Free Travel Pass being Scanned on Bus Eireann

danjo-xx

I was amazed yesterday when here in Waterford city the bus driver took my card and scanned it. He put it down flat on something in front of him to be scanned. Seemed like it was on top of ticket machine but not sure.


Anyway I'm impressed.

1. Has this been rolled out in Dublin or elsewhere.
2. What information is collected or given to the driver or is it just a numbers count.


[Additional information]:

Public Services Free Travel Leaflet Bilingual- Final for Web.pdf

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/P...Travel-FAQ.pdf

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Public-Services-Card-Free-Travel-FAQ.pdf

Gatling

danjo-xx wrote: »

I was amazed yesterday when here in Waterford city the bus driver took my card and scanned it. He put it down flat on something in front of him to be scanned. Seemed like it was on top of ticket machine but not sure.


Anyway I'm impressed.

1. Has this been rolled out in Dublin or elsewhere.
2. What information is collected or given to the driver or is it just a numbers count.

This is across the board and went live in Dublin a few weeks back .
I believe there tracking number and usage but id wait for one of our the bus driver posters to confirm

n97 mini

Why the FTP was never integrated with Leap is one of life's great mysteries.

Gael23

It's on Dublin Bus for sure. I never use BE in Waterford.

AlekSmart

danjo-xx wrote: »

I was amazed yesterday when here in Waterford city the bus driver took my card and scanned it. He put it down flat on something in front of him to be scanned. Seemed like it was on top of ticket machine but not sure.


Anyway I'm impressed.

1. Has this been rolled out in Dublin or elsewhere.
2. What information is collected or given to the driver or is it just a numbers count.

The SmartCard FTP system is now live on Dublin Bus services.

The Information available to the Busdriver relates to the Type of FTP entitlement.,ie: Personal,or with Spouse or Partner entitlement.
The expiry date of the FTP entitlement.
The Status of the Card,ie OK or Blocked.

The FTP card roll-out is now progressing ahead of target,with date for the annulment of the old Cardboard Free Travel Passes being brought somewhat nearer mid Q4 2016.

One of the surprising elements for me,has been the enthusiasm shown by the OAP FTP holders,the majority of whom have been very keen to use the new system since Day 1.

Most legitimate FTP holders recognize only too well the reality of their entitlement being protected into the future by the ability to,at last,sideline the fraudsters and wide-boy's who had brought the old Free Travel Scheme to the brink of collapse.

Long overdue and very welcome

goingnowhere

n97 mini wrote: »

Why the FTP was never integrated with Leap is one of life's great mysteries.

The new social security card includes a leap application loaded with the appropriate free travel entitlement if available. The Leap infrastructure handles the rest including the blocking of a card if lost or stolen.

Aard

Will the movement of FTP users now be monitored?

Gael23

Is it being done on long distance Bus Eireann journeys?

AlekSmart

Aard wrote: »

Will the movement of FTP users now be monitored?

Other than baseline data of an FTP user boarding a specific service,and the status of that FTP card,no other information is currently used.

Given that there is no requirement to scan/tag OFF,the duration of that specific journey is not known.

However,the new FTP scheme will doubtless give something new for those who see The Evil State interfering in their freedom,to complain about.

This fear can be circumvented successfully by NOT availing of the Free Travel Scheme,and instead paying a cash fare.....Problem Solved

Before anybody leaps up to give out about this...

I am personally aware of people who have refused to take up their 32 County Free Travel Entitlement because it entails applying for,and utilising,a chipped SmartPass issued by Her Majesty's Government,and so continue to pay a supplement for 6 County Travel.

There is NO State Provided system anywhere which can suit EVERYBODY.....there will ALWAYS be individuals whose beliefs, however unfounded they may be,outweigh commonsense.

Aard

I suppose what I mean is, will people's movements be monitored for "unusual" patterns (daily commuting, that type of thing) and subsequently investigated? Or is the data gathering merely to know that DublinBus carried x% FT passengers in a given year and the likes?

Peppa Pig

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Information available to the Busdriver

Is it the driver's validator that's used. I saw on a post on Boards that people were using them on the RH validator. Using this means anyone could use it.
Using the bus driver to check the pass will dramatically reduce fraud.

Slippin Jimmy

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Is it the driver's validator that's used. I saw on a post on Boards that people were using them on the RH validator. Using this means anyone could use it.
Using the bus driver to check the pass will dramatically reduce fraud.

