Collusion issues need a public enquiry

publicenquiry

I've been following the issue of collusion for a long time.

What Collusion and Panorama showed, along with others like it, not to mention other journalistic works in books and TV not to mention enquires in the RoI, is that the British State effecively allowed and though their inaction and action, supported the killing of its own citizens. It also allowed to pass the murder of citizens of another country.

The security forces could have stopped it.

It was not just a small armed group intent on creating and maintaining strife, to the exent of wishing for civil war, it goes beyond that.

It showed the thought processes and beliefs of certain members of one part of the community in the north. Listen to to Ken McGuinnes, its still a belief for some, its hasn't gone away. So very backward, but thankfully slowly dying out.

This story has nothing to do with the police forces of any other state. Its the actions of players of the security apparatus in the north of Ireland and the UK government.

All those people, all those innocent people, mained, murdered, shot, blow up, homes destroyed, families destroyed, lives wrecked, kids without parents.

The security forces - with their role to upload law and order - could have stopped it, but didn't.

Those tradegies are not confined to one section of the community, north or south.

This is not about those who picked up a weapon, under whatever flag they went under, and paid the ultimate price.

Its about those people carrying out sectarian attacks who were being paid to upload the law.

They weren't attacking people who were armed. They attacked without any fear for themselves. They acted with impunity. They used state resources to make their getaway.

They had uniforms, they had guns, they had intelligence (though no humanity). They had the support of the powers that be.

Who could have stopped it, but didn't.

Reading though these comments - and its little different in many other places of discussion - theres people out there who are forgetting this.

Its not about arguements concerning what constitues a 'legitamate target', whether lawbreaker or law upholder. Its not about one side did this, the side did the other. Theres no whataboutery nonsense. Its not green and its not orange.

Its about justice and how law and order should be upheld in any society. Other members of the security forces could have stopped numerous murderous attacks. No need to kill anyone to stop it. Arrest them, put them on trial.

They didn't.

The state allowed attacks and systematic murders to continue. Why?

We are told that this was all kept under wraps to protect informers. Its also shown there was awareness of this all the way to cabinet and prime ministerial level in the UK. Who we are told proceeded to turn a blind eye, the better for them to avoid accountability.

Who else is being protected?

The best way to answer this is to have a public enquiry. Find out who made these decisions and why. If the decisions are justifiable, lets hear them. If theres nothing to be ashamed of, stand up.

Is there anyone with a shred of decency could defend the actions of these people or the people who directed them?

The forces of law and order could put an end to this, they should do the right thing. There should be a public enquiry.

For what reason, what good reason, would there be reluctance for a UK public enquiry. Surely if there is nothing to hide then it's the best way forward to deal with the issues of the past - not forgetting for many the effects will always be with them, as they wait for explanation, understanding and resolution. Is there any other way is there of handling the issue and getting to the truth?

downcow

One very good reason for not opening up a massive enquiry is cost. The Bloody Sunday enquiry cost £100million+ and that was about a dozen deaths on one day. Can you imagine the cost of enquiry into hundreds of deaths over decades. And enquiries only tell people what the want to here ie £100,000,000 and nationalists got it confirmed the army murdered innocent people while unionist got it confirmed that it was all kicked off by Martin Maginnis firing a sub machine gun

publicenquiry

No. Sorry, but that is nonsense. Refusal on grounds of cost is not a reason, its an excuse.

Under Human Rights law a government is not allowed to shirk its responsibility because of budget. If that were the case then any issue involving government could be brushed aside as cost ineffective.

The question is did the UK governament allow and sponser the mass murder of its own citizens. Consider they were able to have a public enquiry into whether or not some MP abused police officiers, a minor issue in comparison.

Talking about cost is a spurious red herring. The issue remains truth and justice. Its about how a government governs its people. Its how it represents and protect those it is responsible for. Its about how society functions. Its a question of how acceptable it is for a government to break the rules its supposed to uphold by allowing its agents to murder innocent people.

NorthStars

There will never be an investigation into state collusion in murders carried out in Ireland.
It doesn't suit the agenda.
Sinn Fein are the only party calling for a 'peace and reconciliation' to be set up, to at least look at what happened and put it in context.
Unionists, FG and Fianna Fail have no interest in the truth, it doesn't suit them politically.

