Car free Dublin City Centre?

Muahahaha

markpb wrote: »

As an aside, Brown Thomas don't own the BT car park, they just license their name to the car park operators. They obviously have a vested interest in keeping it there but if it closes, it doesn't mean that they can expand the shop into it.

Yeah I'd heard that before but wasnt sure of it. I think there might have been some mention in the plans of relocating car parks to somewhere around Hueston, it wasnt very concrete but was mentioned. No doubt if DCC were to do a land swap with the car park operator for a park and ride connected to Hueston and the Luas then BTs would be all over the space at the back of their shop.

rp wrote: »

They can use the bike/bus lane if they are "on business", so they can get away with cruising without a fare. What the can't do is use it for commuting to and from work, but I don't imagine anyone has ever been pullled for it.

AFAIK taxi drivers always have an addressed envelope in their glove box so if ever they were stopped by Gardai for being passenger-less yet driving in a bus lane they can just show the envelope and say they're on a courier job to deliver it at the address. As a result Gardai tend not to stop them.

bilbot79

People will save a lot of taxi fare by walking from one end of the city centre to the other instead of picking up the taxi in some stupid place. Taxi drivers shod just work one side of the city in an electric car

RainyDay

Muahahaha wrote: »

AFAIK taxi drivers always have an addressed envelope in their glove box so if ever they were stopped by Gardai for being passenger-less yet driving in a bus lane they can just show the envelope and say they're on a courier job to deliver it at the address. As a result Gardai tend not to stop them.

Do Gardai really let them away with a mickey-mouse trick like this? Surely it would be fairly easy to look for evidence of the courier job on the taxi company system, or for the Gardai just to prosecute and let the driver show evidence in Court?

ted1

Taxi drivers are allowed to use bus lanes in the course of business , touting for fares allow this. So yes they can use bus lanes

roverrules

RainyDay wrote: »

Do Gardai really let them away with a mickey-mouse trick like this? Surely it would be fairly easy to look for evidence of the courier job on the taxi company system, or for the Gardai just to prosecute and let the driver show evidence in Court?

I rememb r reading somewhere that if they are on a package delivery they can't use the bus lanes, I'll see if I can find it later

ROK ON

What I like about the plan is the explicit attempt to create incentives and disincentives.
I work in the city centre in a building with a lot of car park spaces. Every so often I drive to work. It's not as difficult or as stressful as one would imagine if driving in early. I think that this is partly the reason that the roads are so conjested.
For short journeys society needs to create disincentives for certain transports and incentives for others. This will take years but is a step in right direction.
What else is needed:
Joined up public transport ticketing- if people are being asked to use more than one bus/Luas then to get from suburbs to town then that should cost one journey.
Secondly public transport should be cheap and private transport should be expensive.
Need more buses in more areas - the tailbacks on N7 and N4 every day are going into city- it will take a lot of buses and trains to replace these.
Commuter trai. Travel is expensive - it needs to be much more affordable. No point in asking folks to give up the car if it is going to cost them more.

A step in the right direction. We need to get to the point where the average person drives to city centre as an exception rather than an average.

roverrules

roverrules wrote: »

I rememb r reading somewhere that if they are on a package delivery they can't use the bus lanes, I'll see if I can find it later

Found this
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/bus-lanes/

A taxi can use a normal (with-flow) bus lane only while it is operating as an SPSV – carrying a passenger, on the way to pick up a pre-booked customer, or plying for hire. Taxis must not use bus lanes if they are not operating as an SPSV – for example, driving home at the end of a shift, travelling on personal business, or transporting only goods and not passengers.

magicbastarder

which basically rules out 2% of taxi business.
the funny thing is in dublin, at about the time i'm getting the last bus home, it seems slower to get down aungier street/georges street, than it does during rush hour; part of the problem is the deregulated taxi system which means anyone who wants to earn a couple of extra bob at the weekend can call themselves a taxi driver for a few hours a week, even if they've not a clue about the geography of dublin.

Tenzor07

magicbastarder wrote: »

the funny thing is in dublin, at about the time i'm getting the last bus home, it seems slower to get down aungier street/georges street, than it does during rush hour; part of the problem is the deregulated taxi system which means anyone who wants to earn a couple of extra bob at the weekend can call themselves a taxi driver for a few hours a week, even if they've not a clue about the geography of dublin.

I agree, it's possible to walk from College green to Rathmines just by jumping on top of taxi's without your feet touching the ground at weekend nights..

Taxi's are the worst sort of public transport, low volume, usually just two people in the cab, are very expensive, and due to the sheer numbers of them driving around and parking in the small city centre streets clogging roads they should definitely be restricted from the college green area..

magicbastarder

that said, it looks like the new luas line expected to be announced is going to go past my door. which is great news, even if it's a compromise.

Qualitymark

Still drooling over the thought of the E Line Luas, which has been long-fingered for now, but would be a great public transport service. The economists claimed to "find" that it would have a €2m fares shortfall; they're out of their minds - a Luas serving Clanbrassil Street, Harold's Cross, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Dundrum and their hinterlands would be massively used, and would take lots and lots of cars out of the city.

