New Topics/Category Organisation Update 20:45 - Post 100

Dades

whatismyname wrote: »

If you don't know that a forum exists then you're not going to know to search for it on a search bar.

Whereas casual browsing allows you to browse and find forums / threads of interest.

Can you not casually browse anymore?

I agree the dropdown needs tweaking in terms of UX, but you can see all the available forums. Is it just the removal of expand-on-hover?

The_Morrigan

What the Bleep does UX mean?

Spear

I have entire stickies in N&F taking pains to point out the structure of boards.ie, so that new users can see what's available, and to show that this site isn't like Facebook/Twitter. There's 4500 off-topic threads in the N&F archive that show it was needed, and 12000 views on the sticky thread explaining where to find the forums and the category structure. The changes have undermined a lot of that.

This needs to be rolled back, it just hasn't worked in this form.

Khannie

The_Morrigan wrote: »

What the Bleep does UX mean?

User Experience.

Lovely Bloke

The_Morrigan wrote: »

What the Bleep does UX mean?

User Experience.

Seems there was a bit of blue sky thinking, but what hasn't really gained traction are the expected synergistic differential outcomes based on the futureproofing envisaged.

ThisRegard

Dades wrote: »

Can you not casually browse anymore?

I agree the dropdown needs tweaking in terms of UX, but you can see all the available forums. Is it just the removal of expand-on-hover?

It's a pain in the ass to do at the moment, I know I haven't since the change.

humanji

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's a pain in the ass to do at the moment, I know I haven't since the change.

How exactly did you all browse forums before? I never really did it myself, using the My Forums and Latest Posts thingy on the front page mostly and occasionally using the menu bar, but only for going to a specific forum I knew of. So I just wanted to know exactly how it's causing problems now. Is it the new categories or the UI of the Topics menu? Is it a case of just not being used to where things may have been moved to, or do the new locations make no sense?

ThisRegard

humanji wrote: »

How exactly did you all browse forums before? I never really did it myself, using the My Forums and Latest Posts thingy on the front page mostly and occasionally using the menu bar, but only for going to a specific forum I knew of. So I just wanted to know exactly how it's causing problems now. Is it the new categories or the UI of the Topics menu? Is it a case of just not being used to where things may have been moved to, or do the new locations make no sense?

I basically just went from left to right along the top. So hover over a menu, anything there I want to check out, nope, move on. Move to the next one, something there I'm interested in, a simple click brings me to the forum.

Whereas now it's one drop down menu and I have to move to each 'topic', click on it to expand, click on again in some cases to expand further. It doesn't lend itself to just perusing.

Think of each forum being stored on a shelf, you can wander by and see something of interest and take it. Now it's like if they were all stored in a deep drawer with the spine facing the other way, you're less likely to bother looking.

The Hill Billy

Corvo wrote: »

More navigation = bad

Less navigation = good

I think that it is better put as follows...

More navigation = bad

More intuitive navigation = good

El Guapo! wrote: »

Is the word "Topics" annoying anyone else?
Why isn't it just called "Categories", like most other sites?

I also honestly think that the new Category names are more meaningful to new members. Changing the dropdown to Topics is also better. This is a discussion site - people discuss 'topics' rather than 'categories'.

I do agree that the naming of the boards.ie dropdown needs to be sorted, as does its whole structure & the naming of the Sys section.

Nody

humanji wrote: »

How exactly did you all browse forums before? I never really did it myself, using the My Forums and Latest Posts thingy on the front page mostly and occasionally using the menu bar, but only for going to a specific forum I knew of. So I just wanted to know exactly how it's causing problems now. Is it the new categories or the UI of the Topics menu? Is it a case of just not being used to where things may have been moved to, or do the new locations make no sense?

Personally I'd (when bored/having time to kill) go in at random forums that caught my eyes. For example I'd have been under the old Rec(?) category for Animal & Pet issues and take a detour over to Mustard because there were no new posts of interest. Now I'd normally not visit Mustard but because it was listed along with all the else in a simple box it was easy to spot for those type of once off visits.

ThisRegard

The Hill Billy wrote: »

I also honestly think that the new Category names are more meaningful to new members. Changing the dropdown to Topics is also better. This is a discussion site - people discuss 'topics' rather than 'categories'.

But they discuss a topic within a category.

Lovely Bloke

ThisRegard wrote: »

I basically just went from left to right along the top. So hover over a menu, anything there I want to check out, nope, move on. Move to the next one, something there I'm interested in, a simple click brings me to the forum.

Whereas now it's one drop down menu and I have to move to each 'topic', click on it to expand, click on again in some cases to expand further. It doesn't lend itself to just perusing.

yeah this for me too.

I have 19 forums on "My Forums" and they get checked - for particular threads I have an interest in, for a short time I'll "follow" the thread and click to it whenever there are new posts.