TOMASJ

The brits are experts at covering up their dirty deeds, be it Ireland, Argentina, Afghanistan Iraq Libya, just pick a country and at one time or another they have murdered citizens there,

What gets up my nose are "the dont rock the boat, lick their back sides" natives in our country,

Who shout and rave about people who dared stand up to the british murderers,
But are struck dumb when it comes to having any view on crimes carried out by the british aganist their own citizens.

DarkyHughes

publicenquiry wrote: »

No. Sorry, but that is nonsense. Refusal on grounds of cost is not a reason, its an excuse.

Under Human Rights law a government is not allowed to shirk its responsibility because of budget. If that were the case then any issue involving government could be brushed aside as cost ineffective.

The question is did the UK governament allow and sponser the mass murder of its own citizens. Consider they were able to have a public enquiry into whether or not some MP abused police officiers, a minor issue in comparison.

Talking about cost is a spurious red herring. The issue remains truth and justice. Its about how a government governs its people. Its how it represents and protect those it is responsible for. Its about how society functions. Its a question of how acceptable it is for a government to break the rules its supposed to uphold by allowing its agents to murder innocent people.

I agree in principal there should be inquires into certain cases but how do you decide which was are more important than others?

There's so many cases of collusion stretching back to atleast 1971 & possibly before that - past the GFA.

People's Democracy march ambushed by loyalists & RUC officers.
McGurks pub bombing 1971
Battle of Springmartin 1972 were UVF & British troops joined forces in a gun battle against the IRA.
The 1972 & 1973 Dublin bombings.
The Dublin & Monaghan bombings 1974
Miami Showband massacre 1975
The Reavey & O'Dowd family killings 1976
The Kingsmill Massacre 1976
The Chlorane Bar attack 1976
The Ramble Inn shooting 1976
The La Mon bombing 1978
Milltown Cemetery attack 1988
The Pat Finucane murder 1989
The Jonesboro ambush 1989
The Cappagh Killings 1991
Sean Grahams bookmakers shootings 1992
The Greysteel Massacre 1993
The Loughingisland massacre 1994
The Billy Wright killing (doubt anyone would shed too much tears over that if it wasn't inquired)
The Rosemary Nelson killing 1999

Plus there's the Stakeknife fella.

And there just the main big ones. There's probably dozens if not 100's more cases.

DarkyHughes

Then there's also the Judith Ward, Guildford 4, Maguire 7 & Birmingham 6 cases that no police officer or anybody who got punished for these 18 innocent people serving massive jail sentences for.

Plus there was the agent Brian Nelson who leaked dozens if not 100's of documents on Republicans to UDA neo-nazi terrorists. And for all the documents that were leaked they only managed to kill about 10 Republicans. All the rest were civilians

publicenquiry

There appears a definite link between a particular series of murders and attacks, known as the Glenanne series. That includes many mentioned in the list above. This link is now viewed as being de facto true as per multiple sources, based on evidentiary links and direct statements.

While trying to pick one case or another as more important is difficult if not impossible, potentially insulting, it is important to see how the forces of law and order were being subverted, and by whom.

If its possilbe to use a group of linked cases to help prise the lid of these dirty activities and shine a light into this murky world, then it makes sense.

The correct way to do this, with the approriate resources and in the correct legal framework, is via public enquiry.

DarkyHughes

publicenquiry wrote: »

There appears a definite link between a particular series of murders and attacks, known as the Glenanne series. That includes many mentioned in the list above. This link is now viewed as being de facto true as per multiple sources, based on evidentiary links and direct statements.

While trying to pick one case or another as more important is difficult if not impossible, potentially insulting, it is important to see how the forces of law and order were being subverted, and by whom.

If its possilbe to use a group of linked cases to help prise the lid of these dirty activities and shine a light into this murky world, then it makes sense.

The correct way to do this, with the approriate resources and in the correct legal framework, is via public enquiry.

This was the Glenanne Gang who operated mainly in Armagh & border counties in the Republic, which was made up of members of the UVF, UDR, RUC & regular British Army. The infamous Captain Robert Nairac was alleged to have been a member.

There was also a British undercover unit called the MRF that operated in Belfast from late 71 - 73 that people claim murdered several Nationalist civilians until it's cover was blown & attacked by the IRA.

