involved, not the British army

Sorry to inform you again Fred but the UDR were a british army regiment, one of the largest at the time ,
I dont think Ken Maginness for one would agree with you on that one as he boasts a lot about his time serving the crown in the UDR,

You need to read more and be better informed about these thing

A priest was behind the Claudy bombings, it does not mean the church was

For a guy that dosen't take hearsa and wants proof regarding brit killings, thats a big jump, evidence and sources please

Collusion issues need a public enquiry

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