Reunification Question

Thomas_.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

More ludicrous, baseless nonsense. Although when your partners are katy and thomas what else is to be expected.

im still waiting on this link showing where Adams told protestants to get the boat to England. The story sourced from a mate's cousin's deaf uncle 40 years ago, or something equally reliable, that you all eagerly swallowed.

No? Anybody? .....

Well, for that link you can wait a long wait until someone is going to make an entry somewhere on the internet.

Whether there is a link to Adams´s speech in which he allegedly said that is one thing, but to realise the attitude of the likes who follow such "expressions" and would rather see the PULs leaving for good to make the way free for a UI is apparently just around the corner on this and other forums where republican nationalists give their best in expressing their opinions.

Maybe you´ve missed post #165 on this very thread. Of course this is open to Interpretation and to consider where such a place might be where Loyalists are "happy".

Oh, in that case I´m able to provide you with a link:

Here you go

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96225965#post96225965

Crooked Jack

Thomas_. wrote: »

Well, for that link you can wait a long wait until someone is going to make an entry somewhere on the internet.

Whether there is a link to Adams´s speech in which he allegedly said that is one thing, but to realise the attitude of the likes who follow such "expressions" and would rather see the PULs leaving for good to make the way free for a UI is apparently just around the corner on this and other forums where republican nationalists give their best in expressing their opinions.

Maybe you´ve missed post #165 on this very thread. Of course this is open to Interpretation and to consider where such a place might be where Loyalists are "happy".

Oh, in that case I´m able to provide you with a link:

Here you go

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96225965#post96225965

So the answer is no, there is still no link to this or a similar quote from Adams or Sinn Fein saying anything of the sort. Fair enough, back to throwing baseless accusations around.

Thomas_.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So the answer is no, there is still no link to this or a similar quote from Adams or Sinn Fein saying anything of the sort. Fair enough, back to throwing baseless accusations around.

I think that it´s just a short step from calling some people "bigots" to tell them to "take the ferry". I´m not bothering myself to dig out any link to the speech of Adams in Enniskillen in November 2014 for I trust you that this hasn´t passed you unnoticed. It´s been on the sites of plenty news providers on the internet.

Crooked Jack

Thomas_. wrote: »

I think that it´s just a short step from calling some people "bigots" to tell them to "take the ferry". I´m not bothering myself to dig out any link to the speech of Adams in Enniskillen in November 2014 for I trust you that this hasn´t passed you unnoticed. It´s been on the sites of plenty news providers on the internet.

What you "think" is irrelevant. You made a clear accusation about Adams, failed to back it up and the usual suspects greedily swallowed it.

Thomas_.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

What you "think" is irrelevant. You made a clear accusation about Adams, failed to back it up and the usual suspects greedily swallowed it.

Well, Jack, your demand of getting any link to it is a irrelevant as my thoughts. So, we can leave it just like that.

Fact is, that Adams can´t be trusted and I´m not the only one who thinks so.

Crooked Jack

Thomas_. wrote: »

Well, Jack, your demand of getting any link to it is a irrelevant as my thoughts. So, we can leave it just like that.

How? How in a discussion board is asking you to back up your claim irrelevant? How? Surely that forms part of the fundamental reason we're all here?
Creepin' Jesus!

Fact is, that Adams can´t be trusted and I´m not the only one who thinks so.

self contradictory post is self contradictory

Thomas_.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

How? How in a discussion board is asking you to back up your claim irrelevant? How? Surely that forms part of the fundamental reason we're all here?
Creepin' Jesus!

To put it simple, I don´t feel obliged to back up anything that I can´t by using the Internet to give you what you want which is a link. But in case I´ll come across such a Thing by coincidence, I´ll come back to that with a link (if there is any at all).

self contradictory post is self contradictory

Right. I don´t see myself contradicting myself at all.

Crooked Jack

Thomas_. wrote: »

To put it simple, I don´t feel obliged to back up anything that I can´t by using the Internet to give you what you want which is a link. But in case I´ll come across such a Thing by coincidence, I´ll come back to that with a link (if there is any at all).

You'll fit in well with the other anti-shinners on here so

Right. I don´t see myself contradicting myself at all.

You dont see a contradiction between claiming something is a fact and then offering as proof an opinion?

Thomas_.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You'll fit in well with the other anti-shinners on here so



You dont see a contradiction between claiming something is a fact and then offering as proof an opinion?

I have no Problem with admitting that I am indeed an anti-shinner because I really don´t like SF, their leaders, their followers, their policy and all what they altogether stand for.

