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RWC 2015 - build-up thread

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    #632
    flangemeistro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭flangemeistro


    Looks like peer pressure really does work with the Burgess selection, Christ during the French game the Sky Sports guys had a hard on and were pushing him on us like Coke at an Amy Winehouse funeral!


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    #633
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    smiley_face wrote: »
    Would add Best and Henshaw to that list, and Toner, POM, Ross are not far off it.

    Sorry but Henshaw is not in the conversation for world's best 12. Yet.

    And Toner, while very good, wouldn't be in the top 5 locks in the world. Maybe top 10.


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    #634
    flangemeistro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭flangemeistro


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Sorry but Henshaw is not in the conversation for world's best 12. Yet.

    And Toner, while very good, wouldn't be in the top 5 locks in the world. Maybe top 10.

    Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.


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    #635
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.

    This post says more about your perception of Toner and knowledge of the sport than it does about Toner's actual ability.

    You won't find many better at disrupting a maul and creating problems for opposition lineout, he passes well off both sides and for a big guy he seems to have a great engine and work rate. He is an ideal balancing act for O'Connell actually and we're damn lucky to have him.

    Breakdown merchant he is not, one trick pony he definitely isn't.


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    #636
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.

    I wouldn't go that far. That was my perception of him when he first started playing for Leinster but he has since developed into a very good international rugby player. He is currently the second best lock in Ireland.


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    #637
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.
    He is far from a one trick pony. His work rate is rather good. Defensive ability in mauls,
    He isn't there to dominate the breakdown. Id prefer Donncha Ryan ahead of him but he has to do a lot to get ahead of him considering how long he has been out and Toners good form with Ireland over past season or so


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    #638
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    Looks like peer pressure really does work with the Burgess selection, Christ during the French game the Sky Sports guys had a hard on and were pushing him on us like Coke at an Amy Winehouse funeral!

    People on twitter suggesting Burgess' inclusion in the squad was a done deal from the minute he switched codes. It does seem an odd situation, especially given he was apparently never even in consideration for England in the position he actually plays for Bath in.


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    #639
    PTH2009
    Registered Users Posts: 38,156 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    How didn't delon armitage even make the premlimary squad ??. He's one of the best players in Europe


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    #640
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Sorry but Henshaw is not in the conversation for world's best 12. Yet.

    And Toner, while very good, wouldn't be in the top 5 locks in the world. Maybe top 10.

    Yeah Henshaw has shown a limited skillset so far, due to the game plan he's playing to as much as anything. Defensively he is up there I reckon, but in general he has a good bit more to do to be labelled world class.

    As for the Toner conversation I think he's one of those guys who people form an opinion on and then refuse to change it. The guy has developed his game a lot. His work rate is fantastic, his skills at maul and in the choke tackle are pretty obvious and he's got great hands too. All of this on top of his skills in the line-out and solidity in the scrum.


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    #641
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,212 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    Toner is a one trick Pony, purely there for his height in the lineout, he was like a headless chicken around the breakdown against Scotland.

    News just in: 6'11" lock in not dominating breakdown shocker despite never having had an impact there in his life.


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    #642
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    How didn't delon armitage even make the premlimary squad ??. He's one of the best players in Europe

    Parce qu'il joue en France.


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    #643
    Pudsy33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,745 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    How didn't delon armitage even make the premlimary squad ??. He's one of the best players in Europe

    Delon isn't that's good.

    Stefan, on the other hand, would be England's best back rower if he played 6, 7, or 8.


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    #644
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Pudsy33 wrote: »
    Delon isn't that's good.

    Stefan, on the other hand, would be England's best back rower if he played 6, 7, or 8.

    England would have beaten France at the weekend if Stefan was in the squad. He is by far and away the biggest loss to their team.

    Followed by Manu Tuilagi. If both were available for selection I'd actually put England as favourites to top their group and there is not many times you could say that about the potential impact of two players.


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    #645
    flangemeistro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭flangemeistro


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    This post says more about your perception of Toner and knowledge of the sport than it does about Toner's actual ability.

    You won't find many better at disrupting a maul and creating problems for opposition lineout, he passes well off both sides and for a big guy he seems to have a great engine and work rate. He is an ideal balancing act for O'Connell actually and we're damn lucky to have him.

    Breakdown merchant he is not, one trick pony he definitely isn't.

    IMO as far as Ireland is concerned Toner is not a leader or a very inventive second row and really needs a lot of direction, persuasion and delegation, which is all fine and well as long as Paulie is his Partner in crime because there's no better man to give you all of those in one swift blow but when he's not partnered with Paulie he gets found out and he seems lost.

    I reckon after this world cup and next year's six nations we will be seeing a lot less of Toner in the green.


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    #646
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Delon is a very good player and he offers long range goalkicking. His character though is another thing, in a highly charged international game I wouldn't trust him to not cheapshot someone (I believe he did it at the weekend against Racing and the victim Johan Goosen left the field with an injured shoulder).

    If he wasn't a card/suspension waiting to happen he would still be playing in England IMO and would be in the England 31.


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    #647
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    IMO as far as Ireland is concerned Toner is not a leader or a very inventive second row and really needs a lot of direction, persuasion and delegation, which is all fine and well as long as Paulie is his Partner in crime because there's no better man to give you all of those in one swift blow but when he's not partnered with Paulie he gets found out and he seems lost.

