Early Date Etiquette

Lollipops23

I'm living and working in Toronto at the moment and have been amazed at how high maintenance a lot of the ladies are here (I know plenty of Irish girls are too, but it's way more widespread here).

In the break room in work this morning one of the girls was telling a few of us about a date she was on last night and mentioned that she thinks a guy should pay for everything on all the early dates.

I said that, while it's nice for him to offer, I don't actually like it when a guy pays for everything and that if she expects equal pay to a man, she should expect to pay her share. This was not a popular opinion.

What do folk here think? Is it fair to expect a woman to pay for at least part of a date (maybe getting the first round in if he paid for dinner)?

Generic Dreadhead

Can't pay? Take her away!

Boskowski

I don't think it's so much a gender issue but a question of who asks who.

If I ask a lady for diner to get to know her then I'm basically inviting her for diner. No doubt I'll be paying.
If we agree to meet somewhere in a mutual fashion then it's different.
And if I was asked out for diner I would hardly presume I'm paying although I'd be prepared for it just in case.

Generally speaking I'd probably just pick up the tab the first time and probably the second time too but would get miffed if it became s habit and worse if no attempt was ever made to bring up the subject. And that's nothing to do with finances. It's more about being s princess which wouldn't go down well with me.

When the Sun Hits

I pay for everything. But then again two meals at Supermac's isn't very expensive anyway.

pmasterson95

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I'm living and working in Toronto at the moment and have been amazed at how high maintenance a lot of the ladies are here (I know plenty of Irish girls are too, but it's way more widespread here).

In the break room in work this morning one of the girls was telling a few of us about a date she was on last night and mentioned that she thinks a guy should pay for everything on all the early dates.

I said that, while it's nice for him to offer, I don't actually like it when a guy pays for everything and that if she expects equal pay to a man, she should expect to pay her share. This was not a popular opinion.

What do folk here think? Is it fair to expect a woman to pay for at least part of a date (maybe getting the first round in if he paid for dinner)?

I think ya wont get a date with her anytime soon.

Tilly

I'm a bit of a 50\50 kinda gal. I do like it when a guy pays for the odd thing but not always. I feel like i owe them something then if that makes any sense?

Cee-Jay-Cee

If she puts out on the first date I'll pay, if not, Fcuk off and pay for your own ya Fridget biaaatch!

_Kaiser_

I'd probably pay the first time (unless she insisted on paying her share) but after a few dates I'd expect a more equal setup.. not necessarily splitting every bill but say one person getting the cinema tickets and the other the snacks etc

Have no interest in being an ATM for someone. It never ends well!

Lollipops23

Tilly wrote: »

I'm a bit of a 50\50 kinda gal. I do like it when a guy pays for the odd thing but not always. I feel like i owe them something then if that makes any sense?

Exactly how I feel. Previous boyfriends/dates have always seemed surprised when I've been pretty insistent on paying my way. I went on a date here with a guy and he did pay for the food, and I made sure to get the first round in when we moved on to the bar.

osarusan

I'd ignore her perfunctory attempts to pay for the meal, gently take her hand off the bill/bill-holder, but keep hold of her hand, make eye contact, pause significantly, and say "no, you can get the condoms." Then raise an eyebrow, Bond-style.

kylith

I'd definitely offer to pay on a first date, or at least to split the bill. If he declined I would insist on paying for the next date.

conorhal

That entirely depends on whether or not sex in on the table shortly after the bill is.......


.

Magico Gonzalez

Invite someone out for dinner, you pay for the dinner. They pay for the first round if you go for a drink.

It's so awkward in a restaurant the whole "oh no, I insist, let me pay half" discussion, no one needs that kind of awkwardness on a first date. The only way that can be mitigated is if beforehand the invited guest insists that a condition of their coming along is that they pay half, still what do you do when the waiter comes..hand him two cards and face his accusing glances, "miserable guy complicating my life with 2 cards because he won't pay for his date"

Just thinking about it make me glad to be married. First date we went for a drink, i think i got a few rounds and then she got one after. Something like that.

dmc17

conorhal wrote: »

That entirely depends on whether or not sex in on the table shortly after the bill is.......


.

Would you wait until you get to the bedroom.....?

