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Collusion: RTE programme on the RUC, UDA etc..

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24

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    #32
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    NorthStars wrote: »

    Get off the stage.
    The hierarchy of victims is obvious on this board.
    Count the responses to this thread and count the ones to threads attacking republicans, the IRA etc etc.
    Some people on this site are still under British rule, in their heads......or have a yearning to be.

    I'm a west brit? That's the best you can come up with?


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    #33
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    I'm a west brit? That's the best you can come up with?

    You said that.
    Not me.
    But, if it's how you feel deep down, don't let me stop you.


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    #34
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    NorthStars wrote: »
    You said that.
    Not me.
    But, if it's how you feel deep down, don't let me stop you.

    Yawn


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    #35
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    Yawn

    Not surprised.
    You make a point about yourself, claim I said it, and then come up with "Yawn" when that's pointed out to you.
    Fair play.


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    #36
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    Very true. Who remembers the Reaveys and the O'Dowds?

    I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the killing of the O'Dowds and the Reavys are not remembered. Those killings are one of the clearest cases of collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces.
    In the late 90s Ian Paisley in the House of Commons was still trying to peddle the line that they were members of the IRA.

    Unfortunately the savagery meted out to those two innocent families was somewhat overshadowed by the Kingsmill Massacre the next day when the IRA murdered ten innocent Protestants in a revenge attack.

    For me, the killing of the O'Dowds, the Reavys and the Kingsmill workers stands out as one of the ugliest chapters in the Troubles.


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    #37
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    NorthStars wrote: »
    It is quite amazing how the programme hasn't seen a bigger reaction both on here and in general.
    The British state were colluding with, indeed some of their employees were in fact, loyalist terrorists involved in the assassination of citizen's of our country.
    An MP was handing peoples names and details to the prime minister of the UK and within days these people were dispatched by the cowards of the SAS.
    I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically.

    I am not amazed at all.

    I haven't seen the programme so I won't comment on the details. However, I am not alone in that. Outside of boards, I haven't heard it mentioned by anyone over the last few days.

    Q: Why are people down South not too interested in reports about British collusion in the 1970s and 1980s.

    A: It has no relevance to today's Ireland as it is something that happened in a different country and in a different era and none of the participants are of relevance to today's Ireland.

    Q: In contrast, why is there so much more interest in things like Garda McCabe, Mairia Cahill and Paudie McGahan?

    A: Because all three cases are of much more recent vintage, the political party linked to them is putting itself forward for election in this State, some of the alleged participants (Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris) are still active politically in this State and people want answers.

    The general point is that the Irish public may well accept that the British did equally bad, less bad or even worse things than the IRA (take your pick depending on your viewpoint) but the British are not standing for election down here and do not need therefore to explain their behaviour.

    I will once again be pilloried on here for these views and accused of all sorts of partitionist and collusion-type behaviour but the inability of the SF heirarchy and their supporters to understand this viewpoint is one of the reasons their political support appears to have peaked.

    However fair or unfair you may think it is, Sinn Fein is going to be held to a greater level of accountability, transparency and explanation by the Irish electorate than any foreign Government. All of which explains the muted reaction to the programme.


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    #38
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Godge wrote: »
    I am not amazed at all.

    I haven't seen the programme so I won't comment on the details. However, I am not alone in that. Outside of boards, I haven't heard it mentioned by anyone over the last few days.

    Q: Why are people down South not too interested in reports about British collusion in the 1970s and 1980s.

    A: It has no relevance to today's Ireland as it is something that happened in a different country and in a different era and none of the participants are of relevance to today's Ireland.

    Q: In contrast, why is there so much more interest in things like Garda McCabe, Mairia Cahill and Paudie McGahan?

    A: Because all three cases are of much more recent vintage, the political party linked to them is putting itself forward for election in this State, some of the alleged participants (Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris) are still active politically in this State and people want answers.