As for your last line, I couldn´t care less.

katydid

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You'll fit in well with the other anti-shinners on here so

I am proud to be an "anti-Shinner", because I despise terrorism, murder and child abuse. I have NEVER failed to stand over a claim I have made about them; I don't need to, their antics are well documented.

Crooked Jack

katydid wrote: »

I am proud to be an "anti-Shinner", because I despise terrorism, murder and child abuse. I have NEVER failed to stand over a claim I have made about them; I don't need to, their antics are well documented.

Great, maybe you can back up this "get the ferry" claim then because i didnt see you opposing it when it was first posted

K-9

Mod:
Ok, both sides won the Internet. Can we move on from the Adams speech, its clear there are no records of it so no point everybody repeating that fact over and over and over. Cheers.

Ren2k7

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Just been watching the election chatter on the Beeb tonight and it got me thinking about something that Mary Lou McDonald was talking about.

If Northern Ireland had a referendum on reunification with the Republic, would a Yes result mean that the RoI would then have to have a referendum on accepting us or would the Gov make the decision themselves?

If so, has there been any polls done on the likely percentage outcome in the RoI? I'd assume that a Yes vote pretty much guaranteed?

I wouldn't expect that the remainder of the UK would have any input in this scenario based on what happened in Scotland. Probably be secretly glad to be rid of us!

Final question - if NI had a referendum and said No to reunification - when would be next possible date for the voters to go to the polls again for the same question?

Thanks.

It's all rather unclear how exactly such a poll would work; either as a single all-Ireland vote where a majority in each jurisdiction had to approve or merely a yes vote in the North followed by another poll in the Republic. And if both jurisdictions voted yes would there then have to be an all-Ireland constitutional convention formed to draft a new constitution and figure out what exactly the new post unification state would look like?

Personally I would rather all this was sorted out first before any poll which should ideally be held on an all-island basis. No point in voting on a hypothetical notion of reunification without knowing the specifics. Come up with a solid workable proposal for a new Irish state that encompasses all 32 counties, THEN put it to the nation. But having a poll in the North first without any idea of what is being voted on is doomed to failure.

katydid

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It's all rather unclear how exactly such a poll would work; either as a single all-Ireland vote where a majority in each jurisdiction had to approve or merely a yes vote in the North followed by another poll in the Republic. And if both jurisdictions voted yes would there then have to be an all-Ireland constitutional convention formed to draft a new constitution and figure out what exactly the new post unification state would look like?

Personally I would rather all this was sorted out first before any poll which should ideally be held on an all-island basis. No point in voting on a hypothetical notion of reunification without knowing the specifics. Come up with a solid workable proposal for a new Irish state that encompasses all 32 counties, THEN put it to the nation. But having a poll in the North first without any idea of what is being voted on is doomed to failure.

I suppose the poll in the North would simply be to find out if they wanted change or not. It could be taken from there.

It's all academic anyway, since the people of the Republic won't vote to take that dysfunctional place on board.

Ren2k7

katydid wrote: »

I suppose the poll in the North would simply be to find out if they wanted change or not. It could be taken from there.

It's all academic anyway, since the people of the Republic won't vote to take that dysfunctional place on board.

And you know this HOW?

eire4

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It's all rather unclear how exactly such a poll would work; either as a single all-Ireland vote where a majority in each jurisdiction had to approve or merely a yes vote in the North followed by another poll in the Republic. And if both jurisdictions voted yes would there then have to be an all-Ireland constitutional convention formed to draft a new constitution and figure out what exactly the new post unification state would look like?

Personally I would rather all this was sorted out first before any poll which should ideally be held on an all-island basis. No point in voting on a hypothetical notion of reunification without knowing the specifics. Come up with a solid workable proposal for a new Irish state that encompasses all 32 counties, THEN put it to the nation. But having a poll in the North first without any idea of what is being voted on is doomed to failure.

I see where your coming from in terms or workable propsals being put together before a unification vote although I doubt that would happen. Personally I am fine with holding a vote on unification and then if the vote is a yes having a timeframe over a few years to put all the nuts and bolts together before unifcation became complete.

eire4

katydid wrote: »

I suppose the poll in the North would simply be to find out if they wanted change or not. It could be taken from there.

It's all academic anyway, since the people of the Republic won't vote to take that dysfunctional place on board.

Certainly you do not support Unification that is very clear. However you do not speak for the people of Ireland.


According to a Red C/Sunday Times poll the margin in favour of unification in the Republic Of Ireland was 57-21.

katydid

eire4 wrote: »

Certainly you do not support Unification that is very clear. However you do not speak for the people of Ireland.


According to a Red C/Sunday Times poll the margin in favour of unification in the Republic Of Ireland was 57-21.

