Best car for towing using a B licence

Flood · 27-04-2015 3:17pm

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

There's a you tube video of a little Renault towing a large caravan uo mountain by some cyclists,and then coming back backwards:eek:. Perhaps some tech savy person could link it here.

27-04-2015 3:28pm

CiniO wrote: »

That's what engines are for - 6000rpm and off you go.

Can't imagine any sane person thinking that's appropriate.

Pov06 · 27-04-2015 4:06pm

Augeo wrote: »

Can't imagine any sane person thinking that's appropriate.

Can't imagine your average driver understanding anything about car engines either, but there you go.

27-04-2015 4:40pm

Pov06 wrote: »

Can't imagine your average driver understanding anything about car engines either, but there you go.

Most understand enough to know that reving the engine to 6000rpm in order to tow isn't the done thing.

Pov06 · 27-04-2015 5:16pm

Augeo wrote: »

Most understand enough to know that reving the engine to 6000rpm in order to tow isn't the done thing.

Welcome to CVT gearboxes.

CiniO · 27-04-2015 9:14pm

Augeo wrote: »

Most understand enough to know that reving the engine to 6000rpm in order to tow isn't the done thing.

Nothing wrong with revving to 6000rpm.
Engines are designed to work without any problems at that revs.

Mycroft H · 27-04-2015 9:49pm

Agree with CiniO here. VW says it's fine to tow the limit with a braked trailer. Can't argue with the facts here. VW, I'm sure, know their own products. Why would they say it's fine to tow up to a limit when it's not. Probably the same people who still think you can only tow a twin axle with a 4x4.

VW says it produces 200nm of torque between 1400 to 4000rpm. That's plenty of low down torque. The 1.6 diesel produces 230nm between 1400 and 2300rpm. Near enough the same but with a narrower band.

Flood · 27-04-2015 10:10pm

The 12% incline would want to be religiously obeyed if one has any chance.

28-04-2015 8:23am

Pov06 wrote: »

.............
Welcome to CVT gearboxes.

Hardly relevent to someone reckoning it's perfectly fine to get a car (golf iirc) revving to 6000rpm in order to tow.

CVT gearboxes are nothing new btw

CiniO · 28-04-2015 8:30am

Augeo wrote: »

Hardly relevent to someone reckoning it's perfectly fine to get a car (golf iirc) revving to 6000rpm in order to tow.

CVT gearboxes are nothing new btw

Most petrol engines reach their maximum power at around that range of 6000rpm.
If that's the case what you're suggesting that this particular engine is not powerful enough to tow heavy trailer, then in order to use maximum power this engine provides, its best to rev it to 6000

Pov06 · 28-04-2015 9:54am

Augeo wrote: »

Hardly relevent to someone reckoning it's perfectly fine to get a car (golf iirc) revving to 6000rpm in order to tow.

CVT gearboxes are nothing new btw

Well if it's perfectly acceptable to run the engine at 6000 RPM with a CVT gearbox to get the most power then there is nothing wrong with running any engine at 6000 RPM (as long as it is below the rev limiter).

Nobody said CVT gearboxes are new, clearly you have a similar mindset of most people who think revving their car past 3000 RPM is going to make the world explode.

Mycroft H · 28-04-2015 11:16am

I've to rev the Jimny to 6000 if I need to overtake quickly, never mind with a trailer. Car hasn't exploded yet.

28-04-2015 12:34pm

CiniO wrote: »

....

Surely 122hp is well more than enough to tow 1700kg trailer.

Jesus. wrote: »

You'd have to rag the sh1t out of it

CiniO wrote: »

That's what engines are for - 6000rpm and off you go.

CiniO wrote: »

Most petrol engines reach their maximum power at around that range of 6000rpm.
If that's the case what you're suggesting that this particular engine is not powerful enough to tow heavy trailer, then in order to use maximum power this engine provides, its best to rev it to 6000

No cinio, it was you who suggested revving this engine to 6000rpm and off you go.... In 2nd it'd be at over 50mph and in 1st almost 30.

Lunacy.

28-04-2015 12:35pm

Pov06 wrote: »

Well if it's perfectly acceptable to run the engine at 6000 RPM with a CVT gearbox to get the most power then there is nothing wrong with running any engine at 6000 RPM (as long as it is below the rev limiter).

Nobody said CVT gearboxes are new, clearly you have a similar mindset of most people who think revving their car past 3000 RPM is going to make the world explode.

Mycroft H wrote: »

I've to rev the Jimny to 6000 if I need to overtake quickly, never mind with a trailer. Car hasn't exploded yet.

