Free Travel Pass being Scanned on Bus Eireann

bigredone · 20-01-2017 10:24pm

Annual DART/Commuter Rail, Dublin Bus and Luas €2180.00 this does not include BE unlike the FTP.

As per the Joe Duffy show, the Social welfare pays €80 a year for this.
No wonder fare paying passengers are charged so much.

As one of the drivers on the show said, imagine if 1,200,000 people in the state got free electricity and the Social welfare only paid €80 a year per person for it to the ESB.
The ESB would be in dire financial trouble very soon.

bigredone · 20-01-2017 10:26pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Wrong.
FTP will state S for spouse of C for Companion.
The point i am making is the vast majority of passes are for 2 people to travel for free.

infogiver · 20-01-2017 11:41pm

bigredone wrote: »

Wrong.
FTP will state S for spouse of C for Companion.
The point i am making is the vast majority of passes are for 2 people to travel for free.

FTP for people in receipt of Carers allowance is for the Carer only

joeysoap · 21-01-2017 1:13am

infogiver wrote: »

FTP for people in receipt of Carers allowance is for the Carer only

If bus drivers say there is abuse I believe them but does it really matter, this is government policy and if it changes there will no doubt ample debate on the merits/abuse/benefits of the scheme.

infogiver · 21-01-2017 1:19am

joeysoap wrote: »

And presumably the person who is being cared for would have FTA, (otherwise the carer would have FTA for .........)

If bus drivers say there is abuse I believe them but does it really matter, this is government policy and if it changes there will no doubt ample debate on the merits/abuse/benefits of the scheme.

If the person being cared for is 16+ then mostly yes they would have their own free travel
But there is no free travel for children under 16

Gatling · 21-01-2017 1:24am

joeysoap wrote: »

If bus drivers say there is abuse I believe them but does it really matter, this is government policy and if it changes there will no doubt ample debate on the merits/abuse/benefits of the scheme.

Try telling that to the drivers who can't operate the drivers ticket readers ,

bigredone · 21-01-2017 9:47am

Gatling wrote: »

Try telling that to the drivers who can't operate the drivers ticket readers ,

News Flash!

The old paper passes are still valid, the ones that you just show to drivers.
Until these are no longer accepted the new credit card FTP will not be compulsory
to scan on the drivers ticket machine to get a spouse/companion ticket.
Hence some drivers don't bother to issue ticket or know how too as it is not needed.

End of news flash!

punisher5112 · 21-01-2017 12:35pm

infogiver wrote: »

If the person being cared for is 16+ then mostly yes they would have their own free travel
But there is no free travel for children under 16

Wrong....

There is definitely children under 16 with passes.

Autistic children have them along with other medical and disability issues also those in care where HSE is the ones looking after them.

infogiver · 21-01-2017 12:56pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Wrong....

There is definitely children under 16 with passes.

Autistic children have them along with other medical and disability issues also those in care where HSE is the ones looking after them.

Your wrong
Free Travel as administrated by DSP (which is what this thread is about) is not available to children under 16.
Here are the rules for Free Travel:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/204_Free-Travel.aspx#l1f4da
People only qualify for DA at 16.

punisher5112 · 21-01-2017 1:03pm

infogiver wrote: »

Your wrong
Free Travel as administrated by DSP (which is what this thread is about) is not available to children under 16.
Here are the rules for Free Travel:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/204_Free-Travel.aspx#l1f4da
People only qualify for DA at 16.

I can tell you for a fact there are and believe it or not if you wish.

joeysoap · 21-01-2017 1:43pm

Looks like there is

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/ft1.pdf

Bottom of page

A parent or guardian must sign declaration in respect of applicants under 16 years.

But this isn't the abuse drivers were complaining of, more along the lines of;

A) The driver who said he filled bag of 'empties' from two guys who used the bus as a travelling bar, (no alcohol on board should be policy on all busses- I know for definite the the private operator on the M1 does not allow it, or coffee/tea)

The driver who said two guys who go to work everyday using FT

C) The driver who said two guys travel to Dublin every day and get the next (same bus, same driver) back to Galway.

D) The two who travel to Houston and drink a slab of beer on the way, and buy another slab for the return trip (though I don't know how a BE driver would have this information unless it was common knowledge among BE/IE staff.

E) The passenger who used companion pass to get his son (?) free to Belfast weekly and made the return journey on his own (from Newry), leaving the companion alone on the bus for the rest of the journey.

