The Irish language is failing.

Gael Mire · 09-09-2015 4:46pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

They're not irrelevant in a discussion about reviving Irish culture. Unless you are denying they were part of Irish culture? Or that there is currently an attempt to revive the Irish language which was (yes almost entirely was) part of Irish culture.
Tell me why it is irrelevant. I think the word you're struggling for is "inconvenient".

If the practice of slavery or fines for murder were customs that survived as active parts of the culture in communities here, not only to modern times, but to this very day, like the speaking of Irish has, then you might have a point. But they didn't, and you don't.

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 4:48pm

DyldeBrill wrote: »

What exactly is your point here? You obviously cannot not stick to the issue in hand, and you've failed to do this throughout this thread, instead, going off on a tangent.

You don't appear to be able to follow the thread? I was told it was important to be forced to learn Irish as it's part of our heritage. So are plenty of other things. Who's decided these aren't important exactly and why?

DyldeBrill wrote: »

What you have to respect is that there are people who disagree with your stance on the Irish language. What you have to respect is that some people do accept it as part of their heritage. As I've stated previously I think the education system has been completely flawed, but lets scrap the education system here and focus on the language itself for a minute.

Ditto above. It is part of our heritage. This is not a good reason in itself to force people to re-enact it.

DyldeBrill wrote: »

What has been of benefit to the language is that of its use in other countries. Canada, America, Australia, France, Germany and so on. If you have an interest in language history its very interesting to see the similarities between some words in Irish and German. This could of course would have something to do with Germanic tribes settling here in Ireland.

In the 2007 American Community Survey 22,279 people said they spoke Irish at home. It has also done good to our tourism in which people have traveled to Ireland to improve their Irish.

Place names as well. Every county and town name was Anglicised, whereas the Irish version is the one that will make sense, and can tell you a lot about the area in which you live.

The number of people who come to Ireland specifically to learn Irish, and for no other reason, must be miniscule. And anyway, utterly smashed under the weight of economic benefit to Ireland of being a nation with English as our primary language.

DyldeBrill wrote: »

We've established that our government made a complete balls of the language in terms of teaching it but you can't brand the language as absolutely useless.

Have we established that? What makes you think that if people only knew Irish better they would all be using it? It would still be their secondary language. Less proficiency, less use internationally, almost worthless for media consumption.

DyldeBrill wrote: »

You said you didn't want to see the Irish language die and I'm still waiting for an answer from you. I've put this in bold because you've successfully skipped past it each and every time. I simply can't understand why you said that because you've completely contradicted your statement in most of your other comments about the Irish language.

I don't want it to die because it's interesting and that's about it. I see no reason whatsoever though to force or even promote that people use it. Why bother? If people want to then they'll use it. We already have a national language with 100% nationwide fluency which serves us well internationally also. English.

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 4:50pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

If the practice of slavery or fines for murder were customs that survived as active parts of the culture in communities here, not only to modern times, but to this very day, like the speaking of Irish has, then you might have a point. But they didn't, and you don't.

Ah, so it's only culture that has an unbroken continuum that's worth promoting with forced re-enactment? Are you sure you want to go down that road? Sounds like you just plucked that reason out of the sky TBH.

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 4:51pm

fear le solas wrote: »

If your attitude is that we are forced to learn Irish, I take it your parents were forced too. Hence the negativity towards it continues... Remember what I said earlier about taking responsibility to break the cycle?

You missed the most obvious way to break the cycle: stop forcing people to re-enact it.

superelliptic · 09-09-2015 4:52pm

wakka12 wrote: »

We should learn from Israel, they successfully revived hebrew in their country and funnily enough used Ireland as a model of how not to revive a dead(ish) language.

Do tell!

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 4:59pm

fear le solas wrote: »

true Irishmen will not let this happen

Oh, pray do tell us all about these true Irishmen and what boxes they have to tick to join the club.
Hoops jersey? "Undefeated Army" tattoo?

Carlos Orange · 09-09-2015 5:05pm

superelliptic wrote: »

Do tell!

Even ignoring the questionable their I'm not sure there is a meaningful comparison between language use in Israel in 1949 and language use in Ireland in 2015. Even now only a minority of people in Israel consider Hebrew their native language.

Carlos Orange · 09-09-2015 5:06pm

fear le solas wrote: »

true Irishmen will not let this happen.

:rolleyes:

Shep_Dog · 09-09-2015 5:22pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

If the practice of slavery or fines for murder were customs that survived as active parts of the culture in communities here, not only to modern times, but to this very day, like the speaking of Irish has, then you might have a point. But they didn't, and you don't.