Also like Gerry Adams pointed out in the Dail the other day a number of murders & massacres carried out by the British Army. The Falls Road Curfew killings 5 civilians killed dozens wounded, The Ballymurphy Massacre 11 killed & several wounded plus another 9 civilians killed in other parts of Belfast during that same period and the Springhill Massacre were 5 civilians (including a 13 & 14 year old) were killed by British Army snipers & 2 others wounded.

eire4

NorthStars wrote: »

There will never be an investigation into state collusion in murders carried out in Ireland.
It doesn't suit the agenda.
Sinn Fein are the only party calling for a 'peace and reconciliation' to be set up, to at least look at what happened and put it in context.
Unionists, FG and Fianna Fail have no interest in the truth, it doesn't suit them politically.

I am very much of the opinion that holding a truly independant Truth and Reconciliation type investigation that would encompass all the atrocities without prejudice to one side or the other would be the best way to move forward with dealing with issues such as state collusion in murders as an example.

DarkyHughes

eire4 wrote: »

I am very much of the opinion that holding a truly independant Truth and Reconciliation type investigation that would encompass all the atrocities without prejudice to one side or the other would be the best way to move forward with dealing with issues such as state collusion in murders as an example.

I'm all for that but what counts as a atrocities tho? If The IRA & British Army were having a gun battle (there was lots of these in 71, 72 & 73) & 3 British were killed & 1 IRA Volunteer was killed would that count?

Or is it just atrocities on civilians & the IRA, UVF, UDA & British Army aren't included. If that's the case what about the Gibraltar & Drummnakilly killings of unarmed IRA men or Loughgall were the SAS shot 2 civilians.?

DarkyHughes

NorthStars wrote: »

There will never be an investigation into state collusion in murders carried out in Ireland.
It doesn't suit the agenda.
Sinn Fein are the only party calling for a 'peace and reconciliation' to be set up, to at least look at what happened and put it in context.
Unionists, FG and Fianna Fail have no interest in the truth, it doesn't suit them politically.

What a horrible right-wing coalition they'd make.

eire4

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I'm all for that but what counts as a atrocities tho? If The IRA & British Army were having a gun battle (there was lots of these in 71, 72 & 73) & 3 British were killed & 1 IRA Volunteer was killed would that count?

Or is it just atrocities on civilians & the IRA, UVF, UDA & British Army aren't included. If that's the case what about the Gibraltar & Drummnakilly killings of unarmed IRA men or Loughgall were the SAS shot 2 civilians.?

I would be of the opinion that nothing should be off the table on either side. There were no doubt many atrocities committed by both sides to the conflict and these need to be brought to light and shown for what they were so they are never repeated again in Ireland.


Maybe to give more clarity I should say I support a Truth and Reconciliation commission that would investigate all incidents attributed to the conflict without prejudice to one side or the other.

DarkyHughes

eire4 wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that nothing should be off the table on either side. There were no doubt many atrocities committed by both sides to the conflict and these need to be brought to light and shown for what they were so they are never repeated again in Ireland.


Maybe to give more clarity I should say I support a Truth and Reconciliation commission that would investigate all incidents attributed to the conflict without prejudice to one side or the other.

I think one thing that has to be done is the British need to release their files on the Dublin & Monaghan bombings. (I'm guessing Jim Cusack would be against that) It was the worst day of the Troubles, 34 people killed including an entire family who had two baby daughters killed, the majority of people killed were young women between 17 - 22 which people say is the best years of peoples lives (it was for me). And there was about 300 people injured many of them horrifically & maimed for life. It was a Taliban style attack no warning , bombs placed in a position were they would kill many people.

I really find it amazing so many people don't seem to give a sh!t about this. This was the worst terrorist against the PEOPLE of this country. Compare our reaction to these bombings & America's reaction to their worst terrorist attack. The attack was aimed at killing as many innocent people as possible & that's were it differs from other attacks of The troubles. No other attacks were aimed at killing as many innocent people as possible.

There's no other attack in the Troubles like it, except when the UVF tried to bomb a room of 200 - 250 people in 1994 & again in Dublin city, but were stopped by a IRA Volunteer who was shot & killed by the UVF death squad, but there's no doubt his actions saved the lives of atleast 2 dozen people imo.

Fratton Fred

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Then there's also the Judith Ward, Guildford 4, Maguire 7 & Birmingham 6 cases that no police officer or anybody who got punished for these 18 innocent people serving massive jail sentences for.