    The general point is that the Irish public may well accept that the British did equally bad, less bad or even worse things than the IRA (take your pick depending on your viewpoint) but the British are not standing for election down here and do not need therefore to explain their behaviour.

    I will once again be pilloried on here for these views and accused of all sorts of partitionist and collusion-type behaviour but the inability of the SF heirarchy and their supporters to understand this viewpoint is one of the reasons their political support appears to have peaked.

    However fair or unfair you may think it is, Sinn Fein is going to be held to a greater level of accountability, transparency and explanation by the Irish electorate than any foreign Government. All of which explains the muted reaction to the programme.

    What have Sinn Fein, Maria Cahill and Paudie McGahan got to do with collusion between loyalists and the Security forces?

    FFS, is it not possible to discuss anything pertaining to Northern Ireland without being dragged off topic in the first few pages?


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    #39
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Godge wrote: »
    I am not amazed at all.

    I haven't seen the programme so I won't comment on the details.

    Grand so.


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    #40
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    I just noticed that the Sinn Fein thread has been closed.
    Is this the next stop for people to vent their prejudices?

    Just so as we know, this thread is about British collusion with loyalist terrorists.


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    #41
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    What have Sinn Fein, Maria Cahill and Paudie McGahan got to do with collusion between loyalists and the Security forces?

    FFS, is it not possible to discuss anything pertaining to Northern Ireland without being dragged off topic in the first few pages?

    Nothing.

    However, there were a number of posters commenting on the lack of reaction to the programme both on boards and in wider society. I was explaining that lack of reaction. If it went off topic, it was when people started talking about the reaction to the programme rather than the programme itself.

    I deliberately didn't comment on the programme itself but my choice to watch something else is indicative of the lack of general public interest.


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    #42
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Godge wrote: »
    I am not amazed at all.

    I haven't seen the programme so I won't comment on the details. However, I am not alone in that. Outside of boards, I haven't heard it mentioned by anyone over the last few days.

    Q: Why are people down South not too interested in reports about British collusion in the 1970s and 1980s.

    A: It has no relevance to today's Ireland as it is something that happened in a different country and in a different era and none of the participants are of relevance to today's Ireland.

    id imagine families in dublin, monaghan, dundalk and anywhere else in "your" country (cause youre totally not a partitionist) that the british sent their agents to enact their own brand of justice would disagree with you there


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    #43
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    id imagine families in dublin, monaghan, dundalk and anywhere else in "your" country (cause youre totally not a partitionist) that the british sent their agents to enact their own brand of justice would disagree with you there


    If that was the case, there would be nothing else on Joe Duffy or the tabloids.

    The absence of public outrage only makes my point.

    Sure there will be some people who are personally affected by it - the same way that there are people still affected by programmes about the Stardust fire - but there isn't huge public disquiet. The mistake people often make who are caught up in personal outrage about something is to think that lots of others share their view. If you want another example of it, just look at any public discussion about Irish Water.


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    #44
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Godge wrote: »
    Nothing.

    However, there were a number of posters commenting on the lack of reaction to the programme both on boards and in wider society. I was explaining that lack of reaction. If it went off topic, it was when people started talking about the reaction to the programme rather than the programme itself.

    I deliberately didn't comment on the programme itself but my choice to watch something else is indicative of the lack of general public interest.

    You didn't watch it, you have no interest in the subject - fair enough.

    Personally I think the involvement of the British security forces in one of the worst massacres in the history of our state along with other murders and bombings, the extra-judicial execution of people in Northern Ireland and the complicity of the British state in terrorism should be of great interest to the people of this state.


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    #45
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Sinn Fein, The Stardust fire, Irish Water.
    All dragged into a discussion on British collusion with loyalist terrorists.
    Strange place this.


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    #46
    mg1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭mg1982


    Like was said before, i dont think the programme showed anything we didnt already know. In my opinion i dont see much point in repeatedly dragging up stuff that happened in the past. For the sake of peace in NI i think it should be a clean slate from now on.