Speaking Irish has not survived in most communities in Ireland. And, in some communities it was never a custom.

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 5:34pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Speaking Irish has not survived in most communities in Ireland. And, in some communities it was never a custom.

And shouldn't we be reviving mesolithic Irish culture anyway instead of Celtic? They were here before those other lot invaded after all. That's our heritage. Right? Right?

Paramite Pie · 09-09-2015 6:16pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Slavery and fines for murder are also part of Ireland's rich heritage.
Time for a revival I'm sure you'll agree?
Or, heavens forbid, maybe we could just learn about our heritage rather than insisting on re-enacting it?

We re-enact Shakespeare don't we? Or are you suggesting that we only read the notes instead? And learning Shakespeare doesn't mean we have burn witches or join the Virginia Company. Your rambling and not making a coherent argument.

There's no connection between promoting a language that was still spoken a lot over a 150 years ago and reviving medieval customs.

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Speaking Irish has not survived in most communities in Ireland. And, in some communities it was never a custom.

There are very few communities in Ireland where some for of Irish wasn't a custom. The vikings, Normans and even planters (bar the highest aristocracy) all adopted the language.

It's still a tangible heritage in most communities across the island, from placenames to surnames to the castles and so on.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And shouldn't we be reviving mesolithic Irish culture anyway instead of Celtic? They were here before those other lot invaded after all. That's our heritage. Right? Right?

No one knows much about those cultures -- the Gaels left one of the largest written records (by a large margin) during the dark ages and continued writing up until the 17th century.
But we're not reviving that culture -- we're learning the modern Irish language.

However I'd rather they focus on making learning Irish more fun and involving for the pupils. But it's not a bad thing to see some of the literature first hand is it?
It's just not taught effectively.

09-09-2015 6:19pm

Faith+1 wrote: »

I'd love to be able to speak Irish. Spent 12 years of my life 'learning' it in school only to take foundation level in 6th year.

I'm not blaming anyone only myself, I'm a complete and utter idiot.

I suspect that if you were Welsh and living in Wales learning Welsh, you wouldn't feel this way,

Byddech wedi cael bobl a fyddai'n hapus i siarad â chi yn Gymraeg ac ni fyddech wedi teimlo ei fod yn wastraff amser!

You would have had people who would be happy to speak to you in welsh and you wouldn't have felt that it was a waste of time!

JCX BXC · 09-09-2015 6:59pm

Read the first 3 pages of the fourm and I'm disgusted. -"Let it die". Why? Do we want to become an uncultured country to the extent that jts just a place where people lives out their lives until death?

We need a new mindset. How about telling children and adults the benefit of the language? Get it into children's head from the age of 4/5 that it's a piece of culture most countries don't have, England, America, Australia all have 1 language, English. We have the opportunity to leave a completely different and unique language.

Make primary school teachers attend Irish classes every summer and focus on conversational Irish. How do you learn English as a child? By talking it. Speak it first, grammar will come with time (especially in the schooling system).

Offer free Irish language classes of different intensities to adults. Release a wide selection of Gaeilge reading materials in libraries. Advertise TG4 and Raidio Rí Rá to TV/Radio cobsumers. Give incentives for companies to offer products and advertisements in Irish.

Instead of forcing people who work in public figures to have done a certain level of Irish in schools, give them Irish language training. Slowly make it a requirement for TD's to be fluent in Irish again, (offer significant training).

We also need Foras Na gaeilge to start governing the language and to start modernising it. There's a whole load of new English words not translatable into Irish. This needs to change.

For social welfare percipients, offer them an increase of €20 a week in return for taking daily Irish classes (offer childcare if needed, preferably encouraging irish!)

All these reforms I think would bring Irish to a standard where the majority of the population speak it.

Also, how about dropping all these new refugees into rural Mayo and making them speak Irish?

Carlos Orange · 09-09-2015 7:03pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Get it into children's head from the age of 4/5 that it's a piece of culture most countries don't have, England, America, Australia all have 1 language, English.

All of those countries have more than one language.

BoatMad · 09-09-2015 7:09pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Read the first 3 pages of the fourm and I'm disgusted. -"Let it die". Why? Do we want to become an uncultured country to the extent that jts just a place where people lives out their lives until death?

We need a new mindset. How about telling children and adults the benefit of the language? Get it into children's head from the age of 4/5 that it's a piece of culture most countries don't have, England, America, Australia all have 1 language, English. We have the opportunity to leave a completely different and unique language.

