Collusion: RTE programme on the RUC, UDA etc..

feargale

Did none of you watch this RTE programme last night? I'm surprised that nobody seems to have started a thread on it.

TOMASJ

Yes saw this tonight on RTE1 and I will not be surprised if it is all but ignored by the head in the sand brigade from all walks of life in Ireland,
After all most said when it was taking place in the north that it was all provo propaganda
now that it is being proved no ones interested,
I am of the opinion that what we watched tonight is only the tip the iceberg, and the conflict in the north was kept going for years longer than it should have, by the british dirty tricks squad, that goes right to the top of the establishment.

The Golden Miller

As already implied, most of the partitionist residents on boards have no interest in condemning Britain's involvement in state collusion. It's only interesting when they get to bash republicanism and blame everything on SF/IRA

Grab All Association

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10431974/ link.

porsche959

feargale wrote: »

I'm surprised that nobody seems to have started a thread on it.

I'm not.

Notwithstanding the facts of the IRA being on permanent ceasefire for close to two decades and, according to independent sources, having permanently and irrevocably decommissioned their weapons years ago, and the more intelligent and ethically sound unionists such as David Trimble acknowledging that Ian Paisley and his ilk was a key cause, if not the key cause, of the Troubles, generations have been inculcated by Brit intelligence-infiltrated media and the political establishment with the idea that the evil bad terraists the IRA were the only cause of the Troubles and the Brits were jolly good spiffing old chaps who might have made a few errors of judgement, but if they did it was ultimately for a good cause.

I have found that this forum is particularly subject to that particular psychosis. As Frantz Fanon put it:-

“The oppressed will always believe the worst about themselves.”

Happyman42

Quite clear from the progamme that the Irish gov where well aware what was happening. Instead of publically and stridently rebuking the British they opted for silence and token lip service, while Irish people were being killed and manipulated by a clearly morally corrupt and bullying super power.

Republicans have been saying this for years, I would expect a bit of balance now from those of a partitionist mindset.

K-9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

As already implied, most of the partitionist residents on boards have no interest in condemning Britain's involvement in state collusion. It's only interesting when they get to bash republicanism and blame everything on SF/IRA

As opposed to the first two posts of getting your retaliation in first. Moved to Northern Ireland forum.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

As opposed to the first two posts of getting your retaliation in first. Moved to Northern Ireland forum.

Why? It was quite clear from the programme (interviews with Irish officials) that the Irish goverment where involved here too.

K-9

No reason why that part can't and no doubt will be discussed here. Going from the replies here which are NI focused and the reported post we got, I think its a fair call.

Crooked Jack

Happyman42 wrote: »

Why? It was quite clear from the programme (interviews with Irish officials) that the Irish goverment where involved here too.

Not to mention that the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were a key part of the programme.
Another topic concerning the entire island shunted off into the "piss off, nordies" box. No wonder this wont gain any traction.

As for the programme itself the key thing for me (as I already knew quite a bit of this stuff from the book Lethal Allies) was the "millions" of files locked away in a vault somewhere. By the time they ever do see the light of day (assuming they dont go missing or up in flames first) all those involved will be dead, as will those maimed or bereaved by the british state and its agents. Another empty apology will be issued from westminster and the general consensus from those who denied it ever happened will be "well what does it matter now."

NorthStars

The Golden Miller wrote: »

As already implied, most of the partitionist residents on boards have no interest in condemning Britain's involvement in state collusion. It's only interesting when they get to bash republicanism and blame everything on SF/IRA

Seems to be the way ok.
A foolish poster on another thread earlier seen nothing wrong with Ken McGuinness revelling in the fact that he gave the names of 3 alleged IRA men who were then assassinated 3 days later by the SAS.

K-9

Tbh lads the first few replies would probably put the "partionists" off replying anyway, as Willie John McBride said; "get your retaliation in first lads". If we've a bit more substance and detail to the replies rather than the usual goading of the other side, before they even get a chance to reply, I will move it back.

Crooked Jack

The question is, just like the recent BBC documentary, just like Anne Cadwallader's book, will this programme make a bit of noise and be forgotten by tomorrow or will it prompt some sort of action from either the southern or brit governments.

NorthStars

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The question is, just like the recent BBC documentary, just like Anne Cadwallader's book, will this programme make a bit of noise and be forgotten by tomorrow or will it prompt some sort of action from either the southern or brit governments.