Junkyard Tom

It depends. If she's likeable then I'll go 50/50. If there's anything I don't like then it's out the bathroom window and run like fuck.

seamus

From what I can tell in the US & Canada the accepted norm is that on the first date, the man pays. A few people go by the "asker pays" rule, which we can all agree is pretty fair, but it's not a widely accepted rule.

However there's an issue in that women hold the sexual balance of power. If a woman asks a man on a date and then refuses to pay for the meal, there's a good chance he'll let it slide if he's attracted to her.
But if the man refused to pay (when the woman asked for the date), the odds of it going any further have just been eliminated.

As a result, it becomes an expected norm that the man always pays because he's the one doing the chasing.

fizzypish

I'll probably pay for everything provided its not expected of me. That pisses me off. I choose to pay and that may be stupid but its my choice.

Magico Gonzalez

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

It's so awkward in a restaurant the whole "oh no, I insist, let me pay half" discussion, no one needs that kind of awkwardness on a first date. The only way that can be mitigated is if beforehand the invited guest insists that a condition of their coming along is that they pay half, still what do you do when the waiter comes..hand him two cards and face his accusing glances, "miserable guy complicating my life with 2 cards because he won't pay for his date"

Eating in places like Germany is great I find - because both of the issues you describe above are simply non-issues there entirely. When the waiting staff come to the table to settle the bill - the first question out of their mouths is always "zusammen oder getrennt" or "Together or separate?".

If "together" then the bill gets handed to the person paying. If separate then with no fuss whatsoever each person is invited to identify what they had - and they are given a sub total.

And it is so obviously easy and smooth and issue free that it becomes bizarre to hear conversations like this one where it is portrayed as making the life of the waiting staff miserable. Quite the contrary. Not only is it remarkably easy and problem free - but the waiting staff benefit tips wise as they tend to get individually tipped by each diner - which generally adds up to more than a single payer would have given. Especially in large groups where - sometimes - the dynamic is that each successive tiper might even want to be seen to tip more than everyone else. So in large groups if you listen in - you tend to hear the tips getting higher and higher as the server goes around the group.

Chancer3001

He pays for a dinner, I buy a round....

So equal

Lollipops23

Deleted User wrote: »

E- the first question out of their mouths is always "zusammen oder getrennt" or "Together or separate?".

They normally do that here too. I've been out both with friends and with someone I was dating where they've asked before they get us our bill. Far less hoopla than at home, where they make such a song and dance about it if you want to split a bill.

Egginacup

That's why I like Liverpool girls.

They say "alright, fella. I just got paid. Let's get smashed and shag. My treat!"

thelad95

conorhal wrote: »

That entirely depends on whether or not sex in on the table shortly after the bill is.......


.

Some people may frown on ye having sex in a restaurant.

Firewalkwithme

Check this from about 7:25 if you want to cut to the chase

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKPrPxZnJPo

PLL

Guy pays first date. It's just the rule. After that anything goes, 50/50, she pays... Whichever.

I just think we have to grasp on to some of the traditional views in courtship. A little romance never hurt.

I don't think it's right for the guy to continue paying everything. Even when i was a student and dated a guy working in a well paid job who wanted to pay for everything and 'spoil me' as he put it
I still bought him a drink just to show some respect and as a thank you.

TheBeardedLady

Men pay for dates here too at the beginning of a relationship. You'd have a few exceptions but that'd generally be the rule for the majority from what I gather but Spain is still a traditional country.

I've always gone halves, personally. Can't remember if I've ever let a guy pay for a date. He might've paid for dinner and I'd get the drinks after or something. In my mind I've done that because it's fair, because I wanted things to feel equal and no one feeling they're owed or owe anything and because I've almost exclusively gone out with and dated broke fellas (except one very rich guy who I still insisted on going halves with).

Penny Tration

I generally offer to pay, or pay half.

Usually on the first date or two, the guy has never let me, so I make sure to tell him in advance of the third date that I'd like to pay, and usually then they're okay with it.

zeffabelli

Those are the manners in North Anerica, it's considered only a scumbag of a man does not do this.

El_Duderino 09

Did you ask if she's an escort? That sounds a lot like how relationships with escorts work.

