Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

The Lost Sheep

jacothelad wrote: »

There is a young guy, a 10, called Sam Wallace who plays for Carrick. He wouldn't look out of place playing for Ulster now but as he didn't go to one of the 'elite' schools he hasn't a hope. Nepotism and cronyism are rife in the wider sphere of Ulster rugby and the good young players see it. Here is an example. A couple of years ago, Sam Wallace's U16 team played a semi-final against Dromore and put 12 tries to none on them. They then played Banbridge in the final and beat them out of sight scoring 57 points in the process. Two weeks later the Ulster U16 team was announced. Virtually all the players came from Dromore and Banbridge. Guess how many Carrick players were selected...1. Guess which coaches select the U16 team. You'll be surprised I'm sure that it is in fact the coaches of Dromore and Banbridge.

Wallace was asked to go to Coleraine for a series of Ulster organised training sessions. He and a few other guys were stuck in a room and told to play with their phones until they were needed. Brilliant or what? It's no wonder young guys give up - especially those from non-rugby backgrounds.

But how do you fix/change things? Nepotism/cronyism etc is in all of irish rugby in one form or another but what do you do to change that? Nucifora is coming in and changing things but you need a sea change at all levels for change to come about in the long run.

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Also get more catholic schools playing the sport. Its almost as one sided up north as gaa. You can grow up and goto school in a catholic area and never see a rugby ball in the flesh until you reach adulthood.

Will you get schools playing? Would you not focus on clubs where at least you can get those interested in playing and there can be a mix. Ulster have tried in some areas like the Donegal Project but I haven't found anything much on that being continued in a few years

bilston wrote: »

I want to see rugby become a truly 9 county sport in Ulster. Donegal have two or three clubs like Inishowen and Sheephaven, Mongahan have Mongahan and I think there is a club called Virginia in Cavan, but really we need to see more done in those three counties. In saying that, it isn't just the three "southern (makes no sense to describe Donegal as that but you know what I mean!) counties" it would be great to see more done in Fermanagh as well, I think there is just Enniskillen and Clogher Valley (arguably Tyrone anyway) there.

Religion is a factor of course but it definitely isn't as big an issue as it used to be. I don't want to get into a political s***storm but I'd say there are a lot more Catholics playing rugby than there are Protestants playing GAA in Northern Ireland. But then Catholics are more likely to go to state schools than Protestants are to Catholic schools, and the growing Catholic middle class are a factor as well.

Getting into non traditional areas is important. Setting up a rugby club in West Belfast would be a good start for the Ulster Branch, but that probably needs to be locally driven, so in the meantime the Ulster Branch have to get into schools in the area. Playing Ulster A games around the province would be helpful as well, and to be fair this does happen.

Maybe the Ulster Branch could have a lottery each week for schools in Ulster whereby the lucky school that gets pulled out of the lottery gets 100 free tickets for an Ulster match, get kids along to watch Ulster live and that may encourage them to take more of an interest in the sport.

And like I mentioned Ulster did at least try in Donegal with a specific project aimed at getting more kids and clubs playing/
Don't think a lottery is needed each week for schools. Simply providing 30/40/50 tickets to 2/3 different schools from "non-traditional areas" for each home game is the way to go.
Munster do it with the local clubs and there is 4 regions in Munster and for each home munster game each region gets an allocation of tickets.

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I do not know enough about it to say that I would change it. But if it is not producing enough players to feed to the Irish system (which I assume is its purpose) then I am sure that it would be looked at by Nucifora and the powers that be with regards to reform or change.
What changes do you think need to be made to the Exiles system?

But it is producing some. When the players who play exiles will have lived most/all their life in England they'll have ties there and if given the chance many will take a shot with England/Wales or other nations as exiles team isn't limited to those countries. I don't think changes should be made to exiles. You said it was a shame Ulster were picking those who represented England at underage. They may have not been given the chance to play for Ireland as being in England many exiles wont be seen so again what do you think should be changed if you are disappointed with some who represented England at 18s are now looking at and coming here to play with the provinces?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bilston wrote: »

I want to see rugby become a truly 9 county sport in Ulster. Donegal have two or three clubs like Inishowen and Sheephaven, Mongahan have Mongahan and I think there is a club called Virginia in Cavan, but really we need to see more done in those three counties. In saying that, it isn't just the three "southern (makes no sense to describe Donegal as that but you know what I mean!) counties" it would be great to see more done in Fermanagh as well, I think there is just Enniskillen and Clogher Valley (arguably Tyrone anyway) there.

