Collusion issues need a public enquiry

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The hypocrisy always shows itself.

Yes, the Dublin & Monaghan bombings are a good example of the British media's hypocrisy when it came to the Troubles.

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

does it? from who and how?

Same old same old really. What was the difference between the Dublin and Birmingham bombings?

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As they were in La Mons, Birmingham and Warrington.

La mons targeting ruc members??
Birmingham targeting British soldiers home (afaik some were among the injured) and Warrington a warning was given

^^no where have I said they were justified btw...but to try and use them to justify/brush off British enquires into the Dublin/Monaghan bombing is wrong



Look it to argue that britin doesn't have questions to answer about collusion is pointless when even the world and its mother knows the ira have done some wrong things....britin has not faced up to a fifth of what it's done in ireland and is leaving a sore in place until the truth is known as....it's only recently people on Bloody Sunday were exonerated and there were scores to see the truth....but yet took 40 odd years for them to apologise....do you not think they should apologise to victims of collusion??

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

La mons targeting ruc members??
Birmingham targeting British soldiers home (afaik some were among the injured) and Warrington a warning was given

^^no where have I said they were justified btw...but to try and use them to justify/brush off British enquires into the Dublin/Monaghan bombing is wrong

I'm not using them to brush off enquiries in to Dublin and Monaghan (although there has been comprehensive investigations by AGS and a latter enquiry) I'm using them to demonstrate the hypocrisy in display, which you have adequately done. Thank you.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not using them to brush off enquiries in to Dublin and Monaghan (although there has been comprehensive investigations by AGS and a latter enquiry) I'm using them to demonstrate the hypocrisy in display, which you have adequately done. Thank you.

There is no hypocrisy??

You are attempting to play down Britons part in killing Irish people north and south of the border by pointing out various comparable ira attacks....

There was no comprehensive inquiry by the guards (wound down after a few weeks-where else in the world would that happen??)
The later so called comprehensive inquiry britin refused to release its papers into it....you are beyond naive if you think they don't have it



They've questions to answer but you for reasons unknown appear to brush these under the carpet and forget on innocent people killed by them???


Quick question do you think britin should release all its papers on the information that it supplied to paramilitaries in Ireland over last 50 years or so??

Or all the intelligence gathered in Ireland on troubles related activity??

And if not why not??

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

There is no hypocrisy??

You are attempting to play down Britons part in killing Irish people north and south of the border by pointing out various comparable ira attacks....

There was no comprehensive inquiry by the guards (wound down after a few weeks-where else in the world would that happen??)
The later so called comprehensive inquiry britin refused to release its papers into it....you are beyond naive if you think they don't have it



They've questions to answer but you for reasons unknown appear to brush these under the carpet and forget on innocent people killed by them???


Quick question do you think britin should release all its papers on the information that it supplied to paramilitaries in Ireland over last 50 years or so??

Or all the intelligence gathered in Ireland on troubles related activity??

And if not why not??

You've just tried to down play three blatant attacks in civilians by the pira, that's the hypocrisy. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings were similar blatent attacks on innocent people.

I don't know what is in those files, so I can't answer that question.

And it's Britain by the way.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You've just tried to down play three blatant attacks in civilians by the pira, that's the hypocrisy. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings were similar blatent attacks on innocent people.

I don't know what is in those files, so I can't answer that question.

And it's Britain by the way.

I didn't ask you what was in the files....I asked do you think they should release them??
Il make it easy yes or no
If no...then why not?

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

I didn't ask you what was in the files....I asked do you think they should release them??
Il make it easy yes or no
If no...then why not?

It depends what is in them. If it doesn't help give closure but could expose an individual to retribution, then no. But as I don't know what is in them, I can't say.

Do you accept that there was no difference between the D&M bombs and those I mentioned previously?

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It depends what is in them. If it doesn't help give closure but could expose an individual to retribution, then no. But as I don't know what is in them, I can't say.

Do you accept that there was no difference between the D&M bombs and those I mentioned previously?

Expose an individual to retribution....could also open up possibility of someone facing justice or britin facing upto and owning up to its huge part in collision in the troubles.


I would view Britons invovlement in the D&M bombings as a fairly huge difference anyway

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

Expose an individual to retribution....could also open up possibility of someone facing justice or britin facing upto and owning up to its huge part in collision in the troubles.


I would view Britons invovlement in the D&M bombings as a fairly huge difference anyway

So you're dodging the question then.

