Best car for towing using a B licence

BrianD3

Somebody previously posted in this forum that the rules for towing on a B licence have changed - the requirement for DGVW of the trailer to be no more than the unladen weight of the towcar has apparently been removed. If that is the case, it makes staying legal significantly easier.

Just looking at a few tow cars there and the best one I found (in terms of weights for a B licence) is the VW Golf 1.4 TSi 122 DSG.

Unladen weight 1249 kg
DGVW 1750 kg
Braked towing weight 1700 kg

As 1750 + 1700 is less than 3500, this means that a driver with a B licence can tow a 1700 kg DGVW trailer.

Anyone got any thoughts?

Supergurrier

Torque is what you want

CiniO

BrianD3 wrote: »

Somebody previously posted in this forum that the rules for towing on a B licence have changed - the requirement for DGVW of the trailer to be no more than the unladen weight of the towcar has apparently been removed. If that is the case, it makes staying legal significantly easier.

Just looking at a few tow cars there and the best one I found (in terms of weights for a B licence) is the VW Golf 1.4 TSi 122 DSG.

Unladen weight 1249 kg
DGVW 1750 kg
Braked towing weight 1700 kg

As 1750 + 1700 is less than 3500, this means that a driver with a B licence can tow a 1700 kg DGVW trailer.

Anyone got any thoughts?

Looks great...

unkel

That's good to know Brian, thanks for posting. Have you any link showing the old requirement was removed? It must be an EU wide thing too, surely?

Eric Cartman

diesel for towing , and if your going to tow a trailer thats 1700kg by christ it would want to be something 4wd and powerful. Id barely trust a golf to tow a 1.2x1.2 750kg trailer.

BrianD3

unkel wrote: »

That's good to know Brian, thanks for posting. Have you any link showing the old requirement was removed? It must be an EU wide thing too, surely?

I don't have a link - it was Cinio who posted about this originally so hopefully he can post something that proves it.

In terms of car transporters for use with a B licence, the ones I've found with the highest capacity and the lowest unladen weight are Woodford trailers lightweight range, see attached pdf. Brian James and Ifor Williams transporters are a bit less favourable in terms of unladen weight/capacity

Flood

I would be carrying around spare underwear pulling that weight.

CJhaughey

1.4 150hp DSG is rated by VW as 1500 braked and 630 unbraked, I cannot imagine the 122 hp version is rated for 1700.
In any case recommended maximum towing weights by the caravan club is to tow at max 85% of recommended capacity.

Jesus.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Anyone got any thoughts?

Yep. Enjoy the clutch in the 1.4 while it lasts

CiniO

unkel wrote: »

That's good to know Brian, thanks for posting. Have you any link showing the old requirement was removed? It must be an EU wide thing too, surely?

I was trying to find the appropriate law, and I actually discovered something very interesting and quite funny.

So indeed as you say these were EU wide regulations.
In short they removed a condition of trailer D.G.V.W being not greater than vehicle unladen weight to be able to tow with B licence. Beforehand case presented by OP would not be legal, as trailer D.G.V.W of 1700kg would be greater than golf's unladen weight of 1249kg.
These EU regulations removed that condition, so now it's legal.
Also those regulations introduced possibility of adding code 96 to your B licence, which would allow to tow a set of total D.G.V.W of 4250kg (so f.e. car with D.G.V.W 2000kg with towing capacity of 2250kg could tow a trailer with D.G.V.W 2250 legally on B licence provided code 96 was added.

Hope this is all clear.

Now have a look at legislation that introduced it:

B

Vehicles (other than motorcycles, mopeds, work vehicles or land tractors) having a design gross vehicle weight not exceeding 3,500 kg, having passenger accommodation for not more than 8 persons and where the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer is not greater than 750 kg.

A licence with code 106 permits the combination of drawing vehicle and trailer where the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer may exceed 750 kg and where the design gross vehicle weight of the drawing vehicle and trailer combined does not exceed 4,250 kg.

and

“7.(1) A combination of vehicles which consists of a drawing vehicle and a trailer shall, for the purpose of these Regulations, be regarded as a vehicle—
(a) in category B, where the drawing vehicle is in category B and—

(i) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg, or

(ii) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer exceeds 750 kg but where the design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 4,250 kg,

All would be great, if not the fact that they fecked up as this is not correct.
According to this regulation, you can drive a a set (vehicle + trailer) of D.G.V.W 4250 when you have a code 106 on your licence, and according to second bit you can drive one without code 106.