A lot of the time I used to just hover on the category (say, Science - there are no Science forums on my subbed list) and peruse the list for forums. The odd time I'll click into the Astronomy forum to see if there's anything cool worth checking out with my binos - but I'm not a astronomy freak, just have a passing interest from time to time - and I can't have too many forums subbed because then it gets unwieldy.

Rinse and repead, Sci, Rec, Arts..etc

now though, I won't/can't do that because all of the forums are now buried under a further layer and aren't immediately visible by hovering, and I've zero interest in clicking a list, then another one then another one.

I'm a lazy bastard like that.

humanji

ThisRegard wrote: »

I basically just went from left to right along the top. So hover over a menu, anything there I want to check out, nope, move on. Move to the next one, something there I'm interested in, a simple click brings me to the forum.

Whereas now it's one drop down menu and I have to move to each 'topic', click on it to expand, click on again in some cases to expand further. It doesn't lend itself to just perusing.

Think of each forum being stored on a shelf, you can wander by and see something of interest and take it. Now it's like if they were all stored in a deep drawer with the spine facing the other way, you're less likely to bother looking.

Right, I get what you mean. I suppose if the Topics menu opened up with categories spread across the top of the page like it was before, it would solve a lot of browsing complaints and would possibly be more navigable.

whatismyname

humanji wrote: »

How exactly did you all browse forums before? I never really did it myself, using the My Forums and Latest Posts thingy on the front page mostly and occasionally using the menu bar, but only for going to a specific forum I knew of. So I just wanted to know exactly how it's causing problems now. Is it the new categories or the UI of the Topics menu? Is it a case of just not being used to where things may have been moved to, or do the new locations make no sense?

For me, nope, it's about the needing several more clicks to do most things - just making it a more drawn out process, removing some of the 'casual' browsing aspect, and just makes it too much effort tbh.. especially when it was so much more straightforward before.

People get used to where things are moved to, but when it takes so much longer to do anything, it just gets a little bit silly.

Beasty

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

How about the powers that be read the feedback, accept that 90% of users that have posted aren't happy with the change, accept that they made a mistake on this one and hold their hands up and admit it.

Just read through the thread - there have been around 100 "contributors", of which I reckon around 45 have expressed negative opinions on the new layout. In terms of posts it's much higher because those who have posted most have being re-iterating their dissatisfaction. As already suggested, these things can take a bit of time to get used to (I harped back to the earlier format when the last one was introduced but quickly bought into that one).

Of course, this is feedback, and it will naturally attract a higher level of dissatisfaction - that's human nature. Give it a week or two, let them iron out any remaining glitches, then see what you think (that's certainly what I'm doing)

Lovely Bloke

humanji wrote: »

Right, I get what you mean. I suppose if the Topics menu opened up with categories spread across the top of the page like it was before, it would solve a lot of browsing complaints and would possibly be more navigable.

amazing idea.

ThisRegard

humanji wrote: »

Right, I get what you mean. I suppose if the Topics menu opened up with categories spread across the top of the page like it was before, it would solve a lot of browsing complaints and would possibly be more navigable.

Yeah, I think that would be a good start alright.

Cuban Pete

Pfft, you should all be using the superior old skins anyway.

Dades

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

humanji wrote: »

Right, I get what you mean. I suppose if the Topics menu opened up with categories spread across the top of the page like it was before, it would solve a lot of browsing complaints and would possibly be more navigable.

amazing idea.

Not bad, I have to agree.

Though Boards seems to want away from the old "category across the top" look, and this might be dropping back into that territory.

Thinking forward to the revamped new site look on the horizon, however, they could do worse than having all the categories expand horizontally (from the new "menu" icon on the right) across the screen like that allowing hover-over dropdowns.

Either way there's a lot of agreement that that one extra click on the arrows (multiplied by the number of Cats you want to expand) is annoying people. Perhaps the hover-expand is in the plan, and just hasn't been implemented yet.

Myrddin

How about a delayed expansion of the individual categories under Topics? Ie, you hover over Topics to expand it, & then you hover over each of the categories but they won't expand until two or three seconds have passed? It removes the click, & is conducive to browsing in that sense.

On why it's called topics & not categories...you'd be amazed at how many users (even long term users) still don't really get terms like forum/thread/post. All the time I see users referring to categories as forums, forums as threads, and even to threads as posts. There's a lot of confusion out there about that, & in turn it hinders navigation for many people. I think an update to our labelling (ie topics) is only going to be a good thing as it simplifies and naturalises things.

whatismyname

Myrddin wrote: »

On why it's called topics & not categories...you'd be amazed at how many users (even long term users) still don't really get terms like forum/thread/post. All the time I see users referring to categories as forums, forums as threads, and even to threads as posts. There's a lot of confusion out there about that, & in turn it hinders navigation for many people. I think an update to our labelling (ie topics) is only going to be a good thing as it simplifies and naturalises things.

I don't have a problem with topics, although have see other people make good points especially re new users.