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    #47
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Anyone with even the slightest interest is finding out about the troubles and why it wen't on for so long should really watch this programme.
    The 'nasty republicans caused it all' narrative really is down to a lazy servile attitude and an unwillingness to upset the British.
    In some peoples minds the British have never left the ROI, and if all's told would rather be part of the union.


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    #48
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    You didn't watch it, you have no interest in the subject - fair enough.

    Personally I think the involvement of the British security forces in one of the worst massacres in the history of our state along with other murders and bombings, the extra-judicial execution of people in Northern Ireland and the complicity of the British state in terrorism should be of great interest to the people of this state.

    You can argue that it should be but the truth is that it isn't.


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    #49
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Sinn Fein, The Stardust fire, Irish Water.
    All dragged into a discussion on British collusion with loyalist terrorists.
    Strange place this.

    Not really. Usually in a discussion it is helpful to use examples to help in getting your point across.

    It is not like a train track where you can only go where some people say you should go.


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    #50
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Godge wrote: »
    Not really. Usually in a discussion it is helpful to use examples to help in getting your point across.

    It is not like a train track where you can only go where some people say you should go.

    I watched the programme on collusion.
    Sinn Fein weren't mentioned.
    The Stardust fire wasn't mentioned.
    Irish Water wasn't mentioned.
    Why would you, or anyone, try or bother to bring these subjects into a thread discussing a programme about British state collusion with Loyalist terrorists?
    Is the Sinn Fein thread still locked or something?


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    #51
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Actually, don't answer the question.
    I've just checked and the Sinn Fein thread is still locked.
    It's a strange mindset that feels the need to bring Sinn Fein into every discussion.
    Still, each to their own I suppose.


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    #52
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    Nothing.

    However, there were a number of posters commenting on the lack of reaction to the programme both on boards and in wider society. I was explaining that lack of reaction. If it went off topic, it was when people started talking about the reaction to the programme rather than the programme itself.

    I deliberately didn't comment on the programme itself but my choice to watch something else is indicative of the lack of general public interest.

    If you don't want to watch the programme or discuss it, maybe you should just leave the thread alone.

    You are correct, your 'choice not to watch the programme' is indicative of something alright.


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    #53
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    mg1982 wrote: »
    Like was said before, i dont think the programme showed anything we didnt already know. In my opinion i dont see much point in repeatedly dragging up stuff that happened in the past. For the sake of peace in NI i think it should be a clean slate from now on.

    A clean slate now that would be great,
    what you ignore is the willingess of the british to go after people from a republican stance for killings that happened over 40 years ago',

    When at the same time ignoring killings they were involved in as recently as the 90s,

    Looks like they "the british" were involved in hunderds of murders and it could be counted on one hand the convictions against them,


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    #54
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If you don't want to watch the programme or discuss it, maybe you should just leave the thread alone.<br />
    <br />
    You are correct, your 'choice not to watch the programme' is indicative of something alright.
    In fairness to him he was specifically mentioned on this thread, before he even posted, as were others. Post is now deleted for baiting others.<br />

    General Mod note:
    Up the standard please, that obviously means no handbags as the regulars on these topics are well aware.

    This forum requires a higher standard than the politics cafe,nobody can say they weren't warned.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #55
    Very Bored
    Registered Users Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Very Bored


    Watching it now. Didn't realise it was on last night. Very interesting though its not anything I didn't know, or at least suspect, beforehand.


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    #56
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,640 ✭✭✭eire4


    mg1982 wrote: »
    Like was said before, i dont think the programme showed anything we didnt already know. In my opinion i dont see much point in repeatedly dragging up stuff that happened in the past. For the sake of peace in NI i think it should be a clean slate from now on.



