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IBRC Sale of Siteserv at €100 million loss.

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    Beacon hospital too.

    Interestingly, that's a private hospital.

    Even more interesting is FG have plans to try and introduce mandatory, compulsory private health care.


    Handy.

    Wasn't Biffo also made a director there too?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    rrpc wrote: »
    I thought that was to be universal health insurance and the elimination of the two tier private/public system?

    Does that contradict anything I posted?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Does that contradict anything I posted?

    Yes. There will be no private healthcare, it will all be public.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    rrpc wrote: »
    Yes. There will be no private healthcare, it will all be public.

    Or private depending on how you look at it.

    Regardless, it will be compulsory and mandatory if FG get their way.

    Like I said, fierce handy and coincidental that uncle Dennis recently acquired the Beacon with 50% write down.

    I wonder will he be leaning on Leo to ram the mandatory, compulsory insurance through.....

    Never I hear you say.

    Never.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Or private depending on how you look at it.
    Nope. If it's open to all, then by definition it's public.
    Regardless, it will be compulsory and mandatory if FG get their way.

    Like I said, fierce handy and coincidental that uncle Dennis recently acquired the Beacon with 50% write down.

    I wonder will he be leaning on Leo to ram the mandatory, compulsory insurance through.....

    Never I hear you say.

    Never.
    The insurance is set to be mandatory, yes. However, this is not news. It was announced over a year ago, so Denis was a bit slow by his standards ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Looks like insider trading.


    Why the sudden spike in shares being traded to a company effectively bankrupt?

    It's like someone knew a massive state contract was in the pipeline.
    SHARE activity in Siteserv plc, the company at the centre of a political row, surged in the month before state-owned bank IBRC received the first bids for the firm in a confidential sale process.

    A Sunday Times analysis has found a sharp increase in the number of shares traded in November 2011, days before the first bids were received for the company. A total of 6.4m shares changed hands that month. Just 121,000 shares had been traded a month earlier, while between January and October 2011, the total volume of shares traded was 4.76m.

    The closing share price in November fluctuated between 3.5c and 2c. When Siteserv was sold in March 2012 the shareholders received a payout of €5m and the shares were valued at 3.9c each. This was a premium of 292% on the share price on January 13, 2012, the last day before the announcement to the stock
    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/News/article1549036.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_04_25

    Throw in the five million, under the counter sweetener, and you pretty much have an undeniably fishy tale.

    This one ain't going away. Fair play to Catherine Murphy, she'll get a vote from the Banjo household now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    rrpc wrote: »
    Nope. If it's open to all, then by definition it's public.

    Open to all with a paid up insurance plan. Will all private hospitals then become public by default if this plan goes through?
    The insurance is set to be mandatory, yes. However, this is not news. It was announced over a year ago, so Denis was a bit slow by his standards ;)


    2nd of April 2014 is when this was starting to become news.
    MINISTER JAMES REILLY today unveiled his ambitious plan for Universal Health Insurance in Ireland which will mean every man, woman and child will have health insurance – subsidised by the State.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/universal-health-insurance-cost-1394248-Apr2014/


    Then less than a week later on April 7th.....
    Businessman Denis O' Brien is taking over the 214-bed Beacon Private Hospital in Sandyford in Dublin from next Monday.
    http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/businessman-denis-obrien-takes-control-of-beacon-hospital-30163314.html

    So if by slow you mean 5/6 days later, fair enough.

    Nothing to see here, all a big coincidence so tis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Looks like insider trading.


    Why the sudden spike in shares being traded to a company effectively bankrupt?

    It's like someone knew a massive state contract was in the pipeline.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/News/article1549036.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_04_25

    Throw in the five million, under the counter sweetener, and you pretty much have an undeniably fishy tale.