Plus there was the agent Brian Nelson who leaked dozens if not 100's of documents on Republicans to UDA neo-nazi terrorists. And for all the documents that were leaked they only managed to kill about 10 Republicans. All the rest were civilians

I presume you are also hoping that the people of Birmingham and Guildford get proper closure on the atrocities carried out there?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-26920619

And, of course, Nick Spanos and Stephen Melrose.

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I presume you are also hoping that the people of Birmingham and Guildford get proper closure on the atrocities carried out there?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-26920619

And, of course, Nick Spanos and Stephen Melrose.

Yes, of course. The Birmingham pub bombings were the 3rd most civilians died from a single attack with Omagh 1998 2nd, & Dublin & Monaghan 1st. So of course. Although none of the families have got justice for any of those attacks.

The people Killed in Guildford for soldiers involved in the conflict they weren't civilians. But they already got closure the birds in the trees know the Balcombe Street ASU were behind the Guildford & Woolich bombings, they confessed to it. It's not their fault the British legal systems was to embarrassed to admit they made a mistake by locking up the G4

i never really got the big fuss of the Guildford bombings they killed 4 British soldiers. In the North the IRA were killing 4, 3, 5 British soldiers in one go all the time between late 1971 - early 1975. The only difference was this attack was in England.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRAg7hz1wac

^ This was still 4 & a half years before the G4 were released. "What time was the last bus back to Aldershot"

Fratton Fred

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Yes, of course. The Birmingham pub bombings were the 3rd most civilians died from a single attack with Omagh 1998 2nd, & Dublin & Monaghan 1st. So of course. Although none of the families have got justice for any of those attacks.

The people Killed in Guildford for soldiers involved in the conflict they weren't civilians. But they already got closure the birds in the trees know the Balcombe Street ASU were behind the Guildford & Woolich bombings, they confessed to it. It's not their fault the British legal systems was to embarrassed to admit they made a mistake by locking up the G4

i never really got the big fuss of the Guildford bombings they killed 4 British soldiers. In the North the IRA were killing 4, 3, 5 British soldiers in one go all the time between late 1971 - early 1975. The only difference was this attack was in England.

If Sinn Fein is serious about a truth and reconciliation process, they could start the ball rolling by giving the families of those killed some sort of closure, but i doubt very much they actually want this process to take place. There could be one or two senior Sinn Fein members who may have to admit to a few things they have been denying for years.

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If Sinn Fein is serious about a truth and reconciliation process, they could start the ball rolling by giving the families of those killed some sort of closure, but i doubt very much they actually want this process to take place. There could be one or two senior Sinn Fein members who may have to admit to a few things they have been denying for years.

And it's probably the exact same for the British. How can they explain that they were the first combatant to carry out a massacre of innocent people - The Falls Road Curfew July 1970 - 5 civilians dead dozens more injured.
Then theirs the Ballymurphy massacre 11 innocent killed plus another 9 civlians killed by the British elsewhere in Belfast during the same time period bringing the death toll of 20 innocent civilians killed by the British Army in the space of 2 days.
And even after Bloody Sunday they carried out the Springhill massacre killing 5 civilians. Realizing all the bad propaganda they were receiving from this they waged their war against the IRA & Nationalist threw proxy by the Loyalist death squads. And their hands are steeped in blood of innocent civilians. The worst being Dublin & Monaghan, that was a Al-Qaeda style attack, kill as many innocent people as possible & the British won't release their files on the attack because they know there's something very disturbing in them files.

eire4

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I think one thing that has to be done is the British need to release their files on the Dublin & Monaghan bombings. (I'm guessing Jim Cusack would be against that) It was the worst day of the Troubles, 34 people killed including an entire family who had two baby daughters killed, the majority of people killed were young women between 17 - 22 which people say is the best years of peoples lives (it was for me). And there was about 300 people injured many of them horrifically & maimed for life. It was a Taliban style attack no warning , bombs placed in a position were they would kill many people.

I really find it amazing so many people don't seem to give a sh!t about this. This was the worst terrorist against the PEOPLE of this country. Compare our reaction to these bombings & America's reaction to their worst terrorist attack. The attack was aimed at killing as many innocent people as possible & that's were it differs from other attacks of The troubles. No other attacks were aimed at killing as many innocent people as possible.