Must say I was nonplussed by the pensioner who remarked about the 'young' people having free travel from the airport when he remarked that he only comes back to Ireland from now till June as he lives in Florida now, ( he was very familiar with concessions to the elderly in Florida and spoke about fares costing xx 'bucks' ). Pot, kettle, black.

These are the abuses the drivers were complaining of not genuine FT passengers, even the driver who said 20 of his passengers were going to Salthill for the day acknowledged that it was not an abuse (though why a pensioner would choose Sunday for such a trip beats me, midweek would be a better choice all round)

punisher5112 · 21-01-2017 1:51pm

I have no issues whatsoever with genuine users and pensioners as they have in most cases worked all their life and should be looked after.

Its all the other things that are going on that needs to stop.

This country is getting out of control with its PC rubbish and minority groups and so on.

Means testing is a must and paper passes need to be cancelled asap along with those from years previous that are still accepted even though they are officially cancelled but just are let away with it.

infogiver · 21-01-2017 2:20pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I can tell you for a fact there are and believe it or not if you wish.

But you can't direct me to a link as to how children under 16 get free travel?
Surely if it's a fact then you can prove it?
I have , after all, provided you with a link informing you exactly who is entitled to free travel
If you read it you will see it doesn't include children
So I look forward to seeing your proof that I, and the DSP, are wrong

infogiver · 21-01-2017 2:30pm

joeysoap wrote: »

Looks like there is

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/ft1.pdf

Bottom of page

A parent or guardian must sign declaration in respect of applicants under 16 years.

)

As you can apply for DA and get Free Travel at aged 16, it is recommended that you apply 4 months before your 16th birthday
As a applicant younger than 16 cannot sign and date an application form then a parent or guardian must do it instead

AlekSmart · 21-01-2017 2:47pm

infogiver wrote: »

But you can't direct me to a link as to how children under 16 get free travel?
Surely if it's a fact then you can prove it?
I have , after all, provided you with a link informing you exactly who is entitled to free travel
If you read it you will see it doesn't include children
So I look forward to seeing your proof that I, and the DSP, are wrong

There has been a very recent change to the FT Scheme which now means that a person under 16 CAN be in valid possession of a DSP card.

Drivers are being appraised of this via the Drivers CPC training programme,but it is fair to say that it is NOT well known across the board.

It should also be noted that traditionally,the DSP can be quite slow to update their information portals.

As and of the end of 2015,the TOTAL number of (valid) FTS Documents in circulation was....842,744.
This covered C. 1,288,000 individuals at a TOTAL cost to the State of C.€77,000,000.

Of that total,some 52% are below Pensionable age,which underlines the allacy of the FTS being described as the OAP Pass...It is a far broader scheme than that.

As a comparator,a CIE All-Services Ticket,which would come closest to the scale of a DSP-FT Pass in scope,is available to the public at a cost of €6,530. (2017 Rate) (NB: This ticket is CIE Group specific and does NOT cover LUAS or any of the Private Sector FTS Members)

https://www.taxsaver.ie/Ticket-Types/Annual-Tickets/CIE-All-Services-Irish-Rail-Dublin-Bus--Bus-Eireann/

There are updated figures,which are as yet unaudited,for 2016 as used by Minister Varadakar in recent times...

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-06-29a.369

So it looks like the figure is at 853,000 whilst the budget is at €80,000,000.

I am not going to even attempt to multiply 853,000 x €6,530,but it is the closest one can get to applying a Commercial value to the FT Scheme....:eek:

Fred Swanson · 21-01-2017 2:48pm

This post has been deleted.

infogiver · 21-01-2017 2:49pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Can people under 16 get DA at all?

No

infogiver · 21-01-2017 2:53pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

There has been a very recent change to the FT Scheme which now means that a person under 16 CAN be in valid possession of a DSP card.

Drivers are being appraised of this via the Drivers CPC training programme,but it is fair to say that it is NOT well known across the board.

It should also be noted that traditionally,the DSP can be quite slow to update their information portals.

As and of the end of 2015,the TOTAL number of (valid) FTS Documents in circulation was....842,744.
This covered C. 1,288,000 individuals at a TOTAL cost to the State of C.€77,000,000.

Of that total,some 52% are below Pensionable age,which underlines the allacy of the FTS being described as the OAP Pass...It is a far broader scheme than that.

