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Best car for towing using a B licence

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    #62
    Pov06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Pov06




    Not a bother on her!


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    #63
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Augeo wrote: »
    Two posts ago you described struggling at 3700rpm neccesitating the change to 2nd for 6000rpm did you not?

    Now 3000rpm is fine.

    Yes, but please take notice, that in my little story this struggling at 3700rpm was on 3rd gear, and now we are talking about 3000rpm on 2nd gear. That's what makes major difference.
    It's the torque on driving wheels which we should be interested on - not on the engine.
    And torque on driving wheels in higher on 2nd gear at 6000rpm, then at 3700rpm on 3rd, even if peak torque for that engine was at 3700rpm.


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    #64
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Pov06 wrote: »
    Not a bother on her!


    That's brilliant and reminds me of this one:

    Fiat 126 (650cc - 24bhp - two cylinder)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myRsKVfbMuI


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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    .... Cinio, the first mention of a required 6000rpm to tow was from you, you now are saying half of that is fine.


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    #66
    Pov06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Pov06


    Augeo wrote: »
    .... Cinio, the first mention of a required 6000rpm to tow was from you, you now are saying half of that is fine.

    Depends if you want to warm your clutch up or rev it up and dump the clutch :P


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    #67
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Augeo wrote: »
    .... Cinio, the first mention of a required 6000rpm to tow was from you, you now are saying half of that is fine.

    OK let me explain then... from physical point of view.

    For towing you need a bigger pulling force. It's easy to imagine as few lads pushing a car.
    A small car you can probably push yourself on flat. If you want a push heavy van you might need few lads - in other words bigger force.

    This force is linearly related to torque on driving wheels - the greater the torque to greater the pulling force.

    Now - let's say car has a petrol engine with peak torque at 3500rpm and max power at 6000rpm.
    The greatest pulling force will be at revs of peak torque so it's 3500rpm.
    However you have to consider torque at driving wheel, and this depends on gear ratio.
    So while withing 1st gear, greatest pulling force will be at 3500rpm, but when you switch to 2nd pulling force will fall dramatically. If you compare pulling force on 2nd gear at 3500 (highest achievable on that gear) it still will be lower than force at 6000rpm on 1st gear.
    Same going further - pulling force on 3rd gear at 3500rpm will be lower than pulling force at 6000rpm on 2nd gear.

    So if you want to have maximum pulling force available at 50mph, you are better to choose 2nd gear at 6000rpm than 3rd gear at 3500rpm.

    Hope that clears it up for you.


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cinio, nothing would clear up the contradicting posts from yourself in this topic. The only reason I mentioned 50mph was because you stated 6000rpm and away you go. You seem oblivious to some of your posts.


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    #69
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Augeo wrote: »
    Cinio, nothing would clear up the contradicting posts from yourself in this topic. The only reason I mentioned 50mph was because you stated 6000rpm and away you go. You seem oblivious to some of your posts.

    Which of my posts are contradicting?
    My post above, explains a small bits which were included in posts before it.

    Just tell me if you agree with that post or not?


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CiniO wrote: »
    Which of my posts are contradicting?
    My post above, explains a small bits which were included in posts before it.

    Just tell me if you agree with that post or not?

    Your post above is fine, however if 6000rpm is required in 2nd to pull a trailor uphill than dropping the revs to 3000 won't work.

    No doubt you'll now claim 6000rpm wasn't actually required at all though...


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    #71
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Augeo wrote: »
    Your post above is fine, however if 6000rpm is required in 2nd to pull a trailor uphill than dropping the revs to 3000 won't work.
    No doubt you'll now claim 6000rpm wasn't actually required at all though...

    Looks strange
    If green is true, then red can't be true, because my post suggested otherwise.

    Anyway - believe me - that's correct.
    You will have greater pulling power at 3000rpm than at 6000rpm within the same gear, just because engine torque at 3000rpm will be higher than at 6000rpm.


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CiniO wrote: »
    That's what engines are for - 6000rpm and off you go.
    CiniO wrote: »
    Looks strange
    If green is true, then red can't be true, because my post suggested otherwise.

    Anyway - believe me - that's correct.
    You will have greater pulling power at 3000rpm than at 6000rpm within the same gear, just because engine torque at 3000rpm will be higher than at 6000rpm.

    Why did you not initially say 3000rpm and off you go so ?


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    #73
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Augeo wrote: »
    Why did you not initially say 3000rpm and off you go so ?
    He also forgot to adjust his mirrors, put it in gear, leave off the handbrake, mirror signal manouevre etc...

    But actually I don't think his post was to be interpreted as a step by step rulebook. I don't think he was expecting the Spanish Inquisition like.


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CiniO wrote: »
    That's what engines are for - 6000rpm and off you go.
    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    He also forgot to adjust his mirrors, put it in gear, leave off the handbrake, mirror signal manouevre etc...

    But actually I don't think his post was to be interpreted as a step by step rulebook. I don't think he was expecting the Spanish Inquisition like.

    You'd imagine he expected that rubbish to be questioned :)
    He's still standing over it despite contradicting it.


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    #75
    Pov06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Pov06


    Augeo wrote: »
    You'd imagine he expected that rubbish to be questioned :)
    He's still standing over it despite contradicting it.

    The fact of the matter is you can easily tow a trailer with a 120 HP petrol engine. You can say what you but it won't change factual information.

    Your argument is that diesel has more torque low down and can pull it at lower revs more comfortably. Well sure a car with 10000 HP and 100000 Nm of torque will also pull the trailer more comfortably, doesn't mean you actually need that power...