Pity that EU law is as I mentioned above, so normally it's 3500kg limit, and with code 96 (not 106) it's 4250kg.

Here are the regulations:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0483.html

Luckily they quickly realised their mistake, and only 2 years later, they issued a law amendment

(c) in Regulation 6 (inserted by Regulation 2(b) of the Regulations of 2011) by substituting in column (2) of the Table opposite B in column (1)—

(i) in the first paragraph for “750 kg” the following:

“750 kg, or, where the combined design gross vehicle weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer does not exceed 3,500 kg.”, and

(ii) in the second paragraph for “code 106” the following:

“code 96”,

(d) in Regulation 7(1)(a) (inserted by Regulation 2(c) of the Regulations of 2011) by substituting for paragraph (i) and (ii) the following:

“(i) the design gross weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg,

(ii) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer exceeds 750 kg but where the design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 3,500 kg,

Which actually makes the initial regulation from 2011 in line with EU law.

CiniO

Eric Cartman wrote: »

diesel for towing ,

Why would that be the case?
You can achieve the same torque on driving wheels with petrol engine. All you need is just bit higher engine revs.

and if your going to tow a trailer thats 1700kg by christ it would want to be something 4wd

Why 4wd?
In normal conditions it makes no difference if only 2 wheels or 4 wheels are driving... It could make a difference on soft surface like gravel, sand, snow, etc...

and powerful. Id barely trust a golf to tow a 1.2x1.2 750kg trailer.

Surely 122hp is well more than enough to tow 1700kg trailer.

Jesus.

CiniO wrote: »

Surely 122hp is well more than enough to tow 1700kg trailer.

You'd have to rag the sh1t out of it

BrianD3

1.4 150hp DSG is rated by VW as 1500 braked and 630 unbraked, I cannot imagine the 122 hp version is rated for 1700.

CiniO

Jesus. wrote: »

You'd have to rag the sh1t out of it

That's what engines are for - 6000rpm and off you go.

Jesus.

Good Lord!

Cinio, what you want is a good Torquey diesel with some low down grunt.

CiniO

Jesus. wrote: »

Good Lord!

Cinio, what you want is a good Torquey diesel with some low down grunt.

Your torquey diesel on it's peak of 2500 rpm will provide same or even lower torque on driving wheels than small petrol at 6000rpm.

Flood

CiniO wrote: »

Surely 122hp is well more than enough to tow 1700kg trailer.

In relation to the golf the answer would be no.

CiniO

Flood wrote: »

In relation to the golf the answer would be no.

Come on... nonsense.

Some older buses with D.G.V.W of 18,000kg don't have more than 122bhp and manage quite well.

Jesus.

CiniO wrote: »

Your torquey diesel on it's peak of 2500 rpm will provide same or even lower torque on driving wheels than small petrol at 6000rpm.

C'mon Cinio, you're bullsh1tting again. What you say might be technically true but that doesn't make the car as good an option for towing. Can you imagine driving the damn thing at 6k the whole time? What about hill starts? You'd have the whole street staring at you.

And I don't care what anyone says, you're putting the engine under a lot more stress than if you had a similar diesel

Jesus.

RE Brian's graph, how is the 1.4 rated at a higher weight than the 2.0 with over a hundred more horsepower?

Flood

CiniO wrote: »

Come on... nonsense.

Will you think about it for a minute, a 1.4 golf towing 1700kg. Does that really sound practical?

CiniO

Flood wrote: »

Will you think about it for a minute, a 1.4 golf towing 1700kg. Does that really sound practical?

It does.

This 1.4 golf had 122hp and 200Nm max torque.
It's quite a plenty and as I said way more than needed to tow 1700kg.

Look at the power chart of buses and trucks which are 10 to 25 times heavier than your golf's trailer.

Mycroft H

The 1.4 TSI golf has as much torque and and more power than the AHU 1.9TDI fitted to the passat. I cant see it being a problem

Odyssey 2005

Lads th golf would be able to tow the trailer (with a little difficulty) but surely the more important question is, would the golf be able to STOP the fookin thing safely in an emergency situation?. For my money that answer is no.

There's a you tube video of a little Renault towing a large caravan uo mountain by some cyclists,and then coming back backwards:eek:. Perhaps some tech savy person could link it here.

9935452

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Lads th golf would be able to tow the trailer (with a little difficulty) but surely the more important question is, would the golf be able to STOP the fookin thing safely in an emergency situation?. For my money that answer is no.