Make primary school teachers attend Irish classes every summer and focus on conversational Irish. How do you learn English as a child? By talking it. Speak it first, grammar will come with time (especially in the schooling system).

Offer free Irish language classes of different intensities to adults. Release a wide selection of Gaeilge reading materials in libraries. Advertise TG4 and Raidio Rí Rá to TV/Radio cobsumers. Give incentives for companies to offer products and advertisements in Irish.

Instead of forcing people who work in public figures to have done a certain level of Irish in schools, give them Irish language training. Slowly make it a requirement for TD's to be fluent in Irish again, (offer significant training).

We also need Foras Na gaeilge to start governing the language and to start modernising it. There's a whole load of new English words not translatable into Irish. This needs to change.

For social welfare percipients, offer them an increase of €20 a week in return for taking daily Irish classes (offer childcare if needed, preferably encouraging irish!)

All these reforms I think would bring Irish to a standard where the majority of the population speak it.

Also, how about dropping all these new refugees into rural Mayo and making them speak Irish?

What a horrible place it would be if you ever got into power.

Ireland is not defined by its language, it's merely one part of its tapestry. Our culture also exists in English as well.

your argument is rather like the official ignorance of returning ww1 or ww2 soldiers be used they didn't fit your convenient view of our heritage

Irish should not be compulsory. Those that wish to learn it for personal reasons. Should be facilitated in every way. But equally I shouldn't have my mobile bill extended by listening to long winded introductions in irish.

We need to stop forcing one groups idea of culture on another, enough of that went on previously

JCX BXC · 09-09-2015 7:11pm

psinno wrote: »

All of those countries have more than one language.

Only National Language of U.S.A : English. (Spanish spoken to an extent due to mass Mexican immigration and some from Spanish colonial times, but that's like saying Polish is a language of ireland)

Other regional Languages of England: Welsh, well that's wales language isn't it? And Cornish. Not widely recognized, only certain (3-6 out of around 100 parishes) parts of Cornwall have population over 1% that speak it as their main language. Its dead and not coming back.

Only National Language of Australia: English

JCX BXC · 09-09-2015 7:15pm

BoatMad wrote: »

What a horrible place it would be if you ever got into power.

Ireland is not defined by its language, it's merely one part of its tapestry. Our culture also exists in English as well.

your argument is rather like the official ignorance of returning ww1 or ww2 soldiers be used they didn't fit your convenient view of our heritage

Irish should not be compulsory. Those that wish to learn it for personal reasons. Should be facilitated in every way. But equally I shouldn't have my mobile bill extended by listening to long winded introductions in irish.

We need to stop forcing one groups idea of culture on another, enough of that went on previously

Where did I suggest forcing it on people? Politicians and Gardai should have it if the population will have it. Otherwise its up to you whether you want it or not.

Children are not forced to learn Irish in schools anymore then they are maths, but infact children from other countries and children with Dyslexia can be exempt.

BoatMad · 09-09-2015 7:21pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Where did I suggest forcing it on people? Politicians and Gardai should have it if the population will have it. Otherwise its up to you whether you want it or not.

Children are not forced to learn Irish in schools anymore then they are maths, but infact children from other countries and children with Dyslexia can be exempt.

The three Rs are compulsory , because they are clearly needed to function in our society. Irish is not and therefor should be a choice subject. I suspect it would be the best thing that ever happened to the language.

Irish would benefit from its adherents and lack of compulsion would silence its critics. It would return primary schooling to the pre 1922 stage where irish was thought but not in any way compulsory for office holders etc.

.

Carlos Orange · 09-09-2015 7:21pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Only National Language of U.S.A : English. (Spanish spoken to an extent due to mass Mexican immigration and some from Spanish colonial times, but that's like saying Polish is a language of ireland)

Other regional Languages of England: Welsh, well that's wales language isn't it? And Cornish. Not widely recognized, only certain (3-6 out of around 100 parishes) parts of Cornwall have population over 1% that speak it as their main language. Its dead and not coming back.

Only National Language of Australia: English

The US doesn't have a dejure national language. The defacto national language is English, as it is here. Same with Australia. Here is a list of languages that have comparable levels of usage in Australia to Irish in Ireland

- Mandarin
- Italian
- Arabic
- Cantonese
- Greek

Spanish has been spoken in the US for hundreds of years. If we were still part of the UK it would be kinda comparable to Irish except much much more widely spoken and growing.

Dughorm · 09-09-2015 7:27pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Is Sorbian a mandatory subject for all German students even though 99% of them will never use it again, the way Irish is here? Is a national minority language the same as having a language that pretty much nobody speaks as the basic language of a country's constitution?
I think you know the answers to those Dug.