To be honest, sites like this aren't the correct forum for discussing the seriousness of British and possibly Irish state collusion with loyalist terrorists.
It's quite a grown up subject and it would be trivialised by posters here who show nothing but contempt for the people of Northern Ireland.
A few brief posts of mine and the replies, indeed personal attacks, I got on the thread about Sinn Fein confirms this in my view.
This subject should be investigated by the proper authorities, although I won't hold my breath on that happening.

Crooked Jack

NorthStars wrote: »

To be honest, sites like this aren't the correct forum for discussing the seriousness of British and possibly Irish state collusion with loyalist terrorists.
It's quite a grown up subject and it would be trivialised by posters here who show nothing but contempt for the people of Northern Ireland.
A few brief posts of mine and the replies, indeed personal attacks, I got on the thread about Sinn Fein confirms this in my view.
This subject should be investigated by the proper authorities, although I won't hold my breath on that happening.

Indeed. The problem is that the people who will investigate collusion by british authorities will be british authorities. We've already seen the HET brought into total disrepute when they essentially got the cops to investigate the cops.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23161353

What's needed is a totally impartial public inquiry carried out outside the influence of the british

NorthStars

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Indeed. The problem is that the people who will investigate collusion by british authorities will be british authorities. We've already seen the HET brought into total disrepute when they essentially got the cops to investigate the cops.



What's needed is a totally impartial public inquiry carried out outside the influence of the british

Or the Irish if we want an accurate analysis of what happened then.

K-9

NorthStars wrote: »

This subject should be investigated by the proper authorities, although I won't hold my breath on that happening.

Nuala O'Loans comments unfortunately probably confirm the above.

Actually scrap that, they have been investigated by the Ombudsman, Stalker and Stevens to name a few, some cases even multiple times, but she outright said that the problem is at higher up levels.

The inference I got was that it was Whitehall and high up levels of the NIO that didn't want to see through on it. You can have people like Nuala, Stevens and Hugh Orde who mean well and will investigate properly, but like the tribunals here, nothing else will get done about it because of spin doctors, politics and cover ups.

eire4

Happyman42 wrote: »

Quite clear from the progamme that the Irish gov where well aware what was happening. Instead of publically and stridently rebuking the British they opted for silence and token lip service, while Irish people were being killed and manipulated by a clearly morally corrupt and bullying super power.

Republicans have been saying this for years, I would expect a bit of balance now from those of a partitionist mindset.

To be fair and sad to say it but not a surprise at all for me. For decades the government at best turned a blind eye and at times enabled the abuse neglect and even trafficking of thousands of Irish children. They willfully participated in destroying the lives of thousands of Irish children and women so not a surprise they turned a blind eye to the murder of Irish citizens by the British. Their main concern stay in power and maintain the staus quo.


Just like with the current attempts to sweep the horrors of the mother and child homes under the carpet I do not expect to see the current governmnet actually stand up for Irish citizens here either and demand firm answers and releasing of files by the British government.

Sheldons Brain

eire4 wrote: »

To be fair and sad to say it but not a surprise at all for me. For decades the government at best turned a blind eye and at times enabled the abuse neglect and even trafficking of thousands of Irish children. They willfully participated in destroying the lives of thousands of Irish children and women so not a surprise they turned a blind eye to the murder of Irish citizens by the British. Their main concern stay in power and maintain the staus quo.


Just like with the current attempts to sweep the horrors of the mother and child homes under the carpet I do not expect to see the current governmnet actually stand up for Irish citizens here either and demand firm answers and releasing of files by the British government.

Pointless conflation of disconnected issues.

eire4

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Pointless conflation of disconnected issues.

You could take that view point certainly. The point I was making is we have sadly a long history in this country of our governments showing very little interest in the welfare of some of our own citizens.

TOMASJ

I think now we can say without contradiction that the british are the masters of cover up regarding murders carried out by their killer gangs be they in the north of Ireland, Iraq, or elswhere,
Its the apologists I have the problem with, those who have tried for years to shift the blame away from those responsible for some of the worst killings in (Ireland 32 counties) as I said in an eariler post head in the sand when it comes to murder carried out by certain groups.
"They havent gone away you know"

K-9

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Pointless conflation of disconnected issues.