El_Duderino 09

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

If she puts out on the first date I'll pay, if not, Fcuk off and pay for your own ya Fridget biaaatch!

This is probably a flippant comment but what is the guy paying for from the woman's perspective? Is he paying for her time? Is it a bribe to encourage her to give him a chance?

Unfortunately some fellas will think they're buying immunity from her saying 'no' when it comes to sex.

Feminism is about equality in relationships and expecting one side to pay for all the first dates is a serious risk to equality if the relationship continues. I'd do it once for the sake of tradition but I'd have much more respect for a woman who has ambition and wants to pay her way in the world.

Penny Tration

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is probably a flippant comment but what is the guy paying for from the woman's perspective? Is he paying for her time? Is it a bribe to encourage her to give him a chance?

Unfortunately some fellas will think they're buying immunity from her saying 'no' when it comes to sex.

Feminism is about equality in relationships and expecting one side to pay for all the first dates is a serious risk to equality if the relationship continues. I'd do it once for the sake of tradition but I'd have much more respect for a woman who has ambition and wants to pay her way in the world.

A lot of men seem to be affronted by a woman wanting to pay her way early on, from what I've experienced. I've only met maybe 2 men who were cool with me paying my way. The rest just got offended, saying it's their job to pay as a man.

That said, I also know a hell of a lot of women who refuse to pay for dates at all. Princesses.

El_Duderino 09

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

A lot of men seem to be affronted by a woman wanting to pay her way early on, from what I've experienced. I've only met maybe 2 men who were cool with me paying my way. The rest just got offended, saying it's their job to pay as a man.

That said, I also know a hell of a lot of women who refuse to pay for dates at all. Princesses.

And what if the woman would prefer another restaurant? Can she simply say 'I don't like this placr' if someone else is paying? Being offended by a woman wanting to pay her way sounds like controlling behaviour from the guy.

I suppose it made sense in a world where women couldn't have careers but now it's just an unhelpful tradition.

TheBeardedLady

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

A lot of men seem to be affronted by a woman wanting to pay her way early on, from what I've experienced. I've only met maybe 2 men who were cool with me paying my way. The rest just got offended, saying it's their job to pay as a man.

I've had a lot of first dates in my life and I can honestly say I've never met a man who had a problem with me paying my way on initial dates. One guy was bemused (the rich dude I mentioned earlier) but the rest took it as the norm. If a guy got offended as opposed to being a bit surprised, a second date wouldn't be forthcoming. Very strange reaction to someone who's just trying to be fair.

Penny Tration

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

I've had a lot of first dates in my life and I can honestly say I've never met a man who had a problem with me paying my way on initial dates. One guy was bemused (the rich dude I mentioned earlier) but the rest took it as the norm. If a guy got offended as opposed to being a bit surprised, a second date wouldn't be forthcoming. Very strange reaction to someone who's just trying to be fair.

Oh yeah, I agree and in all but one case, there was no second date.

I like paying my share so anyone who doesn't like it can feck off tbh.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Eating in places like Germany is great I find - because both of the issues you describe above are simply non-issues there entirely. When the waiting staff come to the table to settle the bill - the first question out of their mouths is always "zusammen oder getrennt" or "Together or separate?".

If "together" then the bill gets handed to the person paying. If separate then with no fuss whatsoever each person is invited to identify what they had - and they are given a sub total..

See - who says ze germans don't get romance!

osarusan

Maybe some guys feel a bit threatened if the girl makes an offer to pay/split the bill, as they see an inference that they can't fulfill their role and 'take care of' the woman?

TheBeardedLady

osarusan wrote: »

Maybe some guys feel a bit threatened if the girl makes an offer to pay/split the bill, as they see an inference that they can't fulfill their role and 'take care of' the woman?

Well, I understand that's the dynamics in some relationships but it wouldn't be the kind of relationship I'd like to be in. I want to "take care of" the man as well. I cooked a meal for me fella for our second date partly to show case the kinda woman I was and set a precedent for our relationship.


It could be a signal that the man in question has an "old fashioned" idea of what a relationship constitutes but many women do too, to be fair. Good luck to them!

TrustedApple

I be one with saying the lad has to pay for the dinner or 1st drinks on a date basicly what ever comes 1st.