    This one ain't going away. Fair play to Catherine Murphy, she'll get a vote from the Banjo household now.
    Doesn't sound at all strange to me tbh. Shares prices typically rise and trading explodes before possible buyouts and takeovers because it shows confidence in the ability of the company to turn a profit and ultimately result in payouts for shareholders.
    A DOB buyout would probably be seen as a safe bet for flipping the shares afterwards for a quick profit.

    If you're really into seeing corruption exposed at the top end of business, the claims from the DPP that INMs leak of the Anglo tapes was a deliberate attempt to subvert a criminal trial, will likely prove far juicier. The SiteServ deal is looking more and more above board as information comes out imho.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Looks like insider trading.


    Why the sudden spike in shares being traded to a company effectively bankrupt?

    It's like someone knew a massive state contract was in the pipeline.

    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/News/article1549036.ece?CMP=OTH-gnws-standard-2015_04_25

    Throw in the five million, under the counter sweetener, and you pretty much have an undeniably fishy tale.
    You can't put a company up for sale and not have people know about it. The stock market runs on rumours and that one would have been juicy.

    Being bankrupt seems to have no relationship with share price. Look at the value of AIB shares right now. On the basis of their valuation, AIB is supposedly worth almost 50 billion. It is in its hole!

    The 'massive state contract' was of absolutely no value to the shareholders since they sold out lock, stock and barrel in April.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Open to all with a paid up insurance plan. Will all private hospitals then become public by default if this plan goes through?
    What else could they be? If everyone is on UHI where would they get their patients?
    2nd of April 2014 is when this was starting to become news.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/universal-health-insurance-cost-1394248-Apr2014/
    The Journal is a bit slow...
    The Independent 8th February
    The Irish Times 21st February

    So it would have been about two months later. A lot quicker than I thought, but you did say 'recently'. ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote: »
    To paraphrase a SF sympathiser, in which court was he found guilty, and on what grounds?

    We cannot have a situation where it can blandly be stated that someone was found guilty of fraud when they were not yet i.e. a complete lie and on the other hand we cannot reach reasonable conclusions about the cover-up of the abuse of Aine Adams by her uncle Gerry even though he hasn't been convicted of anything either.

    If someone says I believe Denis O'Brien is corrupt based on what the Moriarty Tribunal found, well that is fair enough but to blandly post that he was "found guilty of fraud" is a complete and utter lie and probably defamatory.

    How about "he was found to have engaged in corrupt activities by the tribunal"? That states the situation exactly as it is and IMO is just as bad for him as saying he was found guilty of fraud. The only difference between the two is that a court of law could have actually punished him for it, while the tribunals were deliberately created with absolutely no teeth.
    Wikipedia wrote:
    Lowry "secured the winning" of the 1995 mobile licence for O'Brien.
    O'Brien made two payments to Lowry in 1996 and 1999 totalling IR£500,000 (GB£147,000 and GB£300,000) and supported a loan of GB£420,000 given to Lowry in 1999, a benefit equivalent to a payment.
    Lowry imparted substantive information to O'Brien which was "of significant value and assistance to him in securing the licence".
    Lowry bypassed consideration by his Cabinet colleagues and thereby not only influenced, but delivered the result for Esat Digifone.
    A US$50,000 donation to Fine Gael was made through Telenor on behalf of Esat Digifone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    rrpc wrote: »
    You can't put a company up for sale and not have people know about it. The stock market runs on rumours and that one would have been juicy.

    The Irish public like good rumours also, and this one's as juicy as.
    Being bankrupt seems to have no relationship with share price. Look at the value of AIB shares right now. On the basis of their valuation, AIB is supposedly worth almost 50 billion. It is in its hole!
    Agreed.
    The 'massive state contract' was of absolutely no value to the shareholders since they sold out lock, stock and barrel in April.

    Well, firstly the payout looks like a bribe to encourage them to give the gig over to Millington, how could you interpret that I meant otherwise tbh?