MOD:

And that's a pointless post that is beneath the standard expected in the main politics forum. Try and add something barring a picture!

feargale

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Pointless conflation of disconnected issues.

Whatever about the picture Sheldon has made a valid and timely point. Otherwise where do we go from here, to the Famine, Cromwell......?

feargale

Happyman42 wrote: »

Quite clear from the progamme that the Irish gov where well aware what was happening.

Explain please.

davycc

TOMASJ wrote: »

I think now we can say without contradiction that the british are the masters of cover up regarding murders carried out by their killer gangs be they in the north of Ireland, Iraq, or elswhere,
Its the apologists I have the problem with, those who have tried for years to shift the blame away from those responsible for some of the worst killings in (Ireland 32 counties) as I said in an eariler post head in the sand when it comes to murder carried out by certain groups.
"They havent gone away you know"

+1 without a doubt

NorthStars

It is quite amazing how the programme hasn't seen a bigger reaction both on here and in general.
The British state were colluding with, indeed some of their employees were in fact, loyalist terrorists involved in the assassination of citizen's of our country.
An MP was handing peoples names and details to the prime minister of the UK and within days these people were dispatched by the cowards of the SAS.
I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically.

TOMASJ

NorthStars wrote: »

It is quite amazing how the programme hasn't seen a bigger reaction both on here and in general.
The British state were colluding with, indeed some of their employees were in fact, loyalist terrorists involved in the assassination of citizen's of our country.
An MP was handing peoples names and details to the prime minister of the UK and within days these people were dispatched by the cowards of the SAS.
I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically.

Northstars
Your right about the muted reaction on these events, the same people "mostly in our media" would be having phone in text votes and be shouting from the high heavens if they had an opportuinity to condem republicans on any subject, as I said and belive "head stuck firmly in the sand"
Dont upset the british at any costs.

Happyman42

feargale wrote: »

Explain please.

Noel? Donlon, Irish diplomat interviewed, quite clearly laid out what the Irish gov knew and suspected.

Arsemageddon

NorthStars wrote: »

It is quite amazing how the programme hasn't seen a bigger reaction both on here and in general.

Probably because there was nothing very original in this documentary, most of this information has been in the public domain for a very long time.

It was a well made film and the interviews with some of the main players were interesting. However, overall I think it lacked focus by trying to interview too many people and being too broad in scope.

An MP was handing peoples names and details to the prime minister of the UK and within days these people were dispatched by the cowards of the SAS.

He's been telling this auld yarn for years. I've always thought Ken Maginnis to be an absolute spoofer. The idea that he just rang up Thatcher and she had the men killed for him is ridiculous.

The IRA in Tyrone in the late 80' and early 90s was extremely reckless, their operational security was poor, and they were probably riddled with informers. They repeatedly lost men in ambushes to the British Army travelling to and from operations. The shooting of the Harte brothers and Brian Mullin fall into that category.

They were three members of an ASU who were ambushed and shot dead while armed, them's the breaks. The IRA were willing to kill people regardless of whether they were armed or not, I never understand the 'RA supporters need for a double standard on this.

I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically

Bullsh1t.

Again the double standard, your trying to pedal some form of hierarchy of victimhood while pretending to be impartial.

Elmer Blooker

NorthStars wrote: »

I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically.

Very true. Who remembers the Reaveys and the O'Dowds?

NorthStars

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Bullsh1t.

Again the double standard, your trying to pedal some form of hierarchy of victimhood while pretending to be impartial.

Get off the stage.
The hierarchy of victims is obvious on this board.
Count the responses to this thread and count the ones to threads attacking republicans, the IRA etc etc.
Some people on this site are still under British rule, in their heads......or have a yearning to be.

Arsemageddon

NorthStars wrote: »

Get off the stage.
The hierarchy of victims is obvious on this board.
Count the responses to this thread and count the ones to threads attacking republicans, the IRA etc etc.
Some people on this site are still under British rule, in their heads......or have a yearning to be.

I'm a west brit? That's the best you can come up with?

NorthStars

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I'm a west brit? That's the best you can come up with?

You said that.
Not me.
But, if it's how you feel deep down, don't let me stop you.

Arsemageddon

NorthStars wrote: »

You said that.
Not me.
But, if it's how you feel deep down, don't let me stop you.