There a few months ago I was on a date and the girl in quastion was buying my drinks for the night and I felt extramly guilty for it. Any time I got up to go to the loo she had another bottle of beer for me at the table.

I was on another date there last weekend and we went to sew a film and she had the money out to pay for me but I said nope to her and pushed the money out of the way and paid for both of us as I just don't like people paying for my stuff at all.

But the lad paying for the date I think gives a good sign that he is not afard to put his hand in his pucket and is not a complate tight ass with money

zeffabelli

osarusan wrote: »

Maybe some guys feel a bit threatened if the girl makes an offer to pay/split the bill, as they see an inference that they can't fulfill their role and 'take care of' the woman?

I think it could be read as some kind of feminist statement and that would make them alert to ideological insanity.

osarusan

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Well, I understand that's the dynamics in some relationships but it wouldn't be the kind of relationship I'd like to be in. I want to "take care of" the man as well. I cooked a meal for me fella for our second date partly to show case the kinda woman I was and set a precedent for our relationship.


It could be a signal that the man in question has an "old fashioned" idea of what a relationship constitutes but many women do too, to be fair. Good luck to them!

The funny thing, from my perspective at least (and this was 10+ years ago) is that if i get the impression that the girl is happy to pay, go halves, etc, then I'm happy to pay!

It's when it seems expected that I pay that I get less happy about it.

TheBeardedLady

zeffabelli wrote: »

I think it could be read as some kind of feminist statement and that would make them alert to ideological insanity.

Ye wha?

osarusan

zeffabelli wrote: »

I think it could be read as some kind of feminist statement and that would make them alert to ideological insanity.

I think that is ridiculous.

TheBeardedLady

osarusan wrote: »

The funny thing, from my perspective at least (and this was 10+ years ago) is that if i get the impression that the girl is happy to pay, go halves, etc, then I'm happy to pay!

It's when it seems expected that I pay that I get less happy about it.

Yeah nobody, man or woman, wants to be taken for a mug.

zeffabelli

osarusan wrote: »

I think that is ridiculous.

It could be read that way, in cultures where its the norm. The man might read it as, oh here we go.... here she is asserting her inependence to send me a message loud and clear...

TheBeardedLady

zeffabelli wrote: »

It could be read that way, in cultures where its the norm. The man might read it as, oh here we go.... here she is asserting her inependence to send me a message loud and clear...

Well the man is a gob****e then.

zeffabelli

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Well the man is a gob****e then.

Think about it...if it's the norm, which it is in Canada and the US, and this woman in the OP was in Toronto, and you deviate from that.... then yes it could be read as infection by insane ideology.

You may not think feminism is for the ideologically insane, but many do, myself included in that.

TheBeardedLady

zeffabelli wrote: »

Think about it...if it's the norm, which it is in Canada and the US, and this woman in the OP was in Toronto, and you deviate from that.... then yes it could be read as infection by insane ideology.

You may not think feminism is for the ideologically insane, but many do, myself included in that.

Haha! Okely dokely. Good luck with that. Hope you and your high-maintenance princess live happily ever after.

osarusan

zeffabelli wrote: »

The man might read it as, oh here we go.... here she is asserting her inependence to send me a message loud and clear...

To me, it sounds more like something some women might like to think (or hope?) the man believes, and is scared by.

EDIT: Just saw this:

zeffabelli wrote: »

Think about it...if it's the norm, which it is in Canada and the US, and this woman in the OP was in Toronto, and you deviate from that.... then yes it could be read as infection by insane ideology.

You may not think feminism is for the ideologically insane, but many do, myself included in that.

Yeah, good luck.

zeffabelli

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Haha! Okely dokely. Good luck with that. Hope you and your high-maintenance princess live happily ever after.

Genuinely it is the norm in North American.

It is considered highly scummy not to pick up the tab. You wont get a second date.

saintsaltynuts

If your going to be paying for everything on the first date that deserves at least a sticky finger.

TheBeardedLady

zeffabelli wrote: »

Genuinely it is the norm in North American.

It is considered highly scummy not to pick up the tab. You wont get a second date.

Groovy. I don't live in North America though.

zeffabelli

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Groovy. I don't live in North America though.

Yeah ok, but OP does, which is more relevant to understanding the dialogue he is referencing.