I'm not talking about what people would ideally like. If I was asked in a poll if I'd favour a united Ireland, I'd say yes; I'd like a united Ireland. But not under any circumstances, only if the North grows up and starts to behave like a normal place. I think you'll find that many people are like me.

eire4

katydid wrote: »

I'm not talking about what people would ideally like. If I was asked in a poll if I'd favour a united Ireland, I'd say yes; I'd like a united Ireland. But not under any circumstances, only if the North grows up and starts to behave like a normal place. I think you'll find that many people are like me.

O I agree there are indeed people like you but contrary to your blanket black and white statement about what the people of Ireland won't do
"the people of the Republic won't vote to take that dysfunctional place on board."


that polls shows the majority in the Republic of Ireland in favour of unification.

katydid

eire4 wrote: »

O I agree there are indeed people like you but contrary to your blanket black and white statement about what the people of Ireland won't do
"the people of the Republic won't vote to take that dysfunctional place on board."


that polls shows the majority of Irish people in favour of unifiction in the Republic of Ireland.

Based on your last sentence, you haven't understood a word I've written

Jim2007

eire4 wrote: »

According to a Red C/Sunday Times poll the margin in favour of unification in the Republic Of Ireland was 57-21.

To put it into perspective, this poll was taken in 2010 and in response to the question "Do you favour a united Ireland?": 57% answered yes, 22% answered no and 21% said they did not know.

That is a long way from where we are today and given the state of the country right now and in particular the debt levels, I would not be at all confident that a similar outcome would be likely if the same poll was undertaken right now.

eire4

Jim2007 wrote: »

To put it into perspective, this poll was taken in 2010 and in response to the question "Do you favour a united Ireland?": 57% answered yes, 22% answered no and 21% said they did not know.

That is a long way from where we are today and given the state of the country right now and in particular the debt levels, I would not be at all confident that a similar outcome would be likely if the same poll was undertaken right now.

Jim you are correct the poll was taken in 2010. Giving a clear majority in favour of unification.
If you are to talk about the state of the Irish economy having an impact on that majority in favour of unification I have no idea if it would either increase or lower the majority in favour of unification. But given the vote was taken in 2010 we economically in 2015 are much improved since then.

mfceiling

It's a bit of a moot point.

I would hazard a guess that...

ROI wouldn't want NI

England/UK wouldn't want NI

NI wouldn't want to leave England/UK

Jim2007

eire4 wrote: »

But given the vote was taken in 2010 we economically in 2015 are much improved since then.

From a numbers point of view I would agree with you, but from a perception point a few there are a lot out there that would not agree. So telling people that the country would take on additional debt and higher taxes, would not fly in my opinion.

We have to realise that any kind of union would be required to take on a portion of the UK national debt as we did in 1922.

Ren2k7

Jim2007 wrote: »

To put it into perspective, this poll was taken in 2010 and in response to the question "Do you favour a united Ireland?": 57% answered yes, 22% answered no and 21% said they did not know.

That is a long way from where we are today and given the state of the country right now and in particular the debt levels, I would not be at all confident that a similar outcome would be likely if the same poll was undertaken right now.

Until someone else comes along with a new opinion poll in the Republic on the issue of reunification existing polls from 2010 will remain a valid endorsement of the Irish people's desire to see a United Ireland. Though that won't stop those opposed to a UI claiming a "silent majority" agrees with them and a 32 county Ireland isn't supported by the majority of this state.

mfceiling wrote: »

ROI wouldn't want NI

Like I said, lack of proof never seems to stop some claiming the Irish people don't want a UI. We did back in 1918 and we do still want a single Irish republic in 2015.

Jawgap

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Until someone else comes along with a new opinion poll in the Republic on the issue of reunification existing polls from 2010 will remain a valid endorsement of the Irish people's desire to see a United Ireland. Though that won't stop those opposed to a UI claiming a "silent majority" agrees with them and a 32 county Ireland isn't supported by the majority of this state.



Like I said, lack of proof never seems to stop some claiming the Irish people don't want a UI. We did back in 1918 and we do still want a single Irish republic in 2015.

I don't doubt that a significant majority of Irish want a UI, just like the bulk of the Scots want independence.

Just because the aspiration exists, it doesn't mean people will vote for it, especially once the costs are laid out. NI is a moneypit, and one we'd struggle to afford, and that's before you factor in increased defence & security spending.

There'd need to be a lot more economic convergence before unification becomes politically possible.

Berserker

Ren2k7 wrote: »

And you know this HOW?