Looking at the list of players on the U18's Club Side I count 7/8 from Donegal/Cavan/Monaghan, out of about 44. A few of them don't have their clubs listed. That's roughly 20%, if my maths are right. I suppose it's not something you can compare with the other Provinces.

I don't know if anyone watched the videos Leinster put out about a few of their academy players? Peter Dooley, Adam Byrne, Tom Daly and Josh van der Flier featured and it was interesting to see that of the 4 of them VDF is the only one that came through a traditional rugby school. Now you could look at that and say yeah, he's the one playing regularly for Leinster and capped for Ireland but I thought it was interesting that there does seem to be more of a mix of where guys are coming from in Leinster now. I wouldn't be familiar enough with the geography of Munster/Connacht to comment there.

It makes sense to cast your net as far and wide as you can. How you get people to change their ways and do this and what the best way to do it is are another matter entirely.

I have a couple of young cousins in Donegal who started playing rugby a few years ago at a relatively new local club. They love it but the oldest one isn't even 12 yet so they're still at minis level really. I'm not sure what opportunities there are for them once the get that bit older. I doubt there's enough clubs within the county to field teams at all the under age levels or to provide any kind of regular competition for them. A lot of the kids are playing GAA too and will end up focusing on that once they get to a certain age. Any that want to keep up the rugby will end up having to travel to one of the established clubs in Letterkenny, Donegal etc.

leinstertalk

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I don't know if anyone watched the videos Leinster put out about a few of their academy players? Peter Dooley, Adam Byrne, Tom Daly and Josh van der Flier featured and it was interesting to see that of the 4 of them VDF is the only one that came through a traditional rugby school. Now you could look at that and say yeah, he's the one playing regularly for Leinster and capped for Ireland but I thought it was interesting that there does seem to be more of a mix of where guys are coming from in Leinster now. I wouldn't be familiar enough with the geography of Munster/Connacht to comment there.

They picked 4 lads who've came from pretty non tradition routes, even Wesley College being a rugby school, it rarely produces many players for leinster underage teams let alone the academy.

Most of the academy is still made up from the big rugby schools with St. Michaels dominating at the moment.

No that isn't to say there isn't an increase in players coming from non traditional routes but it's not a constant stream and really depends on the age group and players involved.

In the Leinster academy there is 3 lads who've came from a club only background, along with 3 more lads who moved to a rugby school from a club background to aid their development/play schools rugby.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

leinstertalk wrote: »

They picked 4 lads who've came from pretty non tradition routes, even Wesley College being a rugby school, it rarely produces many players for leinster underage teams let alone the academy.

Most of the academy is still made up from the big rugby schools with St. Michaels dominating at the moment.

To be fair, I think they picked them because they all live together in the one house

I just found it interesting that of all the Academy players these are they ones that I would be familiar with from them being in or around the senior team already. Apart from Ringrose I don't think I could name another Academy player off the top of my head.

So of the four players who this season are looking to break into the senior side and establish themselves 3 of them have come from regional representative sides rather than schools.

Ulster have an U18's Schools side and an U18's Clubs side but I would imagine when you look at the Academy side it's still mostly School's players?

Also an issue is probably the facilities available to players in the traditional rugby schools compared to clubs. Some of these school's have fully equipped gyms and state of the art training facilities. The lads coming through them are already at an advantage by they time they get to 16/17/18 over guys coming from a small club with two pitches and a set of changing rooms.

leinstertalk

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

To be fair, I think they picked them because they all live together in the one house

I just found it interesting that of all the Academy players these are they ones that I would be familiar with from them being in or around the senior team already. Apart from Ringrose I don't think I could name another Academy player off the top of my head.

So of the four players who this season are looking to break into the senior side and establish themselves 3 of them have come from regional representative sides rather than schools.

Ulster have an U18's Schools side and an U18's Clubs side but I would imagine when you look at the Academy side it's still mostly School's players?