As a comparator,a CIE All-Services Ticket,which would come closest to the scale of a DSP-FT Pass in scope,is available to the public at a cost of €6,530. (2017 Rate) (NB: This ticket is CIE Group specific and does NOT cover LUAS or any of the Private Sector FTS Members)

https://www.taxsaver.ie/Ticket-Types/Annual-Tickets/CIE-All-Services-Irish-Rail-Dublin-Bus--Bus-Eireann/

There are updated figures,which are as yet unaudited,for 2016 as used by Minister Varadakar in recent times...

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-06-29a.369

So it looks like the figure is at 853,000 whilst the budget is at €80,000,000.

I am not going to even attempt to multiply 853,000 x €6,530,but it is the closest one can get to applying a Commercial value to the FT Scheme....:eek:

Is something in this post intended to prove that a child can apply for and be awarded Free Travel?
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html
This page was updated on 6/10/16 so if the rules have been changed it must have happened over Christmas and the New Year and parents of disabled children haven't been informed
Can you give me a link to how you know this, even by PM so I can follow up on it? Thanks

AlekSmart · 21-01-2017 3:01pm

infogiver wrote: »

But you can't direct me to a link as to how children under 16 get free travel?
Surely if it's a fact then you can prove it?
I have , after all, provided you with a link informing you exactly who is entitled to free travel
If you read it you will see it doesn't include children
So I look forward to seeing your proof that I, and the DSP, are wrong

If you go to the DSP site...

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/204_Free-Travel.aspx

Scroll down to "How to Apply" and locate the "Completing a Free Travel Application Form (pdf)" which will bring you to the form itself,therin you will find the relevant references to the Under 16 parental signature requirement,it specifically mentions Blind persons,but this has changed since the form's original publication.

One other aspect of the FT Scheme which is often overlooked is it's status.

The FT Scheme is NOT a Statutory Scheme,as in it is totally under the Discretionary control of the relevant Minister who can at the stroke of a pen,end or amend it without recourse to the Oireachtas....any takers on this occurring in our lifetime ?

Fred Swanson · 21-01-2017 3:16pm

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart · 21-01-2017 3:20pm

infogiver wrote: »

Is something in this post intended to prove that a child can apply for and be awarded Free Travel?
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html
This page was updated on 6/10/16 so if the rules have been changed it must have happened over Christmas and the New Year and parents of disabled children haven't been informed
Can you give me a link to how you know this, even by PM so I can follow up on it? Thanks

Nope afraid I cannot link to anything,but can only rely on what is appearing on the platform.

However,it is a moot enough point,as child-fares are extremely low,with an all day LEAP fare of 79c per journey and a daily-cap of €2.50.

What is perhaps of more interest are the 108,267 FT Scheme members classified as "Others"....

This information is contained in an errata slip linked to on this DSP page...

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Annual-SWS-Statistical-Information-Report-2014.aspx

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Table%20G10%20Errata%20Sheet.pdf

Victor · 21-01-2017 3:55pm

bigredone wrote: »

The old paper passes are still valid, the ones that you just show to drivers.
Until these are no longer accepted the new credit card FTP will not be compulsory
to scan on the drivers ticket machine to get a spouse/companion ticket.
Hence some drivers don't bother to issue ticket or know how too as it is not needed.

The drivers should use the system to record all passengers properly, otherwise they are undermining the argument for their service to be supported - both by subsidy and the FTS.

joeysoap wrote: »

A) The driver who said he filled bag of 'empties' from two guys who used the bus as a travelling bar, (no alcohol on board should be policy on all busses- I know for definite the the private operator on the M1 does not allow it, or coffee/tea)

These people need to be dealt with according to the rules of travel. Nothing to do with FTS.

The driver who said two guys who go to work everyday using FT

Many people with FT are entitled to work, e.g. old age pensioners, people who are blind, etc.

Must say I was nonplussed by the pensioner who remarked about the 'young' people having free travel from the airport when he remarked that he only comes back to Ireland from now till June as he lives in Florida now, ( he was very familiar with concessions to the elderly in Florida and spoke about fares costing xx 'bucks' ). Pot, kettle, black.

Was there trolling going on?

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am not going to even attempt to multiply 853,000 x €6,530,but it is the closest one can get to applying a Commercial value to the FT Scheme....:eek:

Such a value would always be discounted. Most FTP users wouldn't use their passes anything like the holders of a CIÉ All-Services Ticket.

bigredone · 21-01-2017 4:12pm

infogiver wrote: »

Your wrong
Free Travel as administrated by DSP (which is what this thread is about) is not available to children under 16.
Here are the rules for Free Travel:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/204_Free-Travel.aspx#l1f4da
People only qualify for DA at 16.