Many motorists already drive in from the country, leave their cars in Terenure or Harold's Cross back roads and take buses into the city.

buffalo

While I'm not building up any kind of hope after the recent quays consultation debacle ("everyone supports this option... okay, but we're not sure about it anyway ...oh look, there's a building in the way!"), it's encouraging that this measure is also garnering plenty of public support:

The Council has received more than 1,300 online responses within the first three weeks and the indications show a 3 to 1 support for reducing traffic volumes in city centre

http://www.dublincity.ie/dublin-city-transport-study-extension-consultation-period-announced-0

tomasrojo

Hopefully this isn't the underlying attitude of the participants:
http://www.theonion.com/article/report-98-percent-of-us-commuters-favor-public-tra-1434

tomasrojo

How Groningen invented a cycling template for cities all over the world
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world?CMP=share_btn_link

“Many people who lived in the old neighbourhoods were enthusiastic about our ideas. They saw we were changing things on a great scale. But there was also fierce opposition, especially from businessmen and shopkeepers who were convinced it would mean the end of their business if cars could no longer cross the centre. We tried to explain that we wanted to create a pleasant
urban environment that eventually would attract more people to the centre and to their shops. But they were convinced they would go bankrupt if customers would not be able reach their shop by car,” says Van den Berg. “In the end, it turned out they were wrong.”

Bruin Thomas being one of the most vocal, I assume.

tomasrojo

Interesting that Van den Berg, the politician responsible for the redesign of the radical new traffic flow in the Groningen, needed police protection. Bloody militant cyclists. I mean, shopkeepers and motorists.

Leroy42

This is a good video of Chris Boardman in Utrecht.

Seems like it can be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDLb6biq39A

Qualitymark

Interesting that the Dutch started with Car-Free Sundays, and the worried shopkeepers realised that they sold more when there weren't cars.
It's funny how you think differently when you have a car - you imagine that the "big shop" requires lots of space and an engine to carry it. In actuality, most of our shopping fits on a bike, and big things like fridges are usually delivered anyway.

Leroy42

Is there anybody that buys stuff in town that needs a car to get it home? I don't mean does it car make it easier, but is it actually required?

I doubt many, except those that live in the CC, actually do their weekly food shop in town. Clothes etc, except in the most extreme cases are usually a few bags at most. AS you say the bigger items, furniture etc, are delivered anyway (or should be if the shops want to remain in business).

Of course the above does not take into account the public transport, but I'm trying to keep that separate.

Qualitymark

Public transport is a disaster, mainly because the fares are so dear. If you've two kids and a couple of friends, taking the family into town for a wander through the museum or a bit of window-shopping is shockingly expensive. Family tickets - that could be loose about guest children - would bring lots more people into the city centre, with their wallets in their pockets and hungry little mouths to feed.

mirrormatrix

Leroy42 wrote: »

Is there anybody that buys stuff in town that needs a car to get it home? I don't mean does it car make it easier, but is it actually required?

No, but a bike sure isn't suitable. You can fit bugger all in a backpack and, even if I had panniers, I still wouldn't leave my bike parked in Dublin CC for fear of it not being there when I come back.

Am I the only one that thinks this is a terrible idea? Not only are they cutting off transport to the city centre, but they are cutting off transport through the CC. My only options to get to work at the minute are a 40km round trip cycle or a car journey across the east link. When this all goes ahead, the only ways to get from north to south of the city by car are going to be the east link and the M50, which will create all sorts of traffic issues. Not all of us have the luxury of working in the city centre.

tomasrojo

mirrormatrix wrote: »

No, but a bike sure isn't suitable. You can fit bugger all in a backpack and, even if I had panniers, I still wouldn't leave my bike parked in Dublin CC for fear of it not being there when I come back.

Well, I do my weekly shop by bike. But I have a bike-hod goods trailer, plus a pannier for anything left over when the trailer is full. I only occasionally meet people with goods trailers, but they really make a bike more versatile.

Not sure what weight the weekly shop is, but it's a fair bit. Maybe 40kg?

I got long curtain rails home with the goods trailer as well. They stuck up in the air diagonally, so they were very easy to carry.

I used the child trailer to get all kinds of things home from Ikea too. Got a kid's bed and mattress home. And a rug and full-size mattress on another occasion. And a Trofast storage unit, though that one was a bit heavy, I think.

You see this sort of thing in the Netherlands a lot more than here, obviously.

I leave my bike locked in town all the time. You definitely can leave it long enough to do a shop, if you have a very good and a good lock on it, used with common sense. (Depends on what sort of bike it is. I have a pretty good bike, but it isn't very desirable, I think.)

tomasrojo

Qualitymark wrote: »

Public transport is a disaster, mainly because the fares are so dear. If you've two kids and a couple of friends, taking the family into town for a wander through the museum or a bit of window-shopping is shockingly expensive. Family tickets - that could be loose about guest children - would bring lots more people into the city centre, with their wallets in their pockets and hungry little mouths to feed.

Yeah, that's a good idea. I wouldn't say public transport in Dublin is a disaster though. I've used it quite happily for years.