There's no other attack in the Troubles like it, except when the UVF tried to bomb a room of 200 - 250 people in 1994 & again in Dublin city, but were stopped by a IRA Volunteer who was shot & killed by the UVF death squad, but there's no doubt his actions saved the lives of atleast 2 dozen people imo.

Given that the Dublin and Monaghan bombings was one of the worst atrocities in terms of being the lagrest death toll absolutely it would have to be part of a Truth and Recomciliation comission. No question about that.

DarkyHughes

eire4 wrote: »

Given that the Dublin and Monaghan bombings was one of the worst atrocities in terms of being the lagrest death toll absolutely it would have to be part of a Truth and Recomciliation comission. No question about that.

Not even in terms of death toll just the cold calculated way it was planned & executed. This wasn't some amateurs making a f*ck up like Omagh or the SAS in Dunloy killing the wrong person this was planned to kill as many innocent people as possible. They went of on the busiest day of the week, at the the busiest hour of day 5:28 pm just after everyone had finished work, while there was a bus strike on & during one of the busiest months as well.

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If Sinn Fein is serious about a truth and reconciliation process, they could start the ball rolling by giving the families of those killed some sort of closure, but i doubt very much they actually want this process to take place. There could be one or two senior Sinn Fein members who may have to admit to a few things they have been denying for years.

How would Sinn Fein go about given the families closure? Plus a lot of former Provos could have split with CIRA in 86 or RIRA 97 who were able to give closure. And if they did how would nationalists who were the victims of almost 1000 Loyalist sectarian killings go about getting some closure. Bill Hutchinson the leader of the PUP seems pretty happy that he killed to unarmed people who had nothing to do with the war/conflict.

Fratton Fred

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Not even in terms of death toll just the cold calculated way it was planned & executed. This wasn't some amateurs making a f*ck up like Omagh or the SAS in Dunloy killing the wrong person this was planned to kill as many innocent people as possible. They went of on the busiest day of the week, at the the busiest hour of day 5:28 pm just after everyone had finished work, while there was a bus strike on & during one of the busiest months as well.

It was a shocking atrocity, but not unique.

end of the road

DarkyHughes wrote: »

This wasn't some amateurs making a f*ck up like the SAS in Dunloy killing the wrong person

are you sure that was amateurs making a f*ck? wouldn't surprise me if it was deliberate TBH

DarkyHughes

end of the road wrote: »

are you sure that was amateurs making a f*ck? wouldn't surprise me if it was deliberate TBH

Omagh? Well it was deliberate in the sense that they wanted to make a bomb blow up. I don't think they intended to kill 29 people, but I could be wrong.

end of the road

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Omagh? Well it was deliberate in the sense that they wanted to make a bomb blow up. I don't think they intended to kill 29 people, but I could be wrong.

i was talking about the SAS in Dunloy. sorry if my post wasn't clear

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was a shocking atrocity, but not unique.

It was pretty unique. There wasn't much no warning car-bombings designed to inflict mass civilian causalities from 1966 - 1998 in Ireland or Britain that I can think of. I suppose McGurks pub bombing was pretty similar in that there was no warning & civilians were the target.

DarkyHughes

end of the road wrote: »

i was talking about the SAS in Dunloy. sorry if my post wasn't clear

Ah I see it's my fault I made a typo. There should be a "or" between "f*ck up" & "like the SAS".

It's possible the SAS knew he was a civilian & just made it look a mistake I suppose. I wouldn't be surprised.

Fratton Fred

DarkyHughes wrote: »

It was pretty unique. There wasn't much no warning car-bombings designed to inflict mass civilian causalities from 1966 - 1998 in Ireland or Britain that I can think of. I suppose McGurks pub bombing was pretty similar in that there was no warning & civilians were the target.

As they were in La Mons, Birmingham and Warrington.

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As they were in La Mons, Birmingham and Warrington.

Yeah they were horrible atrocities alright but civilians weren't the target, and there was warnings albeit botched ones. Dublin & Monaghan is also pretty unique for the lack of condemnation that followed such a high death toll from a single operation.

Fratton Fred

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Yeah they were horrible atrocities alright but civilians weren't the target, and there was warnings albeit botched ones. Dublin & Monaghan is also pretty unique for the lack of condemnation that followed such a high death toll from a single operation.

The hypocrisy always shows itself.

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The hypocrisy always shows itself.

does it? from who and how?