    I reckon after this world cup and next year's six nations we will be seeing a lot less of Toner in the green.

    I'm sorry, but this is laughable.


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    #648
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,212 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    IMO as far as Ireland is concerned Toner is not a leader or a very inventive second row and really needs a lot of direction, persuasion and delegation, which is all fine and well as long as Paulie is his Partner in crime

    Like the opener of last season's 6N with POC absent when Toner ran the set piece which we dominated and Ireland hammered Scotland?


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    #649
    flangemeistro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭flangemeistro


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but this is laughable.

    I'm glad i brightened up your Thursday but this is the way i see it and only time will tell.


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    #650
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    MJohnston wrote: »
    #CarryThemHome is a perfectly terrible slogan

    Marketing obviously werent told cipriani was being cut from the squad.


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    #651
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    Buer wrote: »
    Like the opener of last season's 6N with POC absent when Toner ran the set piece which we dominated and Ireland hammered Scotland?

    Was that the time POC had man-flu :-SS


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    #652
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Buer wrote: »
    Like the opener of last season's 6N with POC absent when Toner ran the set piece which we dominated and Ireland hammered Scotland?

    I don't think you're going to get very far with this. Some people made up their mind about Toner a long time before they ever saw him play for Ireland.


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    #653
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I don't think you're going to get very far with this. Some people made up their mind about Toner a long time before they ever saw him play for Ireland.

    Yep. I have a mate, who'd be a casual fan, I meet up with him for Leinster or Ireland games, and whenever he hears Toner is playing he's all 'Ah not that lanky so and so' and before I can correct him he always goes, 'I know, I know! I know he's playing really well lately, but I just hate him. I can't help it, I think he's useless!'.

    I find it hilarious, but some people just have it in for him and can't help it.


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    #654
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    I'm glad i brightened up your Thursday but this is the way i see it and only time will tell.

    Time has "told". You just missed it apparently.


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    #655
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,379 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    IMO as far as Ireland is concerned Toner is not a leader or a very inventive second row and really needs a lot of direction, persuasion and delegation, which is all fine and well as long as Paulie is his Partner in crime because there's no better man to give you all of those in one swift blow but when he's not partnered with Paulie he gets found out and he seems lost.

    I reckon after this world cup and next year's six nations we will be seeing a lot less of Toner in the green.

    3 heineken cups
    1 challange cup
    2 6 nations
    2 celtic leagues


    who is going to replace this 'directionless unimaginative' player.......


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    #656
    flangemeistro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭flangemeistro


    .ak wrote: »
    Yep. I have a mate, who'd be a casual fan, I meet up with him for Leinster or Ireland games, and whenever he hears Toner is playing he's all 'Ah not that lanky so and so' and before I can correct him he always goes, 'I know, I know! I know he's playing really well lately, but I just hate him. I can't help it, I think he's useless!'.

    I find it hilarious, but some people just have it in for him and can't help it.

    Ok my prediction is a long way off and a lot of people might not remember it come the South Africa tour next summer so I'll say this,
    O'Connell and Toner will not be our starting second Row when we face France in Cardiff.


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    #657
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    flangemeistro wrote: »
    Ok my prediction is a long way off and a lot of people might not remember it come the South Africa tour next summer so I'll say this,
    O'Connell and Toner will not be our starting second Row when we face France in Cardiff.

    Why, what's going to happen to Paulie?


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    #658
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    3 heineken cups
    1 challange cup
    2 6 nations
    2 celtic leagues


    who is going to replace this 'directionless unimaginative' player.......

    And for Toner it's harder again than most. First off he has the most innocent looking head on him, you wouldn't know he played rugby at all and he stopped ageing facially at around 16.

    Secondly, his name is Devon. I mean, he is named after a feckin custard. The guy does not come across as fearsome at all.

    Until you try to get a maul passed him.

    A lot of the begrudging he gets however are from people who simply want the guy on their team to start ahead of him, and you can't reason with that perspective.


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    #659
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,318 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Once Tuiliga was out Burgess was always going to be included. For all their finesse in the backs England need a plan B. I can kind of understand the decision but it's a bit of a hail Mary given the timing.

    Happy for Slade, though it leaves them very short of experience should they need to play both of these again.


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    #660
    Ceadog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭Ceadog


    pickarooney wrote: »
    For all their finesse in the backs England need a plan B.

    Think you might have gotten their plan A and plan B mixed up there :D


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    #661
    English Lurker
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭English Lurker


    Burgess has won most fans over. He wasn't as badly exposed in defence as we worried, he wasn't as greedy as we worried, and can definitely worry people in attack. A fantastic 12? No, but nobody England has is. He is also learning very fast and brings a lot of leadership and experience to the team.

    The most crucial thing about Burgess is just because he's going to the World Cup doesn't mean he'll be starting any important games. We can still gain the benefits of his character around the squad; we don't have to risk his frailities in big games; and if worse comes to worse, is he worse than Burrell or Twelvetrees? Arguments either way at worst. Internet rumour says Lancaster was favouring Burrell actually, and Farrell and Catt had to argue him into Burgess.

    edit: p.s. Plan A is currently give it to Joseph.


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