I'm wondering though if keeping 'topics' but making it 'discussion topics' would work better?

As you say confusion hinders navigation, but there can be hardly much confusion with 'discussion topics', and people knowing what they will find there.

Tokyo

Myrddin wrote: »

How about a delayed expansion of the individual categories under Topics? Ie, you hover over Topics to expand it, & then you hover over each of the categories but they won't expand until two or three seconds have passed? It removes the click, & is conducive to browsing in that sense.

That's pretty much what Dades is describing above - a menu system that expands onHover (preferably horizontally from the main dropdown), which would eliminate any clicking through the menu system. It's an approach that I would agree with too, incidentally, and it's quite possible that it's on the cards for the new site rollout.

osarusan

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Pfft, you should all be using the superior old skins anyway.

This is what I'm doing, and there has been no change!

Dropdown menus still there, although when I enter a forum, I can see the new categorisation at the top of the page.

Lovely Bloke

Dades wrote: »

Either way there's a lot of agreement that that one extra click on the arrows (multiplied by the number of Cats you want to expand) is annoying people. Perhaps the hover-expand is in the plan, and just hasn't been implemented yet.

It's not just "one extra" click though.

Yesterday I could hover, browse and click the forum I wanted (or click once for a subforum)

Now I have to

Click Topics-->Click Topic Name-->Click Forum-->(Click Subforum)

It's laborious and un-intuitive.

Yesterday I didn't know what forum I wanted to click into - I was randomly perusing the list, easily and with no effort, then clicking on random forums that caught my eye and posting in them

"Oh, there's the Archaelogy forum, think I'll have a look at that...click...oh no way, they've discovered a new tomb in my area, never heard of that I'll read that thread...click..no way, they want volunteers to clean up the park surrounding the tomb, this Saturday, I'll do that...click...post...**content generated**..."

today. hmmm, what forum do I want to read. Ah, none, I'll read the Guardian site instead. Oh look, some Irish Archaeologist discovered an ancient tomb and that's near where I live, wow".

See the difference?

nesf

Beasty wrote: »

As already suggested, these things can take a bit of time to get used to

Beasty, this is objectively worse than the old menu and is going to be replaced when we get the new UI (which looks like a potentially interesting change). It's not even going to be around long enough for us to get used to it (hopefully). It really feels like there was a decision made to preview the new categories and not enough time was devoted to designing a new menu as it was only ever going to be temporary with the new UI coming so soon.

The decision baffles me to be honest, it's just going to confuse casual users even more to have two major UI changes in quick succession coupled with the inelegant implementation in the first UI change.

Myrddin

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Now I have to

Click Topics...

Does Topics not just expand for you without clicking?

Dav

OK folks, can we *please* reign in the hyperbole, it really doesn't help. With the number of you that're unhappy, we're obviously going to see what we can do to address that. We do our damnedest to include our members in all these decisions and we have no intention of simply abandoning this policy.

What I would like to do is explain why we've taken some of these decisions because a disappointing number of you seem to think they were just done on a whim...

Our menu was too scary
There was a mass of information in it that was basically shorting out the head of any person who didn't understand what this site was from the off. You see a massive chunk of text with strange names that don't make sense then you'll ignore it. That's what people did. That's why you see all sorts of "how is babby formed?" questions turning up in Newbies & FAQ.

"New members won't know how to follow forums"
Actually, they will and we do it for them now when they sign up - you are asked what topics you're interested in and we follow those forums for you and stick 'em in your list.

"Having to use search is a mistake"
This was how and why we built the search bar like this 3+ years ago. Now I'm not trying to just suggest this as a cop out, but in terms of how we help people find their way around, this is a site with a thousand-ish forums, so finding the one you want will always be tricky. The search bar was one of the first tools we offered, the new layout is one of the latest. It's an evolving process though, it'll never be "finished" as we're going to continually see new forums added and older ones decline etc.

"Why on earth would you roll this out and not wait till the full redesign?"
A whole new interface PLUS a whole new layout of the site's forums would be, we think, too big of a change to hit people with. If anyone thinks that we're not going to be facing the usual litany of "it wasn't broken" and "the devs obviously have nothing to do so they made this work up" (that one is my personal favourite, the distressing lack of logic that goes into a statement like that is beyond my comprehension) combined with the classic "I'm never using this site again" and "this benefits nobody" - they're mistaken. They're the same arguments you see used on every single website that makes a change.

Folks, we've been doing this a long time. We don't make changes on a whim and we don't make them without your feedback. I'm going to see what I can come up with after having a chat with the tech team and the boss.

the groutch

sounds like a big ol mess, thankfully I'm still on the old old layout so changes have been minimal (just the bit of category tweeking, which except for the positioning of AH is ok).

if they ever remove the old old layout as an option though, I'll be gone in a flash.

TheDriver

don't like it to be honest........

The Black Oil

Will take a few days to get used to it, but I kinda like it.