Yawn

NorthStars

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Yawn

Not surprised.
You make a point about yourself, claim I said it, and then come up with "Yawn" when that's pointed out to you.
Fair play.

Arsemageddon

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Very true. Who remembers the Reaveys and the O'Dowds?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the killing of the O'Dowds and the Reavys are not remembered. Those killings are one of the clearest cases of collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces.
In the late 90s Ian Paisley in the House of Commons was still trying to peddle the line that they were members of the IRA.

Unfortunately the savagery meted out to those two innocent families was somewhat overshadowed by the Kingsmill Massacre the next day when the IRA murdered ten innocent Protestants in a revenge attack.

For me, the killing of the O'Dowds, the Reavys and the Kingsmill workers stands out as one of the ugliest chapters in the Troubles.

Godge

NorthStars wrote: »

It is quite amazing how the programme hasn't seen a bigger reaction both on here and in general.
The British state were colluding with, indeed some of their employees were in fact, loyalist terrorists involved in the assassination of citizen's of our country.
An MP was handing peoples names and details to the prime minister of the UK and within days these people were dispatched by the cowards of the SAS.
I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically.

I am not amazed at all.

I haven't seen the programme so I won't comment on the details. However, I am not alone in that. Outside of boards, I haven't heard it mentioned by anyone over the last few days.

Q: Why are people down South not too interested in reports about British collusion in the 1970s and 1980s.

A: It has no relevance to today's Ireland as it is something that happened in a different country and in a different era and none of the participants are of relevance to today's Ireland.

Q: In contrast, why is there so much more interest in things like Garda McCabe, Mairia Cahill and Paudie McGahan?

A: Because all three cases are of much more recent vintage, the political party linked to them is putting itself forward for election in this State, some of the alleged participants (Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris) are still active politically in this State and people want answers.

The general point is that the Irish public may well accept that the British did equally bad, less bad or even worse things than the IRA (take your pick depending on your viewpoint) but the British are not standing for election down here and do not need therefore to explain their behaviour.

I will once again be pilloried on here for these views and accused of all sorts of partitionist and collusion-type behaviour but the inability of the SF heirarchy and their supporters to understand this viewpoint is one of the reasons their political support appears to have peaked.

However fair or unfair you may think it is, Sinn Fein is going to be held to a greater level of accountability, transparency and explanation by the Irish electorate than any foreign Government. All of which explains the muted reaction to the programme.

Arsemageddon

Godge wrote: »

I am not amazed at all.

I haven't seen the programme so I won't comment on the details. However, I am not alone in that. Outside of boards, I haven't heard it mentioned by anyone over the last few days.

Q: Why are people down South not too interested in reports about British collusion in the 1970s and 1980s.

A: It has no relevance to today's Ireland as it is something that happened in a different country and in a different era and none of the participants are of relevance to today's Ireland.

Q: In contrast, why is there so much more interest in things like Garda McCabe, Mairia Cahill and Paudie McGahan?

A: Because all three cases are of much more recent vintage, the political party linked to them is putting itself forward for election in this State, some of the alleged participants (Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris) are still active politically in this State and people want answers.

The general point is that the Irish public may well accept that the British did equally bad, less bad or even worse things than the IRA (take your pick depending on your viewpoint) but the British are not standing for election down here and do not need therefore to explain their behaviour.

I will once again be pilloried on here for these views and accused of all sorts of partitionist and collusion-type behaviour but the inability of the SF heirarchy and their supporters to understand this viewpoint is one of the reasons their political support appears to have peaked.

However fair or unfair you may think it is, Sinn Fein is going to be held to a greater level of accountability, transparency and explanation by the Irish electorate than any foreign Government. All of which explains the muted reaction to the programme.

What have Sinn Fein, Maria Cahill and Paudie McGahan got to do with collusion between loyalists and the Security forces?

FFS, is it not possible to discuss anything pertaining to Northern Ireland without being dragged off topic in the first few pages?

NorthStars

Godge wrote: »

I am not amazed at all.

I haven't seen the programme so I won't comment on the details.

Grand so.

NorthStars

I just noticed that the Sinn Fein thread has been closed.
Is this the next stop for people to vent their prejudices?

Just so as we know, this thread is about British collusion with loyalist terrorists.

Godge

Arsemageddon wrote: »

What have Sinn Fein, Maria Cahill and Paudie McGahan got to do with collusion between loyalists and the Security forces?