RH validator is used. Seen drivers telling people to use this instead. Gives the driver the same details.

Gael23

Slippin Jimmy wrote: »

RH validator is used. Seen drivers telling people to use this instead. Gives the driver the same details.

When I'm using mine, how does the driver know that I am the authorised pass holder?

Slippin Jimmy

Gael23 wrote: »

When I'm using mine, how does the driver know that I am the authorised pass holder?

Can't answer that tbh. Maybe someone in the know could fill in.

goingnowhere

Leap and the operators know nothing beyond the number of the card, this is a unique number and isn’t your PPSN.

So If the DSFA have an inquiry they can ask Leap to provide a record of travel for a specific card. Nothing stopping them getting a dump of all usage for a period, after all the DSFA are paying

In NI there certainly have been cases of investigation where the usage levels of a card were considered abnormal

On Dublin Bus when the RH validator is used a message is shown on the drivers TGX 150 showing the ticket type

Mrs OBumble

Aard wrote: »

I suppose what I mean is, will people's movements be monitored for "unusual" patterns (daily commuting, that type of thing) and subsequently investigated? Or is the data gathering merely to know that DublinBus carried x% FT passengers in a given year and the likes?

Lots of older people do travel every day, some to jobs, others to show, pubs etc. I suspect that some on disability would do the same. Nothing untoward about that.

Could be an interesting monitoring tool for keeping an eye on the welfare of older people who live alone, though: if someone was travelling every day and then suddenly stops, maybe they're sick or injured etc and a phone call might be in order.

And I'd imagine the guards might occasionally find it helpful to have a list of who caught which bus, incomplete though it will be.

foggy_lad

Slippin Jimmy wrote: »

Can't answer that tbh. Maybe someone in the know could fill in.

The driver has no way of knowing unless they ask to see the card and examine the picture on it.

Gael23

foggy_lad wrote: »

The driver has no way of knowing unless they ask to see the card and examine the picture on it.

That's what I thought. Im 24 and have one due to a disability, which isn't clearly obvious by looking at me but I still don't have to show the driver my pass.

danjo-xx

Gael23 wrote: »

That's what I thought. Im 24 and have one due to a disability, which isn't clearly obvious by looking at me but I still don't have to show the driver my pass.

Sounds like the driver(s) know you from when you first presented the pass and just waves you on but that is bad practice as your pass could be out of date etc.

punisher5112

FTP works like the following....

FT - P is personal only(card holder only permitted travel)

FT - S is for Spouse, civil partner or cohabitant

FT - C is a companion pass and permits anyone over 16 to accompany the pass holder.

For personal(card holder only) you place card on validator to right of door.

If S or C type and you are looking to bring along another on your pass you must place card on drivers ticket machine and state you are travelling with a companion or partner/spouse etc..

If all of the above are travelling alone then use validator to the right at door and place there till you get a single beep and green/
orange light, if it beeps 4 times and red light shows it did not work and place it up again without moving the card.

The driver will press Social welfare button and then another screen will pop up with a confirmation of type of pass and is it correct that the person is allowed to accompany the pass holder.

loyatemu

punisher5112 wrote: »

FT - S is for Spouse, civil partner or cohabitant

FT - C is a companion pass and permits anyone over 16 to accompany the pass holder.

what is the practical difference between these - do you have to bring along a marriage cert for the first one?

punisher5112

loyatemu wrote: »

what is the practical difference between these - do you have to bring along a marriage cert for the first one?

No but if you do happen to be checked by an inspector they can call the social and check.

Companion pass is set up for those that can't travel alone or need assistance but this isn't how most use them

Gatling

loyatemu wrote: »

what is the practical difference between these - do you have to bring along a marriage cert for the first one?

No but I'm sure it only covers your spouse or named co habitant if checked the old paper ones were supposed to be signed by your spouse /co habitant .
Where alot of people would say this mate or that mate is covered

punisher5112

Gatling wrote: »

No but I'm sure it only covers your spouse or named co habitant if checked the old paper ones were supposed to be signed by your spouse /co habitant .
Where alot of people would say this mate or that mate is covered

That is still going on and showing a social services card not for travel they have all sorts of tricks.
New card won't stop this but they will have to go to driver and ask so hopefully make it harder.

