Collusion: RTE programme on the RUC, UDA etc..

feargale

Did none of you watch this RTE programme last night? I'm surprised that nobody seems to have started a thread on it.

TOMASJ

Yes saw this tonight on RTE1 and I will not be surprised if it is all but ignored by the head in the sand brigade from all walks of life in Ireland,
After all most said when it was taking place in the north that it was all provo propaganda
now that it is being proved no ones interested,
I am of the opinion that what we watched tonight is only the tip the iceberg, and the conflict in the north was kept going for years longer than it should have, by the british dirty tricks squad, that goes right to the top of the establishment.

The Golden Miller

As already implied, most of the partitionist residents on boards have no interest in condemning Britain's involvement in state collusion. It's only interesting when they get to bash republicanism and blame everything on SF/IRA

Grab All Association

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10431974/ link.

porsche959

feargale wrote: »

I'm surprised that nobody seems to have started a thread on it.

I'm not.

Notwithstanding the facts of the IRA being on permanent ceasefire for close to two decades and, according to independent sources, having permanently and irrevocably decommissioned their weapons years ago, and the more intelligent and ethically sound unionists such as David Trimble acknowledging that Ian Paisley and his ilk was a key cause, if not the key cause, of the Troubles, generations have been inculcated by Brit intelligence-infiltrated media and the political establishment with the idea that the evil bad terraists the IRA were the only cause of the Troubles and the Brits were jolly good spiffing old chaps who might have made a few errors of judgement, but if they did it was ultimately for a good cause.

I have found that this forum is particularly subject to that particular psychosis. As Frantz Fanon put it:-

“The oppressed will always believe the worst about themselves.”

Happyman42

Quite clear from the progamme that the Irish gov where well aware what was happening. Instead of publically and stridently rebuking the British they opted for silence and token lip service, while Irish people were being killed and manipulated by a clearly morally corrupt and bullying super power.

Republicans have been saying this for years, I would expect a bit of balance now from those of a partitionist mindset.

K-9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

As already implied, most of the partitionist residents on boards have no interest in condemning Britain's involvement in state collusion. It's only interesting when they get to bash republicanism and blame everything on SF/IRA

As opposed to the first two posts of getting your retaliation in first. Moved to Northern Ireland forum.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

As opposed to the first two posts of getting your retaliation in first. Moved to Northern Ireland forum.

Why? It was quite clear from the programme (interviews with Irish officials) that the Irish goverment where involved here too.

K-9

No reason why that part can't and no doubt will be discussed here. Going from the replies here which are NI focused and the reported post we got, I think its a fair call.

Crooked Jack

Happyman42 wrote: »

Why? It was quite clear from the programme (interviews with Irish officials) that the Irish goverment where involved here too.

Not to mention that the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were a key part of the programme.
Another topic concerning the entire island shunted off into the "piss off, nordies" box. No wonder this wont gain any traction.

As for the programme itself the key thing for me (as I already knew quite a bit of this stuff from the book Lethal Allies) was the "millions" of files locked away in a vault somewhere. By the time they ever do see the light of day (assuming they dont go missing or up in flames first) all those involved will be dead, as will those maimed or bereaved by the british state and its agents. Another empty apology will be issued from westminster and the general consensus from those who denied it ever happened will be "well what does it matter now."

NorthStars

The Golden Miller wrote: »

As already implied, most of the partitionist residents on boards have no interest in condemning Britain's involvement in state collusion. It's only interesting when they get to bash republicanism and blame everything on SF/IRA

Seems to be the way ok.
A foolish poster on another thread earlier seen nothing wrong with Ken McGuinness revelling in the fact that he gave the names of 3 alleged IRA men who were then assassinated 3 days later by the SAS.

K-9

Tbh lads the first few replies would probably put the "partionists" off replying anyway, as Willie John McBride said; "get your retaliation in first lads". If we've a bit more substance and detail to the replies rather than the usual goading of the other side, before they even get a chance to reply, I will move it back.

Crooked Jack

The question is, just like the recent BBC documentary, just like Anne Cadwallader's book, will this programme make a bit of noise and be forgotten by tomorrow or will it prompt some sort of action from either the southern or brit governments.