I don't claim any expertise on how they do education in Germany but it looks very regionalised and rules varies throughout. That's the impression I get from Wiki. Their structures are unlike ours so you're not comparing like with like here.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Blah blah blah. Stay predictable.

I've no doubt you will Dan!

Dughorm · 09-09-2015 7:34pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The three Rs are compulsory , because they are clearly needed to function in our society. Irish is not and therefor should be a choice subject. I suspect it would be the best thing that ever happened to the language. .

The three R's in our national languages are compulsory - it represents the government's commitment to being able living here through the medium of both our national languages - Irish or English.

BoatMad wrote: »

Irish would benefit from its adherents and lack of compulsion would silence its critics. It would return primary schooling to the pre 1922 stage where irish was thought but not in any way compulsory for office holders etc.

Was Irish actually taught in most schools pre 1922? Genuine question here. I wouldn't have thought so.

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 7:46pm

Paramite Pie wrote: »

We re-enact Shakespeare don't we? Or are you suggesting that we only read the notes instead? And learning Shakespeare doesn't mean we have burn witches or join the Virginia Company. Your rambling and not making a coherent argument.

There's no connection between promoting a language that was still spoken a lot over a 150 years ago and reviving medieval customs.

So what if they re-enact Shakespeare? Did you just invent the impression that I think that's a good way to learn English? At least it's in some way connected to something useful in life (modern English) I guess.
So there's no connection between an aspect of Irish heritage from 150 years ago with an aspect of Irish heritage from the middle ages? You sure about that? I wonder what language they spoke in Ireland in the middle ages?
"your rambling" indeed.

Carlos Orange · 09-09-2015 7:46pm

Dughorm wrote: »

The three R's in our national languages are compulsory - it represents the government's commitment to being able living here through the medium of both our national languages - Irish or English.

Are they? I would have thought only 2 of them were.

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 7:48pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Read the first 3 pages of the fourm and I'm disgusted. -"Let it die". Why? Do we want to become an uncultured country to the extent that jts just a place where people lives out their lives until death?

Hang on, you blast your way in here just to shout from the rooftops that you have no culture other than the Irish language?
Am I supposed to be jealous or something?

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 7:51pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Other regional Languages of England: Welsh, well that's wales language isn't it? And Cornish. Not widely recognized, only certain (3-6 out of around 100 parishes) parts of Cornwall have population over 1% that speak it as their main language. Its dead and not coming back.

Oh dear. Around 1% of people here use Irish as their main language. You might want to do some, ahem, rephrasing of 1% meaning "dead and not coming back".

JCX BXC · 09-09-2015 7:51pm

psinno wrote: »

The US doesn't have a dejure national language. The defacto national language is English, as it is here.

Wikipedia states that the national language of the US is English. There's no official language if that's what your confusing it with.

Same with Australia. Here is a list of languages that have comparable levels of usage in Australia to Irish in Ireland

- Mandarin
- Italian
- Arabic
- Cantonese
- Greek

Yet none of these argue against the point of the Irish culture. Those languages are a result of immigration. Irish is a whole different story.

Spanish has been spoken in the US for hundreds of years. If we were still part of the UK it would be kinda comparable to Irish except much much more widely spoken and growing.

How about you explain that point?

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 7:53pm

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't claim any expertise on how they do education in Germany but it looks very regionalised and rules varies throughout. That's the impression I get from Wiki. Their structures are unlike ours so you're not comparing like with like here.

Why would the pro-Irish side want to bring up Sorbian in Germany if it isn't relevant then I wonder...

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 7:55pm

Dughorm wrote: »

The three R's in our national languages are compulsory - it represents the government's commitment to being able living here through the medium of both our national languages - Irish or English.

Nobody needs Irish to live here. That's totally imaginary.

JCX BXC · 09-09-2015 7:55pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh dear. Around 1% of people here use Irish as their main language. You might want to do some, ahem, rephrasing of 1% meaning "dead and not coming back".

Go ahead and actually read my posts.
The highest daily speaker there is just over in very localised parishes. Less than 0.0001% in the whole of the UK. In Ireland some parishes have upwards of 70% spekaing Irish in some communities

Dan_Solo · 09-09-2015 7:57pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Yet none of these argue against the point of the Irish culture. Those languages are a result of immigration. Irish is a whole different story.

You might explain why we should learn Irish when it isn't the indigenous language of Ireland, it having replace some unknown Mesolithic tongue? You do know the Celts are, to borrow the word, Sassenachs themselves?

The Irish language is failing.

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