FFS, is it not possible to discuss anything pertaining to Northern Ireland without being dragged off topic in the first few pages?

Nothing.

However, there were a number of posters commenting on the lack of reaction to the programme both on boards and in wider society. I was explaining that lack of reaction. If it went off topic, it was when people started talking about the reaction to the programme rather than the programme itself.

I deliberately didn't comment on the programme itself but my choice to watch something else is indicative of the lack of general public interest.

Crooked Jack

Godge wrote: »

I am not amazed at all.

I haven't seen the programme so I won't comment on the details. However, I am not alone in that. Outside of boards, I haven't heard it mentioned by anyone over the last few days.

Q: Why are people down South not too interested in reports about British collusion in the 1970s and 1980s.

A: It has no relevance to today's Ireland as it is something that happened in a different country and in a different era and none of the participants are of relevance to today's Ireland.

id imagine families in dublin, monaghan, dundalk and anywhere else in "your" country (cause youre totally not a partitionist) that the british sent their agents to enact their own brand of justice would disagree with you there

Godge

Crooked Jack wrote: »

id imagine families in dublin, monaghan, dundalk and anywhere else in "your" country (cause youre totally not a partitionist) that the british sent their agents to enact their own brand of justice would disagree with you there

If that was the case, there would be nothing else on Joe Duffy or the tabloids.

The absence of public outrage only makes my point.

Sure there will be some people who are personally affected by it - the same way that there are people still affected by programmes about the Stardust fire - but there isn't huge public disquiet. The mistake people often make who are caught up in personal outrage about something is to think that lots of others share their view. If you want another example of it, just look at any public discussion about Irish Water.

Arsemageddon

Godge wrote: »

Nothing.

However, there were a number of posters commenting on the lack of reaction to the programme both on boards and in wider society. I was explaining that lack of reaction. If it went off topic, it was when people started talking about the reaction to the programme rather than the programme itself.

I deliberately didn't comment on the programme itself but my choice to watch something else is indicative of the lack of general public interest.

You didn't watch it, you have no interest in the subject - fair enough.

Personally I think the involvement of the British security forces in one of the worst massacres in the history of our state along with other murders and bombings, the extra-judicial execution of people in Northern Ireland and the complicity of the British state in terrorism should be of great interest to the people of this state.

NorthStars

Sinn Fein, The Stardust fire, Irish Water.
All dragged into a discussion on British collusion with loyalist terrorists.
Strange place this.

mg1982

Like was said before, i dont think the programme showed anything we didnt already know. In my opinion i dont see much point in repeatedly dragging up stuff that happened in the past. For the sake of peace in NI i think it should be a clean slate from now on.

NorthStars

Anyone with even the slightest interest is finding out about the troubles and why it wen't on for so long should really watch this programme.
The 'nasty republicans caused it all' narrative really is down to a lazy servile attitude and an unwillingness to upset the British.
In some peoples minds the British have never left the ROI, and if all's told would rather be part of the union.

Godge

Arsemageddon wrote: »

You didn't watch it, you have no interest in the subject - fair enough.

Personally I think the involvement of the British security forces in one of the worst massacres in the history of our state along with other murders and bombings, the extra-judicial execution of people in Northern Ireland and the complicity of the British state in terrorism should be of great interest to the people of this state.

You can argue that it should be but the truth is that it isn't.

Godge

NorthStars wrote: »

Sinn Fein, The Stardust fire, Irish Water.
All dragged into a discussion on British collusion with loyalist terrorists.
Strange place this.

Not really. Usually in a discussion it is helpful to use examples to help in getting your point across.

It is not like a train track where you can only go where some people say you should go.

NorthStars

Godge wrote: »

Not really. Usually in a discussion it is helpful to use examples to help in getting your point across.

It is not like a train track where you can only go where some people say you should go.

I watched the programme on collusion.
Sinn Fein weren't mentioned.
The Stardust fire wasn't mentioned.
Irish Water wasn't mentioned.
Why would you, or anyone, try or bother to bring these subjects into a thread discussing a programme about British state collusion with Loyalist terrorists?
Is the Sinn Fein thread still locked or something?

NorthStars

Actually, don't answer the question.
I've just checked and the Sinn Fein thread is still locked.
It's a strange mindset that feels the need to bring Sinn Fein into every discussion.
Still, each to their own I suppose.