AlekSmart

Gael23 wrote: »

When I'm using mine, how does the driver know that I am the authorised pass holder?

The Driver does'nt need to know you are anybody.....once the Validator recognises a valid FTP that's all that's required.

If you are bringing a Spouse/Companion then the FTP Card must be presented on the Drivers Machine,which increases the chances of a chancer being caught.

With the increased Revenue Protection regime now in the final stages of deployment,the checking of FTP's and all other tickets will be far more widespread.

Dublin Bus Passengers will soon begin to notice a significant increase in Ticket Checking,all of which...totally coincidentally...;)... dovetails nicely with the new FTP Card introduction.

AlekSmart

Gael23 wrote: »

That's what I thought. Im 24 and have one due to a disability, which isn't clearly obvious by looking at me but I still don't have to show the driver my pass.

You can now use your FTP,in a wallet or purse if suitable,to anonymously validate in the same manner as a ordinary LeapCard passenger...nobody has to know what kind of Card you are presenting...Just wait for the Beep & Green Light and walk on

AlekSmart

punisher5112 wrote: »

That is still going on and showing a social services card not for travel they have all sorts of tricks.
New card won't stop this but they will have to go to driver and ask so hopefully make it harder.

With the ongoing roll-out of the ordinary NON Free Travel Social Services Card,to every citizen in the State,the Spouses own DSP Card will be matched to the FTP Holders for Identification Purposes,so an Inspector would merely verify the spouse ID via their own DSP Card.

Kalman

danjo-xx wrote: »

I was amazed yesterday when here in Waterford city the bus driver took my card and scanned it. He put it down flat on something in front of him to be scanned. Seemed like it was on top of ticket machine but not sure.


Anyway I'm impressed.

1. Has this been rolled out in Dublin or elsewhere.
2. What information is collected or given to the driver or is it just a numbers count.

It can spot a fake.[pass] It records where you got on, the numbers of passangers using that service , the identity of the driver, the route, the date/ time and the zero fare if any. [ a lot of information]

danjo-xx

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Driver does'nt need to know you are anybody.....once the Validator recognises a valid FTP that's all that's required.

I don't get this, if that is the case then I could give my 'valid' card to someone else and they could use it.

I thought the Photo of the holder on the card was the main security advantage. They could have made it bigger instead of postage stamp size for drivers to see it clearly.

Their called Public Services Card now.

markpb

danjo-xx wrote: »

I don't get this, if that is the case then I could give my 'valid' card to someone else and they could use it.

I thought the Photo of the holder on the card was the main security advantage. They could have made it bigger instead of postage stamp size for drivers to see it clearly.

Their called Public Services Card now.

The drivers job is to drive the bus and operate the doors, it's not to validate the identity of their passengers. Should they also check the photos of all the monthly and annual ticket holders too? Nope, that's what RPU are there for.

danjo-xx

markpb wrote: »

The drivers job is to drive the bus and operate the doors, it's not to validate the identity of their passengers. Should they also check the photos of all the monthly and annual ticket holders too? Nope, that's what RPU are there for.

aw got ya now, I often wondered how the poor drivers were expected to cope with all this, god knows they have their hands full just driving the bus and taking fares.

Who are RPU, (inspectors I'm guessing) are they a private company contracted by c.i.e. or are they apart of the group.

foggy_lad

danjo-xx wrote: »

aw got ya now, I often wondered how the poor drivers were expected to cope with all this, god knows they have their hands full just driving the bus and taking fares.

Who are RPU, (inspectors I'm guessing) are they a private company contracted by c.i.e. or are they apart of the group.

They are just bus and rail employees who have been trained in ticket checking and in dealing with those who might not have a valid ticket for their journey. some people can get quite irate when informed their ticket is invalid or that they need a ticket at all.

The rail RPU have a Rail Warrent which gives them extra powers to detain people that other conductors and guards do not always have.

As for the whole issue of ticket checking by a private company maybe that is one for Amarach

Slippin Jimmy

They are apart of the group afaik. The revenue protection unit were in training a few weeks ago. I've yet to spot any of them around town. I'd imagine there won't be too many of them. But I think overall it will be great to see them catching fare dodgers.

LXFlyer

danjo-xx wrote: »

aw got ya now, I often wondered how the poor drivers were expected to cope with all this, god knows they have their hands full just driving the bus and taking fares.