I'm wondering are ye semi illiterate, slow or trolling...

Mycroft H · 28-04-2015 1:52pm

not sure what your getting at here.....

CiniO · 28-04-2015 9:10pm

Augeo wrote: »

No cinio, it was you who suggested revving this engine to 6000rpm and off you go....

Let's have a look again:

CiniO:
If that's the case what you're suggesting that this particular engine is not powerful enough to tow heavy trailer, then in order to use maximum power this engine provides, its best to rev it to 6000

Augeo:
No cinio, it was you who suggested revving this engine to 6000rpm and off you go

Either there's something majorly wrong with my perception, or you just didn't bother reading what I said.

In 2nd it'd be at over 50mph and in 1st almost 30.

Lunacy.

That's possible.
So let's say you want to drive 50mph with a trailer.
In 5th at 2000rpm your engine is struggling, so you reduce down to 4th - revs rise to 2800rpm and engine is still struggling. So you reduce further to 3rd and now at 3700rpm engine is running fine without struggle.
However you are reaching an incline, and engine again starts to struggle up the hill at 3700rpm, so then you reduce to 2nd, and at 6000rpm you are perfectly fine to climb the incline. All the time at 50mph.

Where can you see the problem with all that?

Flood · 28-04-2015 10:46pm

CiniO wrote: »

So let's say you want to drive 50mph with a trailer.
In 5th at 2000rpm your engine is struggling, so you reduce down to 4th - revs rise to 2800rpm and engine is still struggling. So you reduce further to 3rd and now at 3700rpm engine is running fine without struggle.
However you are reaching an incline, and engine again starts to struggle up the hill at 3700rpm, so then you reduce to 2nd, and at 6000rpm you are perfectly fine to climb the incline. All the time at 50mph.

Where can you see the problem with all that?

One problem I see is the dmf and clutch blowing its balls within a very short space of time. A vw golf pulling 1700kg with that proposed driving style also potentially has other issues.
You would be putting fair pressure on the cooling system also.

browniepoints · 28-04-2015 10:47pm

In the old days we would tow with 1600 petrol engines two tons no sweat and that was only 75BHP engines. That could be trailers with cows horse the caravans the farm trailers with hay the lot.

As long as the trailer was braked type and if it was wet you drove extra slow no major issues.

it was simple plenty of wellie 6000 RPM and go .

most problems always seem to happen with the small trailers that you forgot you were towing often when they were empty they might clip gate posts on corners exiting farm yards or posts on pub s car parks (back in the days when there was no bag to turn green )

However the modern cars are now built so close to limits compared to the old things there are other factors to take into account .A petrol engine giving 120 BHP creates a lot of heat and the modern cooling is often not up to it .
The suspension are ore often not so robust as the 1970,s cars so easy to blow the shocks and springs .

In terms of what to tow most modern cars if they get more than 20% of their unladen weight will probably create more costly repair work later so cheaper to hire a bigger better Van and let the van rental company pick up the cost downstream .

if you do tow heavy stay in low gears keep RPM high 4000 to 6000 and you will probably have less problems as long as its flat and you keep speeds slow like less than 50MPH .Keep the weight on the tow hook less than 70KG and keep it correctly balanced so that there is no fish tailing. Heavy weights in the middle help mostly and heavy weight in the tail end will cause severe fish tailing .

I always prefer to call out suitable larger car eg pay someone to move my heavy stuff and run small cars as it it not clever to run a big car all year for the occasional tow job I might do

Caravans forget it tents are cheap and light .
If you really want to tow heavy gear and keep a car then buy a old big Merc with 3000cc diesel engine or 2.8 petrol.Those are the cars my mates farm use to tow all the heavy stuff often close to 2000KG so might be bit more than the legal rules but its hard to judge how much the cows or horses or bales of hay weigh . It is mostly country roads so your not gonna drive that fast anyway

Jed

28-04-2015 10:57pm

CiniO wrote: »

...........and at 6000rpm you are perfectly fine to climb the incline. All the time at 50mph.

Where can you see the problem with all that?

High rpm should be used when required for strong acceleration or high speed. If high rpm is required to tow 1700kg and the car is being bought with towing in mind the car isn't suitable.

If high rpm in second gear is required as described above the car is very limited, what if there is a slower moving vehicle ahead and it is a single carraigeway and you need to slow to 35mph?

dgt · 28-04-2015 11:09pm

I don't agree with small engines for towing big weight. This is speaking as someone who towed a 2.5 tonne van with a 1.2 Bravo.