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    #76
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Augeo wrote: »
    Why did you not initially say 3000rpm and off you go so ?
    Augeo wrote: »
    You'd imagine he expected that rubbish to be questioned :)
    He's still standing over it despite contradicting it.

    OK I tried my best explaining it to you, but it doesn't seem to be working.
    Maybe an example then.

    Imagine a car with heavy trailer. You are to drive on an incline.
    You put 1st gear and off you go - you keep accelerating until 6000rpm - so far no problem - car has enough pulling force and you just reached 25mph. So you swap to 2nd and keep accelerating - again same story - you reached 6000rpm, car is doing 50mph and no problems so far.
    But then you decide to swap to 3rd. Revs fall to 3000rpm and car starts struggling. You can see it's barely making it, and on spots incline gets steeper, it slows down. So what do you do then?
    You reduce gear to 2nd - rev jump to 6000rpm and car is not struggling anymore.

    Do you understand it now?
    If you have a choice between 3000rpm on 3rd where engine is struggling or 6000rpm on second where engine has still some power to spare - you should choose 6000rpm on second.

    Obviously you could keep the 2nd gear and slow down from 50mph to 25mph and keep revs at 3000rpm on 2nd gear.
    But that's not what we want. We don't want to be driving at 25mph but keep reasonable speed instead like 50mph.

    Hope that's clear now.


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    #77
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    dgt wrote: »
    I'm sure you misinterpreted me the first time but either way thats my question sort of answered

    Well when I was 17 and passed my driving test, my dad had cinquecento 0.7 litre 30bhp.
    If you packed this car with 5 lads total weight was probably about 1100kg (700kg car + load). And it was perfectly possible to drive it.
    Indeed on inclines I had to reduce down to 3rd or often 2nd gear and keep revving at 6000rpm to make it up the hill at 50km/h. On really steep hills I had to go up on 1st gear. But made it no problem.

    So I can't see how 120bhp engine could be a problem with set weighting 3000kg.


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    #78
    dgt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,985 ✭✭✭✭dgt


    CiniO wrote: »
    Well when I was 17 and passed my driving test, my dad had cinquecento 0.7 litre 30bhp.
    If you packed this car with 5 lads total weight was probably about 1100kg (700kg car + load). And it was perfectly possible to drive it.
    Indeed on inclines I had to reduce down to 3rd or often 2nd gear and keep revving at 6000rpm to make it up the hill at 50km/h. On really steep hills I had to go up on 1st gear. But made it no problem.

    So I can't see how 120bhp engine could be a problem with set weighting 3000kg.

    Theres no dispute it can't tow that weight/get up hills etc.

    But with constant inclines and declines, with brake fade/clutch under pressure... Would you be comfortable?


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CiniO wrote: »
    ......

    Do you understand it now?
    ....
    Hope that's clear now.

    As per your fiat cinq 700cc example the risk is the incline increases and 6000rpm in 2nd doesn't cut the mustard and 1st is needed.

    So as you yourself have first hand experience if the 6000rpm and away you go theory is heavily flawed. Going up inclines with the engine screaming in 1st isn't ideal, practical or mechanically sympathetic. In real life you have seen the problems of an excessive load, yet you rationalise it as fine, no problem etc. Ludicrous views.

    In the specific case here a 12% incline is the manufacturers limit.


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    #80
    Flood
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Flood


    Their is only one thing for it is to test it, anyone have a golf that they would like to loan for the testing, will need to sign a disclaimer! I can provide the trailer and handicap it with blocks to get it to weight 1700kg. :pac:


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    #81
    Pov06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Pov06


    Flood wrote: »
    Their is only one thing for it is to test it, anyone have a golf that they would like to loan for the testing, will need to sign a disclaimer! I can provide the trailer and handicap it with blocks to get it to weight 1700kg. :pac:

    The funny thing is you could easily tow it.

    The problem is people who will always answer "TDI Passat" when asked for any kind of car. "What's the most economical car? TDI Passat", "I need a car for the drag strip, what can you recommend? TDI Passat", "I drive 3 km a day and need a good car. Get a TDI Passat".

    Same case scenario, just random pub talk of this, that and the other. Every reasonably sized modern car is more than capable of towing without any issues.

    Yes your diesel might feel super easy at towing, but that is not to say you need a diesel engine to tow a trailer. You can easily do it with a small petrol engine. If you are scared of having to shift down gears into 2nd or 1st on an incline then you should really resit the driving test because clearly you cannot deal with simple hazards.


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    #82
    Flood
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Flood


    Pov06 wrote: »
    Yes your diesel might feel super easy at towing, but that is not to say you need a diesel engine to tow a trailer. You can easily do it with a small petrol engine. If you are scared of having to shift down gears into 2nd or 1st on an incline then you should really resit the driving test because clearly you cannot deal with simple hazards.

    You are the one waffling on about tdi passats so not sure where that speech is coming from. :confused:
    If I have to go down to first gear and rev to 6000rpm I better hope the incline wont get any higher because when you think about it there is not an awful lot more one can do besides burning out a clutch and hope to christ the auto reverse is faulty and the brakes jam on the trailer if I start going backwards. :pac:


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    #83
    Pov06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Pov06


    Flood wrote: »
    You are the one waffling on about tdi passats so not sure where that speech is coming from. :confused:
    If I have to go down to first gear and rev to 6000rpm I better hope the incline wont get any higher because when you think about it there is not an awful lot more one can do besides burning out a clutch and hope to christ the auto reverse is faulty and the brakes jam on the trailer if I start going backwards. :pac:

    I used TDI Passat as an example here. It's the best car in the world according to pub talk.

    You'd be some numpty to choose a route with a gigantic incline in the first place IMO.


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