Btw, Britons is the collective term for British citizens. You mean Britain's involvement, of which there is little more than speculation.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you're dodging the question then.

Btw, Britons is the collective term for British citizens. You mean Britain's involvement, of which there is little more than speculation.

No...do you not think britin being involved as a substantial difference (quite what ira bombing have to do a British collusion tread though?)

Look it...everyone knows they were invovled...it's kinda a running sore/embarrassment for them.:pac:..hence why they point blank refused to release papers to the inquiry....no one really expects justice....but for britin to own up to its messing in Ireland

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

No...do you not think britin being involved as a substantial difference (quite what ira bombing have to do a British collusion tread though?)

Look it...everyone knows they were invovled...it's kinda a running sore/embarrassment for them.:pac:..hence why they point blank refused to release papers to the inquiry....no one really expects justice....but for britin to own up to its messing in Ireland

Dodging again.

And it's Britain, not britin.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dodging again.

And it's Britain, not britin.

You take issue with spelling but not with Britons involvment in collusion preferring to avoid an awkward truth which doesn't sit easily for you.....:rolleyes:

R P McMurphy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dodging again.

And it's Britain, not britin.

You are accusing another poster of dodging? You come onto every thread about the north and try to litter it with strawman arguments in order to derail threads, as you can't cope with engaging with the fact that Britain engaged in what is known as the dirty war on this island. Why you are allowed to constantly do this on this forum is beyond me

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you're dodging the question then.

no . he answered his questions.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Btw, Britons is the collective term for British citizens.

his term is as valid

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean Britain's involvement, of which there is little more than speculation.

the dogs on the street know britain was involved in collusion with loyalist paramilitaries

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

the dogs on the street know britain was involved in collusion with loyalist paramilitaries

Are we believing these dogs now then?

That there was collusion is well known, although no where near as widespread as people would like to think. iirc, it also lead to several Sinn Fein Councillors lives being saved.

But that was never my point, my point was only that Dublin and Monaghan bombings were not unique in their savagery and to say so is hypocritical.

You would agree, no?

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

You take issue with spelling but not with Britons involvment in collusion preferring to avoid an awkward truth which doesn't sit easily for you.....:rolleyes:

I take issue with you dodging the question.

Fratton Fred

R P McMurphy wrote: »

You are accusing another poster of dodging? You come onto every thread about the north and try to litter it with strawman arguments in order to derail threads, as you can't cope with engaging with the fact that Britain engaged in what is known as the dirty war on this island. Why you are allowed to constantly do this on this forum is beyond me

I know Britain was engaged in a dirty war. i take issue with the view that they were the only ones. I take issue with hypocritical statements such as Birmingham was targeting soldiers, Warrington was an economic target etc, yet Dublin and Monaghan bombings were unique in that they targeted civilians. now, apparently, we have to believe the dogs on the street because they know the truth, yet the same dogs claim certain Sinn Fein leaders were up to no good and cries of "No Evidence" ring out. yet more hypocrisy.

There won't be a public enquiry or a truth and reconciliation process and do you know why? none and I mean none of the political parties on these islands want one.

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That there was collusion is well known, although no where near as widespread as people would like to think.

it was a lot more wide spread then one could ever think

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I take issue with you dodging the question.

he didn't. he answered the question

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know Britain was engaged in a dirty war. i take issue with the view that they were the only ones.

they were. they were colluding with loyalist paramilitaries and supporting and arming them while condemning the IRA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I take issue with hypocritical statements such as Birmingham was targeting soldiers, Warrington was an economic target etc

but it was true

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dublin and Monaghan bombings were unique in that they targeted civilians.

they were. the whole plan was to deliberately target civilians. for the most part the IRA campain wasn't to target civilians. rogue elements deliberately did, but they were not supported or condoned generally by the IRA. whereas the british government and military, along with loyalist paramilitaries deliberately set out to kill as many civilians as they could.

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

they were. the whole plan was to deliberately target civilians. for the most part the IRA campain wasn't to target civilians. rogue elements deliberately did, but they were not supported or condoned generally by the IRA. whereas the british government and military, along with loyalist paramilitaries deliberately set out to kill as many civilians as they could.

and there we have a perfect, shining example of the hypocrisy. quoted for posterity.

