Reunification Question

fartingforfun

Looks like Jeremy Corbyn will be next labour leader, he is in favour of NI leaving the UK.
It could be the start of proper debate in the UK about the future of NI in the UK.

Happyman42

fartingforfun wrote: »

Looks like Jeremy Corbyn will be next labour leader, he is in favour of NI leaving the UK.
It could be the start of proper debate in the UK about the future of NI in the UK.

Exactly, it will be a small shift that will change things, or a series of them, not seismic shifts.

sparky42

Jawgap wrote: »

The NI subsidy represents the equivalent of our entire PAYE income tax take. The costs are obvious from the NIE budgetary documents - Dublin would replace Westminster as the funder.

But I'm sure Pearse can make the economic argument

Oh sure those are just minor details, I mean just because the entire NI tax take (including their outsized PS) makes up just more than 1/4 of the Republic's entire tax take for a year is an insignificant gap between the economies...

And while Corbyn is going to get elected, he's already rowing back and saying everything he's put forward is "consultation, not policy", he'd have to bring the Labour party with him to get it a policy and then win the GE and then get it passed...

Rational, stable democratic politic debate is more likely to grow in NI before he manages all that.

Jawgap

fartingforfun wrote: »

Looks like Jeremy Corbyn will be next labour leader, he is in favour of NI leaving the UK.
It could be the start of proper debate in the UK about the future of NI in the UK.

Doubt it. Labour voting him in has probably just handed the Tories the next election

Risteard81

The last time the people of Ireland acting as a unit expressed their views was in 1919.

No referendum is required. Anything other than a united and free Ireland is illegal.

katydid

Risteard81 wrote: »

The last time the people of Ireland acting as a unit expressed their views was in 1919.

No referendum is required. Anything other than a united and free Ireland is illegal.

Have you never heard of the GFA?

Jawgap

Risteard81 wrote: »

The last time the people of Ireland acting as a unit expressed their views was in 1919.

No referendum is required. Anything other than a united and free Ireland is illegal.

What happened in 1919?

Are you suuuuure you don't mean 1918?


The first Dail met in 1919 following the 1918 general election

end of the road

katydid wrote: »

Have you never heard of the GFA?

yes, and much of that has no legitimacy. ireland still has a claim on NI and always will.

oscarBravo

end of the road wrote: »

yes, and much of that has no legitimacy. ireland still has a claim on NI and always will.

This is the sort of rhetoric that gives the rest of us chills: the idea that what 94% of the people of this Republic voted for "has no legitimacy".

That's a level of fanaticism that, frankly, has no place in the democratic political process.

katydid

end of the road wrote: »

yes, and much of that has no legitimacy. ireland still has a claim on NI and always will.

The democratic will of the majority has no validity...scary stuff.

Risteard81

Yes, sorry I meant Dáil Éireann convened in 1919.

We await the Third Dáil. The Second Dáil ceded its powers as Government of the Irish Republic to another authority to hold in trust until such time as an elected parliament can once again convene.

Jawgap

Risteard81 wrote: »

Yes, sorry I meant Dáil Éireann convened in 1919.

We await the Third Dáil. The Second Dáil ceded its powers as Government of the Irish Republic to another authority to hold in trust until such time as an elected parliament can once again convene.

And that's premised on an election that took place in 1918 that excluded large chunks of the electorate?

Godge

Risteard81 wrote: »

Yes, sorry I meant Dáil Éireann convened in 1919.

We await the Third Dáil. The Second Dáil ceded its powers as Government of the Irish Republic to another authority to hold in trust until such time as an elected parliament can once again convene.

Dail Eireann convened in 1919 has zero legitimacy as it breaches equality law.

Only women over 30 could vote while men over 21 and servicemen over 19 could vote.

It should be consigned to the dustbin of history because of the inherent inequality.

oscarBravo

Risteard81 wrote: »

We await the Third Dáil. The Second Dáil ceded its powers as Government of the Irish Republic to another authority to hold in trust until such time as an elected parliament can once again convene.

Wow. The rhetoric even sounds overtly religious.

eire4

Godge wrote: »

Dail Eireann convened in 1919 has zero legitimacy as it breaches equality law.

Only women over 30 could vote while men over 21 and servicemen over 19 could vote.

It should be consigned to the dustbin of history because of the inherent inequality.

Or more likely because you don't like its outcome.

Godge

eire4 wrote: »

Or more likely because you don't like its outcome.

It was nearly 100 years ago, there certainly isn't a woman alive who voted in it and any man who voted in it would be 115.

It was undemocratic in its electorate, there was no fair media coverage.

The only people who claim it as legitimate are fantasists.

The whole island voted overwhelmingly to accept the GFA. That is the democratically expressed will of the people. Anyone who says anything else is nuts.

end of the road

Godge wrote: »

It was nearly 100 years ago, there certainly isn't a woman alive who voted in it and any man who voted in it would be 115.

It was undemocratic in its electorate, there was no fair media coverage.