Whilst it felt normal on flat ground, hills up or down caused problems. 2nd gear and high rpm to get up gentle inclines. No engine brake. Engine under stress and hard labour constantly. Cooling suffering. Clutch suffering. Brakes faded. During that tow we had to stop a few times to let the car rest.

To suggest towing such weight with a small engine as the normal isn't showing mechanical sympathy.

The van we use may only have 85bhp but is well capable of towing comfortably. Weight doesn't really bother its performance.

CiniO · 28-04-2015 11:12pm

Augeo wrote: »

High rpm should be used when required for strong acceleration or high speed. If high rpm is required to tow 1700kg and the car is being bought with towing in mind the car isn't suitable.

If high rpm in second gear is required as described above the car is very limited, what if there is a slower moving vehicle ahead and it is a single carraigeway and you need to slow to 35mph?

If car is able to go 50mph at 6000rpm on 2nd gear towing, then obviously it's even more able to do 25mph at 3000rpm on 2nd gear.

CiniO · 28-04-2015 11:14pm

dgt wrote: »

I don't agree with small engines for towing big weight. This is speaking as someone who towed a 2.5 tonne van with a 1.2 Bravo.

Whilst it felt normal on flat ground, hills up or down caused problems. 2nd gear and high rpm to get up gentle inclines. No engine brake. Engine under stress and hard labour constantly. Cooling suffering. Clutch suffering. Brakes faded. During that tow we had to stop a few times to let the car rest.

To suggest towing such weight with a small engine as the normal isn't showing mechanical sympathy.

The van we use may only have 85bhp but is well capable of towing comfortably. Weight doesn't really bother its performance.

But Bravo is only designed to tow 1000kg at most or even less.
You are saying you towed 2500kg so 2.5 times the limit.
We are talking about towing 1700kg with Golf which is designed to tow 1700kg.

dgt · 28-04-2015 11:20pm

CiniO wrote: »

But Bravo is only designed to tow 1000kg at most or even less.
You are saying you towed 2500kg so 2.5 times the limit.
We are talking about towing 1700kg with Golf which is designed to tow 1700kg.

Can you say you'd be happy towing over 1.5 tonnes with a 1.4 car? Say across a mountain? Even if it is rated fot that?

28-04-2015 11:28pm

CiniO wrote: »

If car is able to go 50mph at 6000rpm on 2nd gear towing, then obviously it's even more able to do 25mph at 3000rpm on 2nd gear.

so the same power is produced at 3000rpm and 6000rpm in the same gear?
ok

CiniO · 28-04-2015 11:33pm

Augeo wrote: »

so the same power is produced at 3000rpm and 6000rpm in the same gear?
ok

No.
Power at 3000rpm will be lower, but torque at 3000rpm most likely will be higher.
It's the torque which represents pulling force so the higher the torque, the better ability to tow.

CiniO · 28-04-2015 11:36pm

dgt wrote: »

Can you say you'd be happy towing over 1.5 tonnes with a 1.4 car? Say across a mountain? Even if it is rated fot that?

1.4 means nothing.
Could be 50bhp 1.4 same as 150bhp 1.4

dgt · 28-04-2015 11:42pm

CiniO wrote: »

1.4 means nothing.
Could be 50bhp 1.4 same as 150bhp 1.4

It doesn't matter if it means nothing it didn't answer my question.

Would you be comfortable towing up a mountain with a 1.4 car if it was rated for it? Ie the golf in question?

CiniO · 28-04-2015 11:48pm

dgt wrote: »

It doesn't matter if it means nothing it didn't answer my question.

Would you be comfortable towing up a mountain with a 1.4 car if it was rated for it? Ie the golf in question?

Yes, I would be.
Golf in question with over 120 bhp would be perfectly suitable for towing 1700kg.
I've towed about 1400kg with 140bhp civic and had no problems. There was plenty of power to spare. Surely 1700kg with 120bhp would still be plenty.

28-04-2015 11:49pm

CiniO wrote: »

No.
Power at 3000rpm will be lower, but torque at 3000rpm most likely will be higher.
It's the torque which represents pulling force so the higher the torque, the better ability to tow.

Two posts ago you described struggling at 3700rpm neccesitating the change to 2nd for 6000rpm did you not?

Now 3000rpm is fine.

dgt · 28-04-2015 11:52pm

CiniO wrote: »

Yes, I would be.
Golf in question with over 120 bhp would be perfectly suitable for towing 1700kg.
I've towed about 1400kg with 140bhp civic and had no problems. There was plenty of power to spare. Surely 1700kg with 120bhp would still be plenty.

I'm sure you misinterpreted me the first time but either way thats my question sort of answered

Best car for towing using a B licence

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