NorthStars

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The question is, just like the recent BBC documentary, just like Anne Cadwallader's book, will this programme make a bit of noise and be forgotten by tomorrow or will it prompt some sort of action from either the southern or brit governments.

To be honest, sites like this aren't the correct forum for discussing the seriousness of British and possibly Irish state collusion with loyalist terrorists.
It's quite a grown up subject and it would be trivialised by posters here who show nothing but contempt for the people of Northern Ireland.
A few brief posts of mine and the replies, indeed personal attacks, I got on the thread about Sinn Fein confirms this in my view.
This subject should be investigated by the proper authorities, although I won't hold my breath on that happening.

Crooked Jack

NorthStars wrote: »

To be honest, sites like this aren't the correct forum for discussing the seriousness of British and possibly Irish state collusion with loyalist terrorists.
It's quite a grown up subject and it would be trivialised by posters here who show nothing but contempt for the people of Northern Ireland.
A few brief posts of mine and the replies, indeed personal attacks, I got on the thread about Sinn Fein confirms this in my view.
This subject should be investigated by the proper authorities, although I won't hold my breath on that happening.

Indeed. The problem is that the people who will investigate collusion by british authorities will be british authorities. We've already seen the HET brought into total disrepute when they essentially got the cops to investigate the cops.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23161353

What's needed is a totally impartial public inquiry carried out outside the influence of the british

NorthStars

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Indeed. The problem is that the people who will investigate collusion by british authorities will be british authorities. We've already seen the HET brought into total disrepute when they essentially got the cops to investigate the cops.



What's needed is a totally impartial public inquiry carried out outside the influence of the british

Or the Irish if we want an accurate analysis of what happened then.

K-9

NorthStars wrote: »

This subject should be investigated by the proper authorities, although I won't hold my breath on that happening.

Nuala O'Loans comments unfortunately probably confirm the above.

Actually scrap that, they have been investigated by the Ombudsman, Stalker and Stevens to name a few, some cases even multiple times, but she outright said that the problem is at higher up levels.

The inference I got was that it was Whitehall and high up levels of the NIO that didn't want to see through on it. You can have people like Nuala, Stevens and Hugh Orde who mean well and will investigate properly, but like the tribunals here, nothing else will get done about it because of spin doctors, politics and cover ups.

eire4

Happyman42 wrote: »

Quite clear from the progamme that the Irish gov where well aware what was happening. Instead of publically and stridently rebuking the British they opted for silence and token lip service, while Irish people were being killed and manipulated by a clearly morally corrupt and bullying super power.

Republicans have been saying this for years, I would expect a bit of balance now from those of a partitionist mindset.

To be fair and sad to say it but not a surprise at all for me. For decades the government at best turned a blind eye and at times enabled the abuse neglect and even trafficking of thousands of Irish children. They willfully participated in destroying the lives of thousands of Irish children and women so not a surprise they turned a blind eye to the murder of Irish citizens by the British. Their main concern stay in power and maintain the staus quo.


Just like with the current attempts to sweep the horrors of the mother and child homes under the carpet I do not expect to see the current governmnet actually stand up for Irish citizens here either and demand firm answers and releasing of files by the British government.

Sheldons Brain

eire4 wrote: »

To be fair and sad to say it but not a surprise at all for me. For decades the government at best turned a blind eye and at times enabled the abuse neglect and even trafficking of thousands of Irish children. They willfully participated in destroying the lives of thousands of Irish children and women so not a surprise they turned a blind eye to the murder of Irish citizens by the British. Their main concern stay in power and maintain the staus quo.


Just like with the current attempts to sweep the horrors of the mother and child homes under the carpet I do not expect to see the current governmnet actually stand up for Irish citizens here either and demand firm answers and releasing of files by the British government.

Pointless conflation of disconnected issues.

eire4

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Pointless conflation of disconnected issues.

You could take that view point certainly. The point I was making is we have sadly a long history in this country of our governments showing very little interest in the welfare of some of our own citizens.