There's a you tube video of a little Renault towing a large caravan uo mountain by some cyclists,and then coming back backwards:eek:. Perhaps some tech savy person could link it here.

My answer to that is yes and no. Technically you would be pulling a braked trailer. With a good setup on the brakes the trailer will stop itself.

In reality the brakes may or may not be working correctly, If not working, the car will struggle to stop the trailer.

If you were pulling 1700kgs with a golf, if you had any sense you would keep your speed down .

Another thing not mentioned here is if you want to pull that weight you want to make sure the drawbar is rated to pull that weight, you could be in trouble if it broke

Odyssey 2005

If you were pulling 1700kgs with a golf, if you had any sense you would keep your speed dow

If you had any sense you wouldn't even try it. Too many variables to go wrong.

CJhaughey

Jesus. wrote: »

RE Brian's graph, how is the 1.4 rated at a higher weight than the 2.0 with over a hundred more horsepower?

I'd hazard a guess that it must be some kind of Typo.
The same car same weight and the 122 TSI is a kind of outlier in that series.
Look at the braked weights between Manual and DSG, all the same throughout that chart, look at unbraked weights every DSG has a 10kg increase, how in the hell does the max braked weight of the manual be 300kg less than a DSG?, thats the weight of a trailer.
It makes no sense and I wouldn't trust that information.
Check with VW directly before you go looking for that car to tow a 1700kg trailer, likely the disclaimer at the bottom of the page will absolve them.

9935452

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

If you were pulling 1700kgs with a golf, if you had any sense you would keep your speed dow

If you had any sense you wouldn't even try it. Too many variables to go wrong.

I wouldnt do it to my car and i had a golf , it would wreck a car, but some people dont think the same, This is where this thread came from.

Original point was good trailer brakes will stop that weight which is a requirement for pulling a trailer of that weight by a golf

The response to that will more than likely , a lot of trailer brakes dont work or work properly. in that case if you have an accident you could have insurance issues.

BrianD3

In any case the Golf Mk7 1.6 TDi and 2.0 TDi can tow 1500 kg and 1600 kg respectively - and the DGVWs of the cars is such that all of this towing capacity can be used without going over 3500 kg.

I posted a brochure from Woodford trailers earlier - a car transporter with DGVW of 1600 kg has a cargo capacity of 1200 kg.

The next size up has a 2000 kg DGVW and a 1500 kg capacity - so even if was downplated to 1700 kg, the capacity would be the same. So for towing a Woodford car transporter, the 1.4 TSi Golf with its (possibly incorrect) towing figure of 1700 kg doesn't really give any advantage over the 2.0 TDi with its towing figure of 1600 kg.

mullingar

BrianD3 wrote: »

In any case the Golf Mk7 1.6 TDi and 2.0 TDi can tow 1500 kg and 1600 kg respectively - and the DGVWs of the cars is such that all of this towing capacity can be used without going over 3500 kg.

I posted a brochure from Woodford trailers earlier - a car transporter with DGVW of 1600 kg has a cargo capacity of 1200 kg.

The next size up has a 2000 kg DGVW and a 1500 kg capacity - so even if was downplated to 1700 kg, the capacity would be the same. So for towing a Woodford car transporter, the 1.4 TSi Golf with its (possibly incorrect) towing figure of 1700 kg doesn't really give any advantage over the 2.0 TDi with its towing figure of 1600 kg.

Your sums are a little wrong if you want to use a 1700kg rated towing car to tow a laden transporter..

If you subtract the DGVW from the cargo rating it will give the unladen trailer weight = 500kg, this will only allow you to tow a car maximum 1,200 kg (1,700-500). The lightest new Golf, the 1.2TSI weighs 1,205kg, so technically you cant even tow that.


My 2WD petrol is plated to 2000kg :cool:

BrianD3

mullingar wrote: »

Your sums are a little wrong if you want to use a 1700kg rated towing car to tow a laden transporter..

If you subtract the DGVW from the cargo rating it will give the unladen trailer weight = 500kg, this will only allow you to tow a car maximum 1,200 kg (1,700-500).

Yeah that's what I meant
2000 kg transporter (500 kg unladen) downplated to 1700 kg = 1200 kg max cargo.
1600 kg transporter (400 kg unladen) = 1200 kg max cargo.
Therefore the same.

If the 2000 kg DGVW transporter is downplated to 1800 kg DGVW then the max cargo is 1300 kg but 1800 kg DGVW exceeds the towing capacity of the car we were talking about.