    Secondly, didn't the CEO get a lump sum of €800,000 and stay on in his post.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Well, firstly the payout looks like a bribe to encourage them to give the gig over to Millington, how could you interpret that I meant otherwise tbh?
    This has been covered extensively on this very thread. Shareholders had an effective veto on any sale. The company structure was such that it would have been almost impossible to sell it without their approval. If it's being used as a stick to beat the shareholders with then in that case why didn't they go for the higher offer of almost double that amount from Altrad when they came late to the party?
    Secondly, didn't the CEO get a lump sum of €800,000 and stay on in his post.
    I don't know about the €800k, but the CEO of SiteServ came from Dell shortly after the sale.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    fliuch wrote:
    Have a good look at the list of directors and the other positions they hold on the boards of water companies, solicitors, stock brokers and banks to name but a few. Quite a few conflicts of interest we think.
    Chap needs to read what he's posting.

    He might have had a point to make if he'd actually noticed that they were positions held in the past and not held currently. A great many of them were over 10 years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Anyone catch the article the Indo had on siteserv earlier?

    Quick Google search throws up this. http://i.imgur.com/1w3fDmE.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1w3fDmE.jpg

    But the link is a 404 error. http://i.imgur.com/fw1gP9B.jpg

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/siteserv-timeline-of-a-controversy-31171755.html


    Wondering what it contained, and who decided to pull it off the site.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,966 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    rrpc wrote: »
    I'd need to see a balance sheet from that period to really analyse it properly. We're discussing this in the context of a company that said they were going to run out of cash by the end of May 2012 (roughly).

    What a balance sheet would tell us is if borrowings had increased: They had an overdraft facility for ten million; had they run that up to the limit? They had an increase in trade creditors of 40% in the previous year; had that gone up again? They'd got an interest only deal until December 2012; were they going to be in a position to start repaying capital again? For example
    in 2011 they borrowed more than they repaid (by 1.6 million) and in 2010 they repaid about three million.

    I don't have the answer to those questions, but the profit figure has to be looked at in that context. All I can see from those reports is that although profits rose for the half year by 600k, it was on the back of sales increasing by €9 million. Their cost of sales seems to be very high and additional revenues seemed to come at a very high additional cost.

    If the profit was to carry forward for the full year, then you could say that they would have generated another €1.2 million in profits and assuming that's a full cash benefit they are still woefully short of any capital repayment schedule that would have to be recommenced.

    They just didn't seem to be generating enough cash to pay back their borrowings at any kind of meaningful level. The reports at the time of the sale say that they owed IBRC 150 million. I don't know if that's exact or rounded but if exact, it's an increase of 3 million on the borrowing figure in their 2011 accounts.

    The issue of repaying capital is moot, it was pushed out until the 1st of Jan 2013. It is not relevant to Siteservs ability to trade in the time frame we are discussing.

    I think though at this stage given the information we actually know, it is quite reasonable to assume that Siteserv at the very least could have traded until year end, probably quite comfortably and in all likely hood in profit. The unverified assertion that it only had 8 weeks left before oblivion, is in my opinion at best an over exaggeration and in truth probably BS. There is no way they would have tied themselves into exclusivity negotiations with one buyer if things were so perilous, was it 50 separate bids whittled down to 8? Siteserv was very very popular. It was actually extremely popular with it's clients too, even with the looming possibility of liquidation, the contracts kept rolling in, especially from state and semi state bodies.

    TBF, why wouldn't it be popular. For a finish, one State Owned Bank wrote off the bulk of it's debt with effectively the remaining debt being transferred to our other State Owned Bank, AIB. Like a car wash it comes out the other side, nice portfolio, profitable, with a nice serviceable debt ratio. Jackpot.

    I mean if Carlsberg did buyouts of "distressed companies".

    I repeat what I said earlier, there was a rush to sell it, not for the reason given, but other factors, timing appears to be everything with Siteserv, impeccable.