TOMASJ

I think now we can say without contradiction that the british are the masters of cover up regarding murders carried out by their killer gangs be they in the north of Ireland, Iraq, or elswhere,
Its the apologists I have the problem with, those who have tried for years to shift the blame away from those responsible for some of the worst killings in (Ireland 32 counties) as I said in an eariler post head in the sand when it comes to murder carried out by certain groups.
"They havent gone away you know"

K-9

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Pointless conflation of disconnected issues.

MOD:

And that's a pointless post that is beneath the standard expected in the main politics forum. Try and add something barring a picture!

feargale

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Pointless conflation of disconnected issues.

Whatever about the picture Sheldon has made a valid and timely point. Otherwise where do we go from here, to the Famine, Cromwell......?

feargale

Happyman42 wrote: »

Quite clear from the progamme that the Irish gov where well aware what was happening.

Explain please.

davycc

TOMASJ wrote: »

I think now we can say without contradiction that the british are the masters of cover up regarding murders carried out by their killer gangs be they in the north of Ireland, Iraq, or elswhere,
Its the apologists I have the problem with, those who have tried for years to shift the blame away from those responsible for some of the worst killings in (Ireland 32 counties) as I said in an eariler post head in the sand when it comes to murder carried out by certain groups.
"They havent gone away you know"

+1 without a doubt

NorthStars

It is quite amazing how the programme hasn't seen a bigger reaction both on here and in general.
The British state were colluding with, indeed some of their employees were in fact, loyalist terrorists involved in the assassination of citizen's of our country.
An MP was handing peoples names and details to the prime minister of the UK and within days these people were dispatched by the cowards of the SAS.
I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically.

TOMASJ

NorthStars wrote: »

It is quite amazing how the programme hasn't seen a bigger reaction both on here and in general.
The British state were colluding with, indeed some of their employees were in fact, loyalist terrorists involved in the assassination of citizen's of our country.
An MP was handing peoples names and details to the prime minister of the UK and within days these people were dispatched by the cowards of the SAS.
I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically.

Northstars
Your right about the muted reaction on these events, the same people "mostly in our media" would be having phone in text votes and be shouting from the high heavens if they had an opportuinity to condem republicans on any subject, as I said and belive "head stuck firmly in the sand"
Dont upset the british at any costs.

Happyman42

feargale wrote: »

Explain please.

Noel? Donlon, Irish diplomat interviewed, quite clearly laid out what the Irish gov knew and suspected.

Arsemageddon

NorthStars wrote: »

It is quite amazing how the programme hasn't seen a bigger reaction both on here and in general.

Probably because there was nothing very original in this documentary, most of this information has been in the public domain for a very long time.

It was a well made film and the interviews with some of the main players were interesting. However, overall I think it lacked focus by trying to interview too many people and being too broad in scope.

An MP was handing peoples names and details to the prime minister of the UK and within days these people were dispatched by the cowards of the SAS.

He's been telling this auld yarn for years. I've always thought Ken Maginnis to be an absolute spoofer. The idea that he just rang up Thatcher and she had the men killed for him is ridiculous.

The IRA in Tyrone in the late 80' and early 90s was extremely reckless, their operational security was poor, and they were probably riddled with informers. They repeatedly lost men in ambushes to the British Army travelling to and from operations. The shooting of the Harte brothers and Brian Mullin fall into that category.

They were three members of an ASU who were ambushed and shot dead while armed, them's the breaks. The IRA were willing to kill people regardless of whether they were armed or not, I never understand the 'RA supporters need for a double standard on this.

I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically

Bullsh1t.

Again the double standard, your trying to pedal some form of hierarchy of victimhood while pretending to be impartial.

Elmer Blooker

NorthStars wrote: »

I guess if your name isn't McConville or McCabe, you don't matter in this country and are of no use politically.

Very true. Who remembers the Reaveys and the O'Dowds?

NorthStars

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Bullsh1t.

Again the double standard, your trying to pedal some form of hierarchy of victimhood while pretending to be impartial.

Get off the stage.
The hierarchy of victims is obvious on this board.
Count the responses to this thread and count the ones to threads attacking republicans, the IRA etc etc.
Some people on this site are still under British rule, in their heads......or have a yearning to be.