Flood

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

There's a you tube video of a little Renault towing a large caravan uo mountain by some cyclists,and then coming back backwards:eek:. Perhaps some tech savy person could link it here.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

That's what engines are for - 6000rpm and off you go.

Can't imagine any sane person thinking that's appropriate.

Pov06

Augeo wrote: »

Can't imagine any sane person thinking that's appropriate.

Can't imagine your average driver understanding anything about car engines either, but there you go.

Pov06

Pov06 wrote: »

Can't imagine your average driver understanding anything about car engines either, but there you go.

Most understand enough to know that reving the engine to 6000rpm in order to tow isn't the done thing.

Pov06

Augeo wrote: »

Most understand enough to know that reving the engine to 6000rpm in order to tow isn't the done thing.

Welcome to CVT gearboxes.

CiniO

Augeo wrote: »

Most understand enough to know that reving the engine to 6000rpm in order to tow isn't the done thing.

Nothing wrong with revving to 6000rpm.
Engines are designed to work without any problems at that revs.

Mycroft H

Agree with CiniO here. VW says it's fine to tow the limit with a braked trailer. Can't argue with the facts here. VW, I'm sure, know their own products. Why would they say it's fine to tow up to a limit when it's not. Probably the same people who still think you can only tow a twin axle with a 4x4.

VW says it produces 200nm of torque between 1400 to 4000rpm. That's plenty of low down torque. The 1.6 diesel produces 230nm between 1400 and 2300rpm. Near enough the same but with a narrower band.

Flood

The 12% incline would want to be religiously obeyed if one has any chance.

Pov06

Pov06 wrote: »

.............
Welcome to CVT gearboxes.

Hardly relevent to someone reckoning it's perfectly fine to get a car (golf iirc) revving to 6000rpm in order to tow.

CVT gearboxes are nothing new btw

CiniO

Augeo wrote: »

Hardly relevent to someone reckoning it's perfectly fine to get a car (golf iirc) revving to 6000rpm in order to tow.

CVT gearboxes are nothing new btw

Most petrol engines reach their maximum power at around that range of 6000rpm.
If that's the case what you're suggesting that this particular engine is not powerful enough to tow heavy trailer, then in order to use maximum power this engine provides, its best to rev it to 6000

Pov06

Augeo wrote: »

Hardly relevent to someone reckoning it's perfectly fine to get a car (golf iirc) revving to 6000rpm in order to tow.

CVT gearboxes are nothing new btw

Well if it's perfectly acceptable to run the engine at 6000 RPM with a CVT gearbox to get the most power then there is nothing wrong with running any engine at 6000 RPM (as long as it is below the rev limiter).

Nobody said CVT gearboxes are new, clearly you have a similar mindset of most people who think revving their car past 3000 RPM is going to make the world explode.

Mycroft H

I've to rev the Jimny to 6000 if I need to overtake quickly, never mind with a trailer. Car hasn't exploded yet.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

....

Surely 122hp is well more than enough to tow 1700kg trailer.

Jesus. wrote: »

You'd have to rag the sh1t out of it

CiniO wrote: »

That's what engines are for - 6000rpm and off you go.

CiniO wrote: »

Most petrol engines reach their maximum power at around that range of 6000rpm.
If that's the case what you're suggesting that this particular engine is not powerful enough to tow heavy trailer, then in order to use maximum power this engine provides, its best to rev it to 6000

No cinio, it was you who suggested revving this engine to 6000rpm and off you go.... In 2nd it'd be at over 50mph and in 1st almost 30.

Lunacy.

Pov06

Pov06 wrote: »

Well if it's perfectly acceptable to run the engine at 6000 RPM with a CVT gearbox to get the most power then there is nothing wrong with running any engine at 6000 RPM (as long as it is below the rev limiter).

Nobody said CVT gearboxes are new, clearly you have a similar mindset of most people who think revving their car past 3000 RPM is going to make the world explode.

Mycroft H wrote: »

I've to rev the Jimny to 6000 if I need to overtake quickly, never mind with a trailer. Car hasn't exploded yet.

I'm wondering are ye semi illiterate, slow or trolling...

Mycroft H

not sure what your getting at here.....

CiniO

Augeo wrote: »

No cinio, it was you who suggested revving this engine to 6000rpm and off you go....