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The hypocrisy always shows itself.

Yes, the Dublin & Monaghan bombings are a good example of the British media's hypocrisy when it came to the Troubles.

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

does it? from who and how?

Same old same old really. What was the difference between the Dublin and Birmingham bombings?

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As they were in La Mons, Birmingham and Warrington.

La mons targeting ruc members??
Birmingham targeting British soldiers home (afaik some were among the injured) and Warrington a warning was given

^^no where have I said they were justified btw...but to try and use them to justify/brush off British enquires into the Dublin/Monaghan bombing is wrong



Look it to argue that britin doesn't have questions to answer about collusion is pointless when even the world and its mother knows the ira have done some wrong things....britin has not faced up to a fifth of what it's done in ireland and is leaving a sore in place until the truth is known as....it's only recently people on Bloody Sunday were exonerated and there were scores to see the truth....but yet took 40 odd years for them to apologise....do you not think they should apologise to victims of collusion??

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

La mons targeting ruc members??
Birmingham targeting British soldiers home (afaik some were among the injured) and Warrington a warning was given

^^no where have I said they were justified btw...but to try and use them to justify/brush off British enquires into the Dublin/Monaghan bombing is wrong

I'm not using them to brush off enquiries in to Dublin and Monaghan (although there has been comprehensive investigations by AGS and a latter enquiry) I'm using them to demonstrate the hypocrisy in display, which you have adequately done. Thank you.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not using them to brush off enquiries in to Dublin and Monaghan (although there has been comprehensive investigations by AGS and a latter enquiry) I'm using them to demonstrate the hypocrisy in display, which you have adequately done. Thank you.

There is no hypocrisy??

You are attempting to play down Britons part in killing Irish people north and south of the border by pointing out various comparable ira attacks....

There was no comprehensive inquiry by the guards (wound down after a few weeks-where else in the world would that happen??)
The later so called comprehensive inquiry britin refused to release its papers into it....you are beyond naive if you think they don't have it



They've questions to answer but you for reasons unknown appear to brush these under the carpet and forget on innocent people killed by them???


Quick question do you think britin should release all its papers on the information that it supplied to paramilitaries in Ireland over last 50 years or so??

Or all the intelligence gathered in Ireland on troubles related activity??

And if not why not??

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

There is no hypocrisy??

You are attempting to play down Britons part in killing Irish people north and south of the border by pointing out various comparable ira attacks....

There was no comprehensive inquiry by the guards (wound down after a few weeks-where else in the world would that happen??)
The later so called comprehensive inquiry britin refused to release its papers into it....you are beyond naive if you think they don't have it



They've questions to answer but you for reasons unknown appear to brush these under the carpet and forget on innocent people killed by them???


Quick question do you think britin should release all its papers on the information that it supplied to paramilitaries in Ireland over last 50 years or so??

Or all the intelligence gathered in Ireland on troubles related activity??

And if not why not??

You've just tried to down play three blatant attacks in civilians by the pira, that's the hypocrisy. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings were similar blatent attacks on innocent people.

I don't know what is in those files, so I can't answer that question.

And it's Britain by the way.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You've just tried to down play three blatant attacks in civilians by the pira, that's the hypocrisy. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings were similar blatent attacks on innocent people.

I don't know what is in those files, so I can't answer that question.

And it's Britain by the way.

I didn't ask you what was in the files....I asked do you think they should release them??
Il make it easy yes or no
If no...then why not?

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

I didn't ask you what was in the files....I asked do you think they should release them??
Il make it easy yes or no
If no...then why not?

It depends what is in them. If it doesn't help give closure but could expose an individual to retribution, then no. But as I don't know what is in them, I can't say.

Do you accept that there was no difference between the D&M bombs and those I mentioned previously?

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It depends what is in them. If it doesn't help give closure but could expose an individual to retribution, then no. But as I don't know what is in them, I can't say.

Do you accept that there was no difference between the D&M bombs and those I mentioned previously?

Expose an individual to retribution....could also open up possibility of someone facing justice or britin facing upto and owning up to its huge part in collision in the troubles.


I would view Britons invovlement in the D&M bombings as a fairly huge difference anyway

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

Expose an individual to retribution....could also open up possibility of someone facing justice or britin facing upto and owning up to its huge part in collision in the troubles.