    Personally I am of the view that we need a truth and reconciliation commission where all the atrocities by both sides are brought out into the open. To sweep the kind of horrific atrocities that occured under the carpet is just to set things up to happen again and does nothing to heal the pain and anger and mistrust which for many valid reasons is all too alive and well on both sides. The terrible things done need to be fully brought to light so we can see just how bad they were and learn and make sure they never happen again.


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    #57
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Probably because there was nothing very original in this documentary, most of this information has been in the public domain for a very long time.

    It was a well made film and the interviews with some of the main players were interesting. However, overall I ,think it lacked focus by trying to interview too many people and being too broad in scope.
    [QUOTE
    wonderful how people say this information was in the public domain, I remember even on this forum being "tut tuted" at and shor thats only provo fairytails, When did you start beliving the brisish were responsible for all these killings,



    The IRA in Tyrone in the late 80' and early 90s was extremely reckless, their operational security was poor, and they were probably riddled with informers. They repeatedly lost men in ambushes to the British Army travelling to and from operations. The shooting of the Harte brothers and Brian Mullin fall into that category.

    They were three members of an ASU who were ambushed and shot dead while armed, them's the breaks. The IRA were willing to kill people regardless of whether they were armed or not, I never understand the 'RA supporters need for a double standard on this.

    One of your lines on the Harte brothers and Brian Mullan right are right yes "they were shot and killed by the sas" the rest of you story is flawed, They were drew into an ambush by the brits, there guns were in the boot of the car when they were killed, you said the IRA killed people regardless of being armed or not you forget to mention the british did the same, As you said above its in the public domaim for those who want to know about it

    Bullsh1t.

    Again the double standard, your trying to pedal some form of hierarchy of victimhood while pretending to be impartial.
    A lot of bullsh about this country


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    #58
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    wonderful how people say this information was in the public domain, I remember even on this forum being "tut tuted" at and shor thats only provo fairytails, When did you start beliving the brisish were responsible for all these killings,

    Tomas, I don't really care what anyone posts in other threads, there was nothing new about collusion in this documentary. If you think there was some new information then please state exactly what.
    One of your lines on the Harte brothers and Brian Mullan right are right yes "they were shot and killed by the sas" the rest of you story is flawed, They were drew into an ambush by the brits, there guns were in the boot of the car when they were killed, you said the IRA killed people regardless of being armed or not you forget to mention the british did the same, As you said above its in the public domaim for those who want to know about it

    Fact is the three men who were killed were members of the IRA and were on a job when they were killed. There were weapons in their car. Whether they fired the weapons or not I don't know and neither do you, I suspect the IRA men never got a chance to fire before they were shot despite the soldiers accounts. No civilians were let near the ambush site in the aftermath of the incident. Even the An Poblacht account says the area around the shooting was sealed off immediately. If you have a credible source for your claim that the weapons were in the boot I'd like to see it.

    The ambush at Drumnakilly was one of a series of ambushes carried out successfully by the SAS on the IRA in East Tyrone. My opinion on these shootings is that while they may not have always have been entirely legal they were justifiable. The shooting dead of unarmed IRA members and civilians was never justifiable. Basically, if you live by the sword then you have to be prepared to die by the sword.

    None of this is really connected to the issue of collusion. The only reason the Drumnakilly ambush is being mentioned is because Ken Maginnis has repeatedly claimed he got Thatcher to set it up. Ken Maginnis was a mid-ranking part time member of the UDR and an opposition MP. The notion that he had any say or influence in SAS operations is ridiculous.


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    #59
    aveytare
    Registered Users Posts: 364 ✭✭aveytare


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    Tomas, I don't really care what anyone posts in other threads, there was nothing new about collusion in this documentary. If you think there was some new information then please state exactly what.