Well, I haven't seen or heard of any mass desire for a vote on the matter, have you? There is an appetite for another referendum on abortion, for example but I can't say that I have come across any significant desire for a vote on a UI.

Ren2k7 wrote: »

We did back in 1918.

Are you really trying to compare Ireland in 1918 to Ireland in 2015? Ireland in 1988 is a million miles away from Ireland today, let alone Ireland in 1918. 2015 is a far more tolerant an open-minded society and I do not see any want from the vast majority of the people to fulfil some "land grab" political ideology that belongs in 1918.

mfceiling wrote: »

NI wouldn't want to leave England/UK

It's funny you say that. A lad (early 30s) started work with us from N.I., south Armagh. He got his first pay slip last Friday and his jaw dropped when he saw all the deductions. He was stunned at the cost of rent in Meath prior to that. At lunch on Friday, he commented on how costly life is down here compared to NI. He has decided that he is not going to change his car from an NI registration to a RoI one due to the cost of tax, insurance and re-registering the car down here. We took that opportunity to remind him that it would be a good idea to get some private health insurance too, if he plans to stay here long term!

I think that many of the people in NI would have a similar reaction to the RoI when they sit back and take a look at the cost of living down here and they will realise how good they have things as part of the UK. The RoI would never be able to be the public ATM that London is for N.I..

Ren2k7

Jawgap wrote: »

I don't doubt that a significant majority of Irish want a UI, just like the bulk of the Scots want independence.

Just because the aspiration exists, it doesn't mean people will vote for it, especially once the costs are laid out. NI is a moneypit, and one we'd struggle to afford, and that's before you factor in increased defence & security spending.

There'd need to be a lot more economic convergence before unification becomes politically possible.

It'll still be many years before unification is a serious prospect so this should provide ample time and opportunity to reform Northern Ireland's massively dysfunctional economy.

In any case the economic argument by those opposed to a UI is a total red herring. No one suggests we dump Connemara or the West in general because it is massively subsidised by Leinster.

Ren2k7

Berserker wrote: »

Well, I haven't seen or heard of any mass desire for a vote on the matter, have you? There is an appetite for another referendum on abortion, for example but I can't say that I have come across any significant desire for a vote on a UI.

It's not an issue because every political party supports reunification but because this is dependent on the North wanting to join with us there's not much else we can do to force the issue. Although I accept successive Irish govts have done little to promote or advance the cause of unity. But that doesn't mean most Irish people don't support reunification. We do, as proved in every opinion poll.

Berserker wrote: »

Are you really trying to compare Ireland in 1918 to Ireland in 2015? Ireland in 1988 is a million miles away from Ireland today, let alone Ireland in 1918. 2015 is a far more tolerant an open-minded society and I do not see any want from the vast majority of the people to fulfil some "land grab" political ideology that belongs in 1918.

Maybe YOU don't want a UI but don't try and claim the rest of the Irish nation doesn't want unification with their fellow Irish in the occupied six.

Berserker wrote: »

It's funny you say that. A lad (early 30s) started work with us from N.I., south Armagh. He got his first pay slip last Friday and his jaw dropped when he saw all the deductions. He was stunned at the cost of rent in Meath prior to that. At lunch on Friday, he commented on how costly life is down here compared to NI. He has decided that he is not going to change his car from an NI registration to a RoI one due to the cost of tax, insurance and re-registering the car down here. We took that opportunity to remind him that it would be a good idea to get some private health insurance too, if he plans to stay here long term!

I think that many of the people in NI would have a similar reaction to the RoI when they sit back and take a look at the cost of living down here and they will realise how good they have things as part of the UK. The RoI would never be able to be the public ATM that London is for N.I..

That's says more about the utterly decrepit state of our republic than anything else in fairness.

Jawgap

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It'll still be many years before unification is a serious prospect so this should provide ample time and opportunity to reform Northern Ireland's massively dysfunctional economy.

In any case the economic argument by those opposed to a UI is a total red herring. No one suggests we dump Connemara or the West in general because it is massively subsidised by Leinster.

Unfortunately it's not a red herring. You can't wish the economics of unifying the island away.

The Scottish referendum showed us how hard reality very quickly cuts through misty eyed sentimentality.

For example, I wonder how many nationalists in NI would be in favour of their mortgage being in pounds, but their salaries in euros? Or how many would be happy about future pension benefits in a UI?

Likewise, how many in the Republic would be in favour of taking on those pension liabilities?

Also other questions - would the NHS or HSE go? What about education - properly free or free as it is in the Reoublic?

Policing - will the Guards be armed or will the PSNI disarm?

Household charges - will we have to take on their level of property taxes, and them take on our level of water charges?

Etc