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and there we have a perfect, shining example of the hypocrisy. quoted for posterity.

we have nothing of the sort. just the truth from me

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not using them to brush off enquiries in to Dublin and Monaghan (although there has been comprehensive investigations by AGS and a latter enquiry) I'm using them to demonstrate the hypocrisy in display, which you have adequately done. Thank you.

Where is the hypocrisy? It's not my fault the IRA weren't targeting civilians in the atrocities you mentioned. They were horrible blunders but they were not trying to kill civilians unlike who ever was behind the Dublin & Monaghan bombings they were trying to kill as many civilians as possible, I think it was the Tara Street bomber who picked Tara Street as his second target because he was unable to find a parking place for his original target which was packed with much more people & would have caused a much higher death toll if he had found a space.

Kingsmill & The Darkley massacres are cases of Republicans targeting civilians . There more similar to Dublin & Monaghan than the bombings you mentioned because in all cases the targets were civilians.

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and there we have a perfect, shining example of the hypocrisy. quoted for posterity.

No, there just facts. But don't let facts get in the way of you're defense of Loyalists & the British Army killing people while at the same smearing Republicans.

DarkyHughes

There was also an interesting theory I read about the Birmingham pub bombings. It was IRA people who panted & made the bombs but as agents working for MI5 who turned informers. MI5 wanted high civilian causalities to turn support against the IRA & in turn create a hostile atmosphere against the Irish in England which is what happened & it made it much easier to do what they did to the Birmingham 6 - they were used as scapegoats for the real M15 agent bombers. That would explain why when the Birmingham 6 were released there was no real attempt made to catch the actual bombers.

I'm not saying it's true but it would explain a lot. The IRA had 5 years experience of planting bombs in pubs, restaurants, hotels, clubs etc... in the North & they never came close to a disaster like Birmingham & they always sent their most experienced bombers to England to avoid such atrocities.

end of the road

DarkyHughes wrote: »

There was also an interesting theory I read about the Birmingham pub bombings. It was IRA people who panted & made the bombs but as agents working for MI5 who turned informers. MI5 wanted high civilian causalities to turn support against the IRA & in turn create a hostile atmosphere against the Irish in England which is what happened & it made it much easier to do what they did to the Birmingham 6 - they were used as scapegoats for the real M15 agent bombers. That would explain why when the Birmingham 6 were released there was no real attempt made to catch the actual bombers.

I'm not saying it's true but it would explain a lot. The IRA had 5 years experience of planting bombs in pubs, restaurants, hotels, clubs etc... in the North & they never came close to a disaster like Birmingham & they always sent their most experienced bombers to England to avoid such atrocities.

absolutely nothing would surprise me where the british authorities and security forces are and were concerned. couple it with anti-irish vermin within those forces and we know how it ends

eire4

I don't know about the above. Thats obviously pure speculation. But certainly the high level and wipespread corruption and involvement with Loyalist terrorists by the RUC/UDR as detailed for instance in the Channel 4 Dispatches programme and Sean McPhilemy's book The Committee is scary enough as it is.

DarkyHughes

end of the road wrote: »

absolutely nothing would surprise me where the british authorities and security forces are and were concerned. couple it with anti-irish vermin within those forces and we know how it ends

Exactly, I'm not one for conspiracies but a lot of that adds up. Were about were the original bombers? After the B6 were released they barely lifted a finger to try & catch the real bombers, that's because the real bombers were under the protection of M!5.

tomwaterford

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Exactly, I'm not one for conspiracies but a lot of that adds up. Were about were the original bombers? After the B6 were released they barely lifted a finger to try & catch the real bombers, that's because the real bombers were under the protection of M!5.

That's because the real bombers were in jail
They gave statements to the courts saying they carried out the bombings....but britin didn't act (God knows what reasons why??) on this info preferring to let innocent Irish people languish in there prisons


The balcombe street gang....afaik they were given a rousing reception at a Sinn Fein ard deis upon their release

DarkyHughes

tomwaterford wrote: »

That's because the real bombers were in jail
They gave statements to the courts saying they carried out the bombings....but britin didn't act (God knows what reasons why??) on this info preferring to let innocent Irish people languish in there prisons


The balcombe street gang....afaik they were given a rousing reception at a Sinn Fein ard deis upon their release

The Balcombe Street gang said they carried out the Guildford & Woolwich bombings which another set of innocent people were locked up for.

A Dub in Glasgo

tomwaterford wrote: »

.but britin didn't act (God knows what reasons why??) on this info

I think it is fairly obvious... appalling vista comes to mind