    Fact is the three men who were killed were members of the IRA and were on a job when they were killed. There were weapons in their car. Whether they fired the weapons or not I don't know and neither do you, I suspect the IRA men never got a chance to fire before they were shot despite the soldiers accounts. No civilians were let near the ambush site in the aftermath of the incident. Even the An Poblacht account says the area around the shooting was sealed off immediately. If you have a credible source for your claim that the weapons were in the boot I'd like to see it.

    The ambush at Drumnakilly was one of a series of ambushes carried out successfully by the SAS on the IRA in East Tyrone. My opinion on these shootings is that while they may not have always have been entirely legal they were justifiable. The shooting dead of unarmed IRA members and civilians was never justifiable. Basically, if you live by the sword then you have to be prepared to die by the sword.

    None of this is really connected to the issue of collusion. The only reason the Drumnakilly ambush is being mentioned is because Ken Maginnis has repeatedly claimed he got Thatcher to set it up. Ken Maginnis was a mid-ranking part time member of the UDR and an opposition MP. The notion that he had any say or influence in SAS operations is ridiculous.

    From Tyrone myself, the IRA were hit very hard by the SAS in those years and innocent catholics, a lot of whom were family members of republicans, hit equally hard by the Mid-Ulster UVF. Hard to know what was going on, East Tyrone was a very militant area but not as secure as South Armagh so was probably the perfect target in a sense. Probably an informer or two though I don't think they were riddled with them (unlike Derry and to an extent Belfast) - maybe there were informers higher up involved in implicating IRA men but it's hard to know. British surveillance got a lot better near the ceasefires in terms of bugging and what not as well (I mean a lot of IRA men who ended up dead had already done jail time etc. South Armagh was a lot more secure in that regard). Ultimately I don't think the IRA were ever gonna "win" but at the same time the whole thing spiraled out of control, at least it's over now. I don't care about the IRA but I'd like to know what happened at Loughgall, for curiosity's sake.


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    #60
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Tomas, I don't really care what anyone posts in other threads, there was nothing new about collusion in this documentary. If you think there was some new information then please state exactly what



    Im aware that "for anyone interested" collusion has been known about for decades,
    I am also aware that for their are people who still dont belive it happened, just listen to old udr Ken on the progamme the other night, where you stand is up to you,




    Fact is the three men who were killed were members of the IRA and were on a job when they were killed. There were weapons in their car. Whether they fired the weapons or not I don't know and neither do you, I suspect the IRA men never got a chance to fire before they were shot despite the soldiers accounts. No civilians were let near the ambush site in the aftermath of the incident. Even the An Poblacht account says the area around the shooting was sealed off immediately.


    If you have a credible source for your claim that the weapons were in the boot I'd like o see it



    This bit is an echo of the the past when collusion was mentioned by anyone who knew it was happening they were more or less told to keep quiet,



    The ambush at Drumnakilly was one of a series of ambushes carried out successfully by the SAS on the IRA in East Tyrone. My opinion on these shootings is that while they may not have always have been entirely legal they were justifiable. The shooting dead of unarmed IRA members and civilians was never justifiable. Basically, if you live by the sword then you have to be prepared to die by the sword.

    None of this is really connected to the issue of collusion. The only reason the Drumnakilly ambush is being mentioned is because Ken Maginnis has repeatedly claimed he got Thatcher to set it up. Ken Maginnis was a mid-ranking part time member of the UDR and an opposition MP. The notion that he had any say or influence in SAS operations is ridiculous.





    Maybe Im wrong but i think it was you who brought this sas killing up,
    But can you tell what was the difference in.......... a bus load of english soldiers"whom we can now call terrorist" as they were invloved in murder and collusion with the other unionest players,........ being killed by the IRA and a car load of IRA men being killed by the british,
    Did they not also live and die by the sword,


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    #61
    Very Bored
    Registered Users Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Very Bored


    A lot of the perceived double standard of republicans is born of the double standard exhibited by the British, and indeed partitionists, that anyone killed by the IRA was a "martyr/victim" whilst any nationalist or republican killed "deserved it".


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