The problem is if you have a car, so many costs are up front, so almost any family journey after up-front costs is cheaper by car than public transport. If you don't own a car, I think public transport would end up cheaper over the course of a year. I use GoCar to get the best of both worlds. Only costs me a few hundred a year in practice.

mirrormatrix

tomasrojo wrote: »

Well, I do my weekly shop by bike. But I have a bike-hod goods trailer, plus a pannier for anything left over when the trailer is full. I only occasionally meet people with goods trailers, but they really make a bike more versatile.

Not sure what weight the weekly shop is, but it's a fair bit. Maybe 40kg?

I got long curtain rails home with the goods trailer as well. They stuck up in the air diagonally, so they were very easy to carry.

I used the child trailer to get all kinds of things home from Ikea too. Got a kid's bed and mattress home. And a rug and full-size mattress on another occasion. And a Trofast storage unit, though that one was a bit heavy, I think.

You see this sort of thing in the Netherlands a lot more than here, obviously.

I leave my bike locked in town all the time. You definitely can leave it long enough to do a shop, if you have a very good and a good lock on it, used with common sense.

Yeah, panniers do make life a lot easier for that type of thing I guess. I had them for a while but found them to be a bit of a nuisance. The fact that the ones I had were always making noises didn't help. Maybe i'll give them a go again. The few occassions where I have gone to the shops i've ended up with a couple of bags hanging off the handlebars which is just a nightmare.

Agree with you on the lock side of things. Trouble is, without panniers, carrying a fahgeddabouit lock and another lock on your back for any sort of distance is just pure agony.

rp

Re: parking up to shop. When are we getting those Japanese multistory-subterranean bike parks?

Qualitymark

I use buses too, but they're dear, and the exact-change thing or keeping a Leap card topped up are a real pain. If you're bringing a bunch of kids into town, you can't put the whole lot on your Leap and have to work out exactly how much the fare is going to be…

Panniers or a basket are better than a backpack, which moves your centre of gravity up making you a little less stable. I use a Reisenthel handlebar bag which carries a vast amount - double what you can get on a basket - and can be clipped on and off so it's not there all the time; I have an old pannier on the back in case of overflow.

Was just musing on how a more open and liberal society has changed Ireland. People now bungee a big pack of toilet rolls onto their back carrier and it invokes no comments or stares; even 20 years ago people would have sniggered at the evidence that the person carrying it uses a toilet.

tomasrojo

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Trouble is, without panniers, carrying a fahgeddabouit lock and another lock on your back for any sort of distance is just pure agony.

Depends on what rear rack you have. There is a handlebar-mounting option someone posted before.

Definitely try not to carry stuff in bags on your handlebars, I think. I know a few people who've come a cropper that way.

Tenzor07

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks this is a terrible idea? Not only are they cutting off transport to the city centre, but they are cutting off transport through the CC. My only options to get to work at the minute are a 40km round trip cycle or a car journey across the east link. When this all goes ahead, the only ways to get from north to south of the city by car are going to be the east link and the M50, which will create all sorts of traffic issues. Not all of us have the luxury of working in the city centre.

Yes, I would say so, it's not cutting off "transport", buses and Luas are transport.

I mean, it's only a very small area in the direct centre of the city, having large volumes of single occupancy private vehicles is not only bad for the environment, it's bad for city residents health.
It's expensive for councils to maintain the roads/traffic signals, for the Gardai to provide staff to police incidents involving cars and monitor motor traffic flows.
It's bad for business to have large volumes of motor traffic making it unpleasant for tourists and pedestrians coming to the city having to almost walk out onto the road on sections of narrow/busy pavement areas. Not to mention the noise and pollution along with danger crossing roads.
I could go on...

40km round trip, so 20k each way is at a moderate pace less than an hour by bicycle, so probably the same or longer by private car..

tomasrojo

Qualitymark wrote: »

I use buses too, but they're dear, and the exact-change thing or keeping a Leap card topped up are a real pain. If you're bringing a bunch of kids into town, you can't put the whole lot on your Leap and have to work out exactly how much the fare is going to be…

Yeah, my kids are still young enough that nobody tries to check them for tickets. We did get the kids Leap card for the older one. I live near a Luas stop, so keeping the card topped up is easy. There's an option to automatically have it topped up from your credit card when your reserve drops below €10.

Qualitymark wrote: »

Was just musing on how a more open and liberal society has changed Ireland. People now bungee a big pack of toilet rolls onto their back carrier and it invokes no comments or stares; even 20 years ago people would have sniggered at the evidence that the person carrying it uses a toilet.

Good point. I never thought about that, but it's true.

tomasrojo

There's another Fahgettaboudit option:
http://www.bikeblognyc.com/2012/12/pocket-full-of-kryptonite-locks-giveaway-on-twitter-and-instagram/
Transit h-bar carrier. Posted by beauf before.

Qualitymark

Depends on the bag on your handlebars. I've never (touch wood) had a problem with the centrally-mounted and wire-strengthened Reisenthel handlebar bag, but dangly shopping bags on the handles, yes, they can drag you off centre.