I would view Britons invovlement in the D&M bombings as a fairly huge difference anyway

So you're dodging the question then.

Btw, Britons is the collective term for British citizens. You mean Britain's involvement, of which there is little more than speculation.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you're dodging the question then.

Btw, Britons is the collective term for British citizens. You mean Britain's involvement, of which there is little more than speculation.

No...do you not think britin being involved as a substantial difference (quite what ira bombing have to do a British collusion tread though?)

Look it...everyone knows they were invovled...it's kinda a running sore/embarrassment for them.:pac:..hence why they point blank refused to release papers to the inquiry....no one really expects justice....but for britin to own up to its messing in Ireland

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

No...do you not think britin being involved as a substantial difference (quite what ira bombing have to do a British collusion tread though?)

Look it...everyone knows they were invovled...it's kinda a running sore/embarrassment for them.:pac:..hence why they point blank refused to release papers to the inquiry....no one really expects justice....but for britin to own up to its messing in Ireland

Dodging again.

And it's Britain, not britin.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dodging again.

And it's Britain, not britin.

You take issue with spelling but not with Britons involvment in collusion preferring to avoid an awkward truth which doesn't sit easily for you.....:rolleyes:

R P McMurphy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dodging again.

And it's Britain, not britin.

You are accusing another poster of dodging? You come onto every thread about the north and try to litter it with strawman arguments in order to derail threads, as you can't cope with engaging with the fact that Britain engaged in what is known as the dirty war on this island. Why you are allowed to constantly do this on this forum is beyond me

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you're dodging the question then.

no . he answered his questions.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Btw, Britons is the collective term for British citizens.

his term is as valid

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean Britain's involvement, of which there is little more than speculation.

the dogs on the street know britain was involved in collusion with loyalist paramilitaries

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

the dogs on the street know britain was involved in collusion with loyalist paramilitaries

Are we believing these dogs now then?

That there was collusion is well known, although no where near as widespread as people would like to think. iirc, it also lead to several Sinn Fein Councillors lives being saved.

But that was never my point, my point was only that Dublin and Monaghan bombings were not unique in their savagery and to say so is hypocritical.

You would agree, no?

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

You take issue with spelling but not with Britons involvment in collusion preferring to avoid an awkward truth which doesn't sit easily for you.....:rolleyes:

I take issue with you dodging the question.

Fratton Fred

R P McMurphy wrote: »

You are accusing another poster of dodging? You come onto every thread about the north and try to litter it with strawman arguments in order to derail threads, as you can't cope with engaging with the fact that Britain engaged in what is known as the dirty war on this island. Why you are allowed to constantly do this on this forum is beyond me

I know Britain was engaged in a dirty war. i take issue with the view that they were the only ones. I take issue with hypocritical statements such as Birmingham was targeting soldiers, Warrington was an economic target etc, yet Dublin and Monaghan bombings were unique in that they targeted civilians. now, apparently, we have to believe the dogs on the street because they know the truth, yet the same dogs claim certain Sinn Fein leaders were up to no good and cries of "No Evidence" ring out. yet more hypocrisy.

There won't be a public enquiry or a truth and reconciliation process and do you know why? none and I mean none of the political parties on these islands want one.

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That there was collusion is well known, although no where near as widespread as people would like to think.

it was a lot more wide spread then one could ever think

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I take issue with you dodging the question.

he didn't. he answered the question

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know Britain was engaged in a dirty war. i take issue with the view that they were the only ones.

they were. they were colluding with loyalist paramilitaries and supporting and arming them while condemning the IRA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I take issue with hypocritical statements such as Birmingham was targeting soldiers, Warrington was an economic target etc

but it was true

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dublin and Monaghan bombings were unique in that they targeted civilians.

they were. the whole plan was to deliberately target civilians. for the most part the IRA campain wasn't to target civilians. rogue elements deliberately did, but they were not supported or condoned generally by the IRA. whereas the british government and military, along with loyalist paramilitaries deliberately set out to kill as many civilians as they could.

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

they were. the whole plan was to deliberately target civilians. for the most part the IRA campain wasn't to target civilians. rogue elements deliberately did, but they were not supported or condoned generally by the IRA. whereas the british government and military, along with loyalist paramilitaries deliberately set out to kill as many civilians as they could.

and there we have a perfect, shining example of the hypocrisy. quoted for posterity.