Academy players who've played this season for Leinster:
Prop: Peter Dooley(Birr RFC)
Prop: Jeremy Loughman(Athy RFC/Blackrock College)
Lock: Ross Molony(St. Michaels College)
Backrow: Peadar Timmins(Clongowes Wood College)
Scrumhalf: Nick McCarthy(St. Michaels College)
Outhalf: Ross Byrne(St. Michaels College)
Outhalf: Joey Carbery(Athy RFC/Blackrock College)
Centre: Garry Ringrose(Blackrock College)
Wing: Cian Kelleher(St. Michaels College)
Wing: Adam Byrne(Naas RFC)

Tom Daly hasn't played for Leinster yet.
Josh Van Der Flier isn't in the academy.

I don't think there are any players from a club only background in the announced Ulster academy, they are all either ex schools, ex leinster or exiles.

leinstertalk

Ulster A squad (sponsored by CD Group) to play Munster A, Thursday 7th April 2016, Naas RFC, 3.00pm:
(15-9): Mark Best; Tommy Bowe, Darren Cave (captain), Sam Windsor, Jacob Stockdale(u20); Johnny McPhillips(u19), Dave Shanahan;
(1-8): Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Jonny Simpson, Alex Thompson, John Donnan, Stephen Mulholland, Clive Ross, Lorcan Dow;
Replacements: Johnny Murphy, Michael Lagan, Craig Trenier, Tommy O'Hagan, Connor Smyth, Conor Joyce, Conall Boomer(u20), Connor Young(u20), Andrew Magrath, David Busby, Rory Scholes.

Tommy O'Hagan is a prop who palys for Rainer OB who is now training three days a week with the Ulster Academy. The 21-year-old, who is big and strong with a dynamic side to his play, and a former gaelic footballer who made the transition into the Ulster set-up.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Good to see Tommy Bowe back.

RobbieRuns

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But it is producing some. When the players who play exiles will have lived most/all their life in England they'll have ties there and if given the chance many will take a shot with England/Wales or other nations as exiles team isn't limited to those countries. I don't think changes should be made to exiles. You said it was a shame Ulster were picking those who represented England at underage. They may have not been given the chance to play for Ireland as being in England many exiles wont be seen so again what do you think should be changed if you are disappointed with some who represented England at 18s are now looking at and coming here to play with the provinces?

I know that it is producing some, I mentioned Arnold and Marmion as examples previously, I never said that they were not. I just said that lots of players who are now playing for England age grade teams who do not choose Ireland at underage are getting Ulster contracts, which for the Irish Exiles system is a shame, I still stand by that. I never said that I would change anything, you were the one who said that. I would just prefer that they had come through the Irish age grade system rather than the English. Players like Marmion came here young, entered the academy, played for Ireland at age grade (as Arnold has) and has made the senior Connacht team and full Ireland team. It is just a point that I prefer that route rather than those who like Herron (and others) who played age grade with England, has lots of players ahead of him in Bath and then plumps for an Ireland declaration. Good luck to him as well. I am not condemning anyone or any system. It is pro rugby, they will make business decisions and take the best player that they can get, especially if they have Irish grannies.

RobbieRuns

leinstertalk wrote: »

Ulster A squad (sponsored by CD Group) to play Munster A, Thursday 7th April 2016, Naas RFC, 3.00pm:
(15-9): Mark Best; Tommy Bowe, Darren Cave (captain), Sam Windsor, Jacob Stockdale(u20); Johnny McPhillips(u19), Dave Shanahan;
(1-8): Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Jonny Simpson, Alex Thompson, John Donnan, Stephen Mulholland, Clive Ross, Lorcan Dow;
Replacements: Johnny Murphy, Michael Lagan, Craig Trenier, Tommy O'Hagan, Connor Smyth, Conor Joyce, Conall Boomer(u20), Connor Young(u20), Andrew Magrath, David Busby, Rory Scholes.

Tommy O'Hagan is a prop who palys for Rainer OB who is now training three days a week with the Ulster Academy. The 21-year-old, who is big and strong with a dynamic side to his play, and a former gaelic footballer who made the transition into the Ulster set-up.

That's a good looking team, brilliant to see Bowe back !

bilston

leinstertalk wrote: »

Ulster A squad (sponsored by CD Group) to play Munster A, Thursday 7th April 2016, Naas RFC, 3.00pm:
(15-9): Mark Best; Tommy Bowe, Darren Cave (captain), Sam Windsor, Jacob Stockdale(u20); Johnny McPhillips(u19), Dave Shanahan;
(1-8): Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Jonny Simpson, Alex Thompson, John Donnan, Stephen Mulholland, Clive Ross, Lorcan Dow;
Replacements: Johnny Murphy, Michael Lagan, Craig Trenier, Tommy O'Hagan, Connor Smyth, Conor Joyce, Conall Boomer(u20), Connor Young(u20), Andrew Magrath, David Busby, Rory Scholes.