Who are RPU, (inspectors I'm guessing) are they a private company contracted by c.i.e. or are they apart of the group.

RPU are Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann or Irish Rail inspectors (all internal staff).

punisher5112

I can tell you know there is a hell of a lot more to the job then just driving the bus and operating the door.

A driver shoiuld want to protect their job and not let people walk all over them.
If one doesn't pay or have a legit pass then it is simple they don't travel and it is up to the driver and inspectors.

AlekSmart

danjo-xx wrote: »

I don't get this, if that is the case then I could give my 'valid' card to someone else and they could use it.

I thought the Photo of the holder on the card was the main security advantage. They could have made it bigger instead of postage stamp size for drivers to see it clearly.

Their called Public Services Card now.

You can indeed,and with any luck you will....as it will provide much needed experience for the new Revenue Protection Teams

The FTP and it's associated technology is all about Automating a previously manual process.

The Security is almost totally technological based,something which has already paid-off handsomely for the DSP...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/father-of-four-jailed-for-five-years-for-social-welfare-fraud-1.2068578

The fraud came to light after the Department of Social Protection used facial recognition software to establish that the same photo was being used on a number of social welfare identities.

http://campus.ie/surviving-college/facial-recognition-software-catches-serial-fraudsters

More than 60 welfare fraudsters who had been using multiple false identities have been caught using new facial recognition software.

They included one person who had developed up to 10 false identities to claim benefits.

The fraudsters had received more than €1m between them in bogus social welfare payments before they were caught, the Dáil's spending watchdog was told.

The facial recognition software is being used in conjunction with the new public service card, which is being rolled out to three million people around the country.

During the next 12 months the Free Travel Scheme will be in an interim phase,wherein the old & new have to co-exist.

The General Title is the Public Services Card (PSC),however the Free Travel version is the PSC-FT...a small,yet significant difference.

AlekSmart

punisher5112 wrote: »

I can tell you know there is a hell of a lot more to the job then just driving the bus and operating the door.

A driver should want to protect their job and not let people walk all over them.

If one doesn't pay or have a legit pass then it is simple they don't travel and it is up to the driver and inspectors.

It is the Busdrivers responsibility to ensure,to the best of their ability,that all passengers are in possession of a Ticket,Pass or Warrant.

It is the Passengers responsibility to be in possession of the CORRECT Ticket,Pass or Warrant for their intended journey.

reggaeman

punisher5112 wrote: »

I can tell you know there is a hell of a lot more to the job then just driving the bus and operating the door.

A driver shoiuld want to protect their job and not let people walk all over them.
If one doesn't pay or have a legit pass then it is simple they don't travel and it is up to the driver and inspectors.

Another problem for the driver.
The public have only to show proof of ID (this could be made up) and driver must let them on. He then just records this information and issues ticket. When paying in his takings he includes the passengers information so as company can collect money from the passenger etc,etc

Aard

lxflyer wrote: »

RPU are Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann or Irish Rail inspectors (all internal staff).

Would it make any sense for the NTA to take over Revenue Protection? Considering that they're the ones who set fares and deal with a lot (most?) of the finances.

LXFlyer

Aard wrote: »

Would it make any sense for the NTA to take over Revenue Protection? Considering that they're the ones who set fares and deal with a lot (most?) of the finances.

No - that's the job of the operating companies.

mickmmc

It is not fair in my book for a FTP holder to use it for travelling to/from work (allowing for exceptions with people with disabilities). Over 65s may have a pension and be earning a wage.

It was a retrograde step when the late Seamus Brennan, former Minister for Transport, allowed the free pass to used for peak services.

After the next General Election, with the data available from the new card, caps should be put in place for the amount of free trips per week/month for FPT holders. The current system is not sustainable.

FanadMan

foggy_lad wrote: »

They are just bus and rail employees who have been trained in ticket checking and in dealing with those who might not have a valid ticket for their journey. some people can get quite irate when informed their ticket is invalid or that they need a ticket at all.

The rail RPU have a Rail Warrent which gives them extra powers to detain people that other conductors and guards do not always have.

As for the whole issue of ticket checking by a private company maybe that is one for Amarach

I have a FTP due to illness. A few months ago I was on the train from Galway to Dublin and an inspector (or RPU) was checking the tickets. When I showed him my old paper pass along with the ticket he got quite grumpy. Had to write out all my details for him and he went and phoned Social Welfare. When he came back he started giving out to me for not having the new card and how the trains shouldn't be dealing with the paper ones!