The only people who claim it as legitimate are fantasists.

The whole island voted overwhelmingly to accept the GFA. That is the democratically expressed will of the people. Anyone who says anything else is nuts.

the expressed will of the north. the south doesn't matter, its vote to remove irelands legitimate claim to the north means nothing as ireland will always have a legitimate claim to it dispite the southern unionists and free staters opinions

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

the expressed will of the north. the south doesn't matter, its vote to remove irelands legitimate claim to the north means nothing as ireland will always have a legitimate claim to it dispite the southern unionists and free staters opinions

Why?

Surely the essence of democracy is that a proposition is put before the people, a free and fair vote is held and the decision stands until its unwound or modified by another free and fair vote?

Kind of disturbing to think that there are people out there who think just because it's part of our contiguous island landmass it's 'ours' despite what the people who live there might think.

Jawgap

eire4 wrote: »

Or more likely because you don't like its outcome.

Jaysus, people are gas - no doubt the Shinners wouldn't be trumpeting the result of this election if it had gone the other way.

they'd be quick enough then to point out the exclusion of large numbers of women from voting, the tactics used to disrupt their meetings (instead of the ones actually used to disrupt IP meetings) :D

armaghlad

Jawgap wrote: »

Why?

Surely the essence of democracy is that a proposition is put before the people, a free and fair vote is held and the decision stands until its unwound or modified by another free and fair vote?

Kind of disturbing to think that there are people out there who think just because it's part of our contiguous island landmass it's 'ours' despite what the people who live there might think.

And when exactly was a "free and fair" vote taken to annex six counties, gerrymander them and subsequently create a society, defined inherently by sectarianism, that continues in existence to this day?

Jawgap

armaghlad wrote: »

And when exactly was a "free and fair" vote taken to annex six counties, gerrymander them and subsequently create a society, defined inherently by sectarianism, that continues in existence to this day?

There wasn't - so you right one wrong by perpetrating another?

And you can persist with that line of argument, but all ridiculous rhetoric like that does, imo, is alienate the moderates in the Republic making it increasing likely they'd not vote or vote no for a united Ireland.

Happyman42

armaghlad wrote: »

And when exactly was a "free and fair" vote taken to annex six counties, gerrymander them and subsequently create a society, defined inherently by sectarianism, that continues in existence to this day?

Now now, you are not allowed seek retribution for that, 'retribution' is reserved for one side only in the conflict. See any of the threads on NI for evidence.

Jawgap

Happyman42 wrote: »

Now now, you are not allowed seek retribution for that, 'retribution' is reserved for one side only in the conflict. See any of the threads on NI for evidence.

....and who exactly would retribution be visited on?

People who weren't even alive at the time of the 1918 election? :rolleyes:

Again, that mindset suggests a vote for unification is a vote to relocate the country to the 17th Century.......Shinners could help themselves and the cause of unification by being both less insular, more forward looking, less concerned about past wrongs and more concerned about future potential.

Happyman42

Jawgap wrote: »

....and who exactly would retribution be visited on?

People who weren't even alive at the time of the 1918 election? :rolleyes:

Again, that mindset suggests a vote for unification is a vote to relocate the country to the 17th Century.......Shinners could help themselves and the cause of unification by being both less insular, more forward looking, less concerned about past wrongs and more concerned about future potential.

Are you in denial about how long this went on...

gerrymander them and subsequently create a society, defined inherently by sectarianism,

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

Why?

Surely the essence of democracy is that a proposition is put before the people, a free and fair vote is held and the decision stands until its unwound or modified by another free and fair vote?

Kind of disturbing to think that there are people out there who think just because it's part of our contiguous island landmass it's 'ours' despite what the people who live there might think.

the south has sold itself out again and again to the EU to the detriment of all, so on such an issue they couldn't be trusted not to sell out our irish brothers up north if they voted to rejoin us. which is why only the north should decide our future, and we except them come what may as is our duty.

Jawgap

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are you in denial about how long this went on...

'Went' being the operative word.

why not come and join us in the 21st Century?

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

the south has sold itself out again and again to the EU to the detriment of all, so on such an issue they couldn't be trusted not to sell out our irish brothers up north if they voted to rejoin us. which is why only the north should decide our future, and we except them come what may as is our duty.

Seriously, 1.4 million people get to decide the future of the whole island, including the 4 or so million who live in the Republic?

Democracy in action :rolleyes:

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

Seriously, 1.4 million people get to decide the future of the whole island, including the 4 or so million who live in the Republic?

Democracy in action

yes i'm happy for that. its they who would be joining us . any of the arguments against can easily be solved now

Happyman42

Jawgap wrote: »

'Went' being the operative word.

why not come and join us in the 21st Century?

Why seek retribution (which you do all the time) for one side's contribution to the conflict and seek to minimise the cause of that conflict?

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

yes i'm happy for that. its they who would be joining us . any of the arguments against can easily be solved now

Unfortunately (for you), I doubt many of the rest of us would, thankfully.