Tommy O'Hagan is a prop who palys for Rainer OB who is now training three days a week with the Ulster Academy. The 21-year-old, who is big and strong with a dynamic side to his play, and a former gaelic footballer who made the transition into the Ulster set-up.

Will be interested to hear how Alex Thompson gets on. He is a guy with a decent reputation.

Great to see Tommy back. Hopes he comes through unscathed and maybe gets a run against Zebre next week.

Billysays no

neelia11 wrote: »

some of this argument could easily be leveled at the connacht team on the night too. Bottom line is Ulster were nowhere near full strength. Neither were connacht. On the night Ulster were simply the better side and if they had a better reserve 9 they probably would have got the TBP.

apprciate my rather somewhat flippant response. But it was related to this ludicrous response. If ulster had a team of 9ines they wouldn't have crossed the connact line in the last ten minutes. Leinster found out as much. So excuse me if i thought such a comment was comical

neelia11

Billysays no wrote: »

apprciate my rather somewhat flippant response. But it was related to this ludicrous response. If ulster had a team of 9ines they wouldn't have crossed the connact line in the last ten minutes. Leinster found out as much. So excuse me if i thought such a comment was comical

Whats ludicrous about suggesting a better 9, like pienaar, would have identified the space out wide and got the ball away from the pick and go's and mass of bodies? marshall made it very easy for connacht to defend.

Paul Smeenus

Billysays no wrote: »

apprciate my rather somewhat flippant response. But it was related to this ludicrous response. If ulster had a team of 9ines they wouldn't have crossed the connact line in the last ten minutes. Leinster found out as much. So excuse me if i thought such a comment was comical

Just as well the game was already comfortably won and they didn't need to, I suppose.

bilston

Ulster A beat Munster A 38-31 yesterday in Naas.

Tommy Bowe got 40 minutes of rugby under his belt.

Apparently Lorcan Dow was man of the match and scored two tries. Good to hear.

leinstertalk

On the topic of Sam Wallace, one of his underage teammates is currently involved with the Ulster sub academy, backrower Matthew Fisher. So how do you explain that?

jacothelad

leinstertalk wrote: »

On the topic of Sam Wallace, one of his underage teammates is currently involved with the Ulster sub academy, backrower Matthew Fisher. So how do you explain that?

Fisher is a very good prospect by all accounts.

bilston

jacothelad wrote: »

Fisher is a very good prospect by all accounts.

What age group are we talking here? About time we produced a back row, although the U19 captain Marcus Rea seems highly rated. Maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

bilston

So this Piutau fella isn't bad!

Hagz

Hopefully we'll see him in an Ulster shirt next season.

Utah_Saint

Hagz wrote: »

Hopefully we'll see him in an Ulster shirt next season.

Contract is signed so he'll be there

Hagz

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Contract is signed so he'll be there

Hopefully. That would be great.

former total

Hagz wrote: »

Hopefully. That would be great.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out alright.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

He was at Ravenspan the other week wasn't he? Would be surprised if he didn't turn out next season.

case885

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote:

He was at Ravenspan the other week wasn't he? Would be surprised if he didn't turn out next season.

He will of course, no evidence to suggest otherwise.

rsh118

I can't believe what a massive step up in talent there is to the All Blacks, Piutau looked like he was playing a different game a few times for Wasps.

If he doesn't make it to the Ravenspan next year could we not get Milner-Skudder instead?

bilston

Lads just leave Hagz's rod alone there:o

awec

Coetzee has done his knee, out for 9 months. :mad:

irishbucsfan

That'll help keep his price low when the Springboks buy out his contract!

bilston

awec wrote: »

Coetzee has done his knee, out for 9 months. :mad:

Bad news...however in saying that we wouldn't have seen him until October and we would have lost him for November as well so in truth we are probably missing him for about 6 weeks.

I'm just trying to be positive...

Buer

bilston wrote: »

Bad news...however in saying that we wouldn't have seen him until October and we would have lost him for November as well so in truth we are probably missing him for about 6 weeks.

I'm just trying to be positive...

9 months would put him out of all the pool stages of next season's RCC (possibly back for the last two games).