A few weeks later I went to the local welfare office to see about getting the new card. I was told that they are first issuing them to people on Jobseekers and I'd be called next year sometime. When I explained what happened on the train, the woman in the office went off her head. She said that nobody should be spoken to like that - seeing as people on DA weren't being issued the new cards up here yet.

I think that the new cards are great idea. Have seen people kicked off buses as they didn't have photographic ID with them (were probably using someone elses card) as the driver seemed to know them.

Kalman

Aard wrote: »

Will the movement of FTP users now be monitored?

Local government picks up the tab for the free-pass.
So under any further austerity measures, with these card readers , the ability is in place, to restrict the use of the pass to[say] two/ three or four times per week. I suppose it makes sense. >>>>It's thinking ahead[/I].

Gatling

FanadMan wrote: »

When I explained what happened on the train, the woman in the office went off her head. She said that nobody should be spoken to like that - seeing as people on DA weren't being issued the new cards up here yet.

I've mine and on DA got issued it last week ,I've always found IR staff to be quite courteous when I've had to use a train when it came to ftp users never liked been issued the purple and black tickets though .
I'm fairly impressed so far with the new system it's handy been able to tag on rather than get eyeballed by other users for for having a ftp

Gatling

Kalman wrote: »

Local government picks up the tab for the free-pass.
So under any further austerity measures, with these card readers , the ability is in place, to restrict the use of the pass to[say] two/ three or four times per week. I suppose it makes sense. >>>>It's thinking ahead[/I].

Highly doubt they will restrict them at all most likely they might go the route of who's entitled to one though

FanadMan

Gatling wrote: »

I've mine and on DA got issued it last week ,I've always found IR staff to be quite courteous when I've had to use a train when it came to ftp users never liked been issued the purple and black tickets though .
I'm fairly impressed so far with the new system it's handy been able to tag on rather than get eyeballed by other users for for having a ftp

The woman in the office in Letterkenny said that they weren't set up for issuing the cards to DA people yet - just Jobseekers at the minute. Maybe it was my pleasant demeanour that she sorted it for me

I've normally found the IR people really nice to deal with too but this one guy seemed to either have an issue with me having a FTP or else maybe was hungover lol. I've travelled the same train a couple of times since and wasn't even asked for the FTP when showing my ticket.

Kalman

Gatling wrote: »

Highly doubt they will restrict them at all most likely they might go the route of who's entitled to one though

Yes I agree, however, it remains an option. The 'bus-pass' as I understand, is issued to pensioners and for those who are restricted in their movements.

danjo-xx

Kalman wrote: »

Yes I agree, however, it remains an option. The 'bus-pass' as I understand, is issued to pensioners and for those who are restricted in their movements.

that is correct pensioners and people on Disability Allowance, plus in some severe cases a companion pass is issued if a person is not fit to travel alone.

If the hours and number of times one can travel were to be restricted it could cause hardship to people that may be visiting a sick relative in hospital maybe even twice a day and every day for example, and that would be a shame if it were to happen.

Kalman

danjo-xx wrote: »

that is correct pensioners and people on Disability Allowance, plus in some severe cases a companion pass is issued if a person is not fit to travel alone.

If the hours and number of times one can travel were to be restricted it could cause hardship to people that may be visiting a sick relative in hospital maybe even twice a day and every day for example, and that would be a shame if it were to happen.

No, of course it will not happen, it would be a sad state of affairs.
I do have a pass and it's great to be able to take the bus into town whenever I wish to do so>>>which is daily!

Aard

The new e-FTP will make it easier to see how much of peak-time loading is taken up by FTP holders for the first time. If it's significant, and the numbers are there to back it up, it wouldn't be out of the question to restrict FTP use to off-peak only. Or at least not during the morning peak, which is a more concentrated window than the evening peak.

Kalman

Aard wrote: »

The new e-FTP will make it easier to see how much of peak-time loading is taken up by FTP holders for the first time. If it's significant, and the numbers are there to back it up, it wouldn't be out of the question to restrict FTP use to off-peak only. Or at least not during the morning peak, which is a more concentrated window than the evening peak.

Yes, you are quite right. In England, I'm told, that you can only use them after 9:30 am. If you need to use the bus earlier, then you must pay half the fare.