    I assume the next tender process by Irish Water will be the repair contracts for pipes, I wonder will Siteservs luck hold? The little company that Just Could! ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Joan Burton calling for unedited/censored details of the share activity in the months before its sale now too.

    I can't see how Noonan or Kenny could dismiss her tbh,.

    Micheál Martin all over it now too, this story is only in its infancy.
    Tánaiste Joan Burton has told RTÉ News she wants to see all the relevant information about Siteserv be made available and published. 

    Ms Burton was responding to a question as to whether there should be an investigation into an allegation of increased trading in construction firm Siteserv shares, prior to its sale by IBRC.

    The Tánaiste said the Special Liquidators have been appointed to investigate the sale of Siteserv to Millington, a Denis O'Brien controlled company.

    Ms Burton said if there are further inquiries needed to address specific issues, then she is perfectly happy to see that happen.

    Earlier today Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin called for the publication of the Siteserv share register.

    His call follows a report in today's Sunday Times that there was a surge in share activity a month before the State owned  bank IBRC received the first bids in a confidential sale process for Siteserv.

    Speaking on RTÉ's The Week in Politics, Mr Martin said Minister for Finance Michael Noonan should direct the Special Liquidators to publish the share register for the company.

    "I want that made public," he said.

    He said there has been "a bit of a cover-up" in terms of what was known about the sale of Siteserv. 

    Mr Martin said the fact Department of Finance officials had concerns about the sale was not revealed from the outset.

    Earlier Independent TD Catherine Murphy, who first raised concerns about the sale of Siteserv, told RTÉ News the increased share activity in the month before the receipt of formal bids raised extremely serious questions.

    She said: "We've been given the impression that this was a complete basket case and I wonder why people would chosen to invest in a company with that kind of a profile.

    "It needs an investigation from the Stock Exchange," she said.

    The circumstances surrounding the sale of the construction company to businessman Denis O'Brien in March 2012 have raised a storm of controversy in the Dáil.

    On Thursday, Mr Noonan announced a review of the sale of Siteserv and of other transactions by the IBRC, formerly Anglo Irish Bank.

    The increase in the number of shares traded at Siteserv in November 2011 happened just days before the first bids were received for the company - according to new analysis by The Sunday Times.

     
    http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0426/696836-siteserv/

    Labours revenge at being handed the poisoned chalice?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Boggles wrote: »
    The issue of repaying capital is moot, it was pushed out until the 1st of Jan 2013. It is not relevant to Siteservs ability to trade in the time frame we are discussing.

    I think though at this stage given the information we actually know, it is quite reasonable to assume that Siteserv at the very least could have traded until year end, probably quite comfortably and in all likely hood in profit. The unverified assertion that it only had 8 weeks left before oblivion, is in my opinion at best an over exaggeration and in truth probably BS. There is no way they would have tied themselves into exclusivity negotiations with one buyer if things were so perilous, was it 50 separate bids whittled down to 8? Siteserv was very very popular. It was actually extremely popular with it's clients too, even with the looming possibility of liquidation, the contracts kept rolling in, especially from state and semi state bodies.

    TBF, why wouldn't it be popular. For a finish, one State Owned Bank wrote off the bulk of it's debt with effectively the remaining debt being transferred to our other State Owned Bank, AIB. Like a car wash it comes out the other side, nice portfolio, profitable, with a nice serviceable debt ratio. Jackpot.

    I mean if Carlsberg did buyouts of "distressed companies".

    I repeat what I said earlier, there was a rush to sell it, not for the reason given, but other factors, timing appears to be everything with Siteserv, impeccable.

    I assume the next tender process by Irish Water will be the repair contracts for pipes, I wonder will Siteservs luck hold? The little company that Just Could! ;)

    The Chairman of the company said it had eight weeks cashflow left.

    Nobody has denied this and there are plenty who would have motivation to do that if it was BS.