This is wrong.
Special needs children, clearly under 16 have FTP, see them on a regular basis using the bus and showing a FTP when they get on.

infogiver · 21-01-2017 4:15pm

bigredone wrote: »

This is wrong.
Special needs children, clearly under 16 have FTP, see them on a regular basis using the bus and showing a FTP when they get on.

No you don't see them, because they don't have them

bigredone · 21-01-2017 4:15pm

Victor wrote: »

The drivers should use the system to record all passengers properly, otherwise they are undermining the argument for their service to be supported - both by subsidy and the FTS.
.

Who said they dont?
There is a button on the ticket machine, press it to register a FTP was used.
How do you think the old paper tickets where used?

bigredone · 21-01-2017 4:18pm

Victor wrote: »

Many people with FT are entitled to work, e.g. old age pensioners, people who are blind, etc.

No one mentioned the blind or oap's
Its is called the Social Welfare Free Travel Pass, so how can you be working a full time job and get a Social Welfare FTP?

bigredone · 21-01-2017 4:28pm

Victor wrote: »

Such a value would always be discounted. Most FTP users wouldn't use their passes anything like the holders of a CIÉ All-Services Ticket.

Lowest Leap fare €1.50 use a DB bus twice a week for €3 for 52 weeks is a grand total of €156 year.
853,000 x €156= €133,068,000 per year.
The Government pays €80,000,000 for unlimited travel on BE/IE/DB/LUAS,see the problem there?

As the driver on Joe Duffy said , imagine if the Government gave people free electricity and only paid the ESB €80 for each persons free electricity, the ESB would be bankrupt very quickly.

XPS_Zero · 21-01-2017 4:41pm

bigredone wrote: »

No one mentioned the blind or oap's
Its is called the Social Welfare Free Travel Pass, so how can you be working a full time job and get a Social Welfare FTP?

Just on your other post about this I wouldn't get info on anything welfare related from radio callers even drivers especially based on what I heard in those two joe Duffy segments they were filled with misinformation, outright lies, misunderstandings , ignorance of the reasons for FT, and substituting anecdotal evidence for data reflecting the entire picture

They had one guy on spouting authoritatively about free travel passes when he hadn't been in Ireland for 8 years and was only back temporarily
Not only has the FT system changed radically in that time but the entire welfare system is nothing like what it was 8 years ago especially in jobseekers

The latter is the main reason why pub talk and radio shows are poor sources of data for anything

The subsidy does need to go up (and will be there was already an extra 12m in a recent budget) but they could abolish free travel it wouldn't put a dent in CIEs fiscal problems it's simply badly run and always had been

As to your question about work I have a pass and work
You seem to be associating SW with jobseekers but different SW schemes have different rules and sub-schemes within them have different rules
Even within jobseekers there's the Gateway program which just assigns you work at 19 hours a week if you're on JSA after 2 years, there's the part time job incentive scheme where you can work limited hours and get jobseekers

Pensioners can work all they like and keep the pass though most don't for obvious reasons

People with a non permanent disability are permitted to work part time and keep the pass and their payment as they transition back to normality. They used to yank FT and med cards from people the second they got a job and it proved a disincentive to return to work punishing those who did as they found the transition difficult

XPS_Zero · 21-01-2017 4:44pm

infogiver wrote: »

No you don't see them, because they don't have them

This is why "I saw" and "my cousins aunts uncles bollox told me" arguments that are purely anecdotal are no substitute for proper information

There are several school travel passes that are constantly mistaken for FT passes inc one that provides rural and some urban free school travel for kids living a certain distance from schools a scheme set up under Lenard in the 60s the cards very similar

punisher5112 · 21-01-2017 6:03pm

Infogiver I don't really understand your arguments as I know persons with ft passes that are young children with special needs and this is the new type with their personal photo on it.

Also they are companion so guardian can be with them as the guardian isn't the one that is in the special need category.
I also come across them in work quite regularly.

There is a HSE house on my road at home and the kids in it have no parents but carers full time and they have free travel come to think of it they have the old paper style but as in Dublin they do have the photo I.d which one should have so its one thing the people looking after got right.

Look if none believe this I suggest you go do a freedom of info request or contact the department.

This is not hearsay or made up but as I said before believe it or not up to you.

Free Travel Pass being Scanned on Bus Eireann

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