Let's have a look again:

CiniO:
If that's the case what you're suggesting that this particular engine is not powerful enough to tow heavy trailer, then in order to use maximum power this engine provides, its best to rev it to 6000

Augeo:
No cinio, it was you who suggested revving this engine to 6000rpm and off you go

Either there's something majorly wrong with my perception, or you just didn't bother reading what I said.

In 2nd it'd be at over 50mph and in 1st almost 30.

Lunacy.

That's possible.
So let's say you want to drive 50mph with a trailer.
In 5th at 2000rpm your engine is struggling, so you reduce down to 4th - revs rise to 2800rpm and engine is still struggling. So you reduce further to 3rd and now at 3700rpm engine is running fine without struggle.
However you are reaching an incline, and engine again starts to struggle up the hill at 3700rpm, so then you reduce to 2nd, and at 6000rpm you are perfectly fine to climb the incline. All the time at 50mph.

Where can you see the problem with all that?

Flood

CiniO wrote: »

So let's say you want to drive 50mph with a trailer.
In 5th at 2000rpm your engine is struggling, so you reduce down to 4th - revs rise to 2800rpm and engine is still struggling. So you reduce further to 3rd and now at 3700rpm engine is running fine without struggle.
However you are reaching an incline, and engine again starts to struggle up the hill at 3700rpm, so then you reduce to 2nd, and at 6000rpm you are perfectly fine to climb the incline. All the time at 50mph.

Where can you see the problem with all that?

One problem I see is the dmf and clutch blowing its balls within a very short space of time. A vw golf pulling 1700kg with that proposed driving style also potentially has other issues.
You would be putting fair pressure on the cooling system also.

browniepoints

In the old days we would tow with 1600 petrol engines two tons no sweat and that was only 75BHP engines. That could be trailers with cows horse the caravans the farm trailers with hay the lot.

As long as the trailer was braked type and if it was wet you drove extra slow no major issues.

it was simple plenty of wellie 6000 RPM and go .

most problems always seem to happen with the small trailers that you forgot you were towing often when they were empty they might clip gate posts on corners exiting farm yards or posts on pub s car parks (back in the days when there was no bag to turn green )

However the modern cars are now built so close to limits compared to the old things there are other factors to take into account .A petrol engine giving 120 BHP creates a lot of heat and the modern cooling is often not up to it .
The suspension are ore often not so robust as the 1970,s cars so easy to blow the shocks and springs .

In terms of what to tow most modern cars if they get more than 20% of their unladen weight will probably create more costly repair work later so cheaper to hire a bigger better Van and let the van rental company pick up the cost downstream .

if you do tow heavy stay in low gears keep RPM high 4000 to 6000 and you will probably have less problems as long as its flat and you keep speeds slow like less than 50MPH .Keep the weight on the tow hook less than 70KG and keep it correctly balanced so that there is no fish tailing. Heavy weights in the middle help mostly and heavy weight in the tail end will cause severe fish tailing .

I always prefer to call out suitable larger car eg pay someone to move my heavy stuff and run small cars as it it not clever to run a big car all year for the occasional tow job I might do

Caravans forget it tents are cheap and light .
If you really want to tow heavy gear and keep a car then buy a old big Merc with 3000cc diesel engine or 2.8 petrol.Those are the cars my mates farm use to tow all the heavy stuff often close to 2000KG so might be bit more than the legal rules but its hard to judge how much the cows or horses or bales of hay weigh . It is mostly country roads so your not gonna drive that fast anyway

Jed

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

...........and at 6000rpm you are perfectly fine to climb the incline. All the time at 50mph.

Where can you see the problem with all that?

High rpm should be used when required for strong acceleration or high speed. If high rpm is required to tow 1700kg and the car is being bought with towing in mind the car isn't suitable.

If high rpm in second gear is required as described above the car is very limited, what if there is a slower moving vehicle ahead and it is a single carraigeway and you need to slow to 35mph?

dgt

I don't agree with small engines for towing big weight. This is speaking as someone who towed a 2.5 tonne van with a 1.2 Bravo.

Whilst it felt normal on flat ground, hills up or down caused problems. 2nd gear and high rpm to get up gentle inclines. No engine brake. Engine under stress and hard labour constantly. Cooling suffering. Clutch suffering. Brakes faded. During that tow we had to stop a few times to let the car rest.

To suggest towing such weight with a small engine as the normal isn't showing mechanical sympathy.

The van we use may only have 85bhp but is well capable of towing comfortably. Weight doesn't really bother its performance.