    You are continually confusing profit and cashflow. They are not the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭Satriale




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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,432 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Satriale wrote: »

    It took almost 2 years (July 2013 to now) for questions to be raised again. It goes to show, if you want to bury controversy, do the deed just before Dail holidays. The papers forget and everybody else sees it as old news.

    Ignoring the sale value as it was bust, the biggest question is why the shareholders got even one cent. And why the board never recorded any mention of siteserv in it's minutes of the meetings. Ministerial oversight of sale process (any sale over 100m) and still the log just floated on by.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Joan Burton calling for unedited/censored details of the share activity in the months before its sale now too.

    I can't see how Noonan or Kenny could dismiss her tbh,.

    Micheál Martin all over it now too, this story is only in its infancy.

    http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0426/696836-siteserv/

    Labours revenge at being handed the poisoned chalice?

    It's frustrating to see how stupid people can be.
    There is a story in the FOI documents that nobody has noticed and it's about text messages.
    A prize for the first person here to figure it out. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    This is the story that will keep on giving.

    It will be very interesting to see how it develops


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,966 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    rrpc wrote: »
    The Chairman of the company said it had eight weeks cashflow left.

    Have you a link for that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭delahuntv


    2weeks on and I still don't see anything wrong.

    Catherine Murphy needed publicity as she was being smothered by other politicians in North Kildare - she got this, but anytime she talks its very obvious she has not got a clue.

    Others have jumped on it and because everyone is effectively singing from the same hymm sheet some people think there's something to the story.

    Nothing so far shows me anything untoward happened except some civil servant taking the hump becaue he did not get a cosy position and therefore deceided to make things difficult - that seems to be the only story.

    Had to laugh at sunday times yesterday - the "journalist" did not ask for teh share register because he thought he be refused - wow, some journalist there. Maybe he thouight was "if I got the share register, my story would not be a story"?

    Even if you check boards, there are old threads about siteserv and possible sale and possible buying of shares at 3.1c after DOB offering 3.92c.


    For the past 3 months you coul buy aer lingus shares up to 38c below the price offered by AIG! and you can still buy them at 2.37 - easy profit for the gamblers out there. IF a deal goes ahead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭delahuntv


    Old Boards threads -

    Its a gamblers share
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66179506


    Public news on sale to dob for 3.92c and shares still at 3.1c
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=52992707


    Basically, the stockmarket is like Paddy Power for suited people - its gambling on a bigger stage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Boggles wrote: »
    Have you a link for that?
    Walter Hobbs said that they eight weeks cash flow left, but this is what the chairman said at the time of the sale:

    “Because of leaks to the papers the business came under pressure from its creditors because there were questions around the financial viability of the business,” he explained. “We had to quickly get a transaction done at the best price.”

    Mr Cooney said Siteserv was under pressure to complete the deal swiftly at the end. “Because of the media speculation, credit insurers were threatening to withdraw cover, which was putting further pressure on the company … speed was of the essence,” he said.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    What's this about KPMG directors being shareholders in Siteserv?


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,966 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    rrpc wrote: »
    Walter Hobbs said that they eight weeks cash flow left, but this is what the chairman said at the time of the sale:

    “Because of leaks to the papers the business came under pressure from its creditors because there were questions around the financial viability of the business,” he explained. “We had to quickly get a transaction done at the best price.”

    Mr Cooney said Siteserv was under pressure to complete the deal swiftly at the end. “Because of the media speculation, credit insurers were threatening to withdraw cover, which was putting further pressure on the company … speed was of the essence,” he said.

    So the chairman never said anything about the company running out of cash?

    Walter Hobbs said nothing about 8 weeks cash flow either. :confused:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    mada999 wrote: »
    wow no comments on this by the regular blueshirt defenders on boards, seems very strange too ?

    These comments are really starting to piss me off. I have zero interest in Fine Gael as such but I will defend their actions if they should be defended. The anti-everything lot are so one-sided that a bit of balance goes a long way.

    And some of us like a trial before the hanging.


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