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Marriage redefinition and Childrens rights

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    #842
    Flem31
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭Flem31


    This has been very educational over the past 24 hours re people's views.

    This upcoming referendum is about equality but perhaps it wont end at that.
    As we become more a la carte in our approach to life and to the laws and institutions that are there to guide us, this very individualistic approach will make us question more and more the very foundations on which we live our lives.
    I think that is a good thing as being ruled by restrict rules and how to act or behave hasn't done us any favours.


    Marriage will change with time, and how it will no one knows.
    I am open to the idea that it will change and as long as it doesn't do any harm then why not implement it.

    Perhaps in our quest to lead our lives the way we want, we miss the concept that although I may find something very disturbing, if enough people are in favour of it and who am I to stand in the way of progress. I am not referring to the current referendum re the repulsive comment but more so long overdue referendums that we may have in the coming years such as euthanasia and abortion.

    Over the past 24 hours I have thought a lot about the upcoming referendum and I will be voting yes.
    In that time, the numerous posts have convinced that as one large group of people, we are all equally broad minded or narrow minded depending on the issue. Posters when faced with a new piece such as marriage of blood relations automatically assumed the worst and incest etc was quickly used.
    Is that really any different from the no side when they refer to what they perceive to be the worst aspects of LGBT life.

    The yes side have restored my faith in humanity, being liberal depends on circumstances and if we have no prior experience on a topic, we are more likely to think the worst.

    I won't be posting again.
    I opened this account primarily to help with the decision making re this referendum and that is now done. Having seen some of the comments we make to each other on threads such as this and others, I am happy to close my account and leave the extreme attitudes and nastiness for someone else to look at.

    best of luck to the Yes side and I will be voting yes.
    This has been thought provoking and intriguing but wouldn't ever call it a fun.

    Goodbye


  • Options
    #843
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Flem31 wrote: »
    OneEyedJack has responded to several of my posts yesterday
    Nice try at stirring it up


    Flem I decided there was no point in responding to your posts yesterday when you couldn't even give a straight answer to the question being asked of us in this referendum. You want to discuss issues that have nothing to do with civil marriage equality for all citizens regardless of their sex.

    The other criteria apply to all citizens regardless of their sex. Those criteria used are not discriminatory in the sense you're trying to make out, they are qualifying criteria in legislation that must be met by all couples who wish to enter into the marital contract.

    The only qualifying criteria in that sense which is discriminatory is that the two parties entering into the contract of marriage must be of the opposite sex.

    The marital contract itself is not being redefined. It is the qualifying criteria which are being redefined, to remove the one criteria that discriminates against couples on the basis that the two people who want to enter into the contract are the same sex.

    I'm not shutting down the discussion when I say that the other criteria you want to address are simply not relevant to this discussion, which is about giving all people the opportunity to enter into the marital contract. The exact wording you're being asked to vote on is this -


    "Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex"


    That's it. That's all. That's what equality means in the context of the question you're being asked in this referendum. You have no right to point out what you see as the hypocrisy of other people for not wanting to stray from the discussion, when from their perspective - you are unwilling to stick to what's actually being discussed which is the question in the upcoming referendum.

    I'm not picking on you or getting at you and in fact I would only love to hear you discuss what's being asked of you, rather than listening to you sidestep the issue being discussed because you want to discuss something else and then complain when you're being asked as politely as possible to stay on topic.


  • Options
    #844
    fran17
    Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭fran17


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Fran is using LifeSiteNews to support his views on LGBT people - I might as well use RT and other Kremlin-aligned bullsh*tters to form my opinion about Glorious Putin.

    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.


  • Options
    #845
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    fran17 wrote: »
    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.

    Now fran, no need for the abuse. Care to comment on all of the organisations that say a same sex couple can raise a child just as well as an opposite sex couple? Care to comment how if the result is no same sex couples will be able to raise a child anyway? Or will you be disappearing for awhile to come back and give out more abuse?


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    #846
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    fran17 wrote: »
    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.

    Wanna answer those questions you were asked?


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    #847
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    fran17 wrote: »
    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.

    I am honestly so sick of hearing people describe MY family and MY son in these terms.

    It is hateful.
    It is hurtful.
    It is completely uncalled for.

    Nasty, judgmental, narrow minded, vitriol spouting ignoramuses who apparently are the very paragons of perfection in every aspect of their lives which allows them to insult and belittle others and feel this is 'debating' and acceptable.

    Yet these same people inevitable play the victim card and claim they are being oppressed and silenced.

    How very dare you!


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    #848
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    indy_man wrote: »
    Lend some weight to the minority

    http://keepmarriage.org/reasons-to-vote-no-irish-marriage-referendum.html

    Reason 5: Keep Ideology Out of Schools

    Honestly, I cannot comprehend the sheer hypocrisy or brass neck it takes for a Catholic group to list this as a reason to not do something.


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    #849
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    fran17 wrote: »
    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.


    fran I have to ask respectfully, are you capable of objectivity?

    How many more first hand accounts do you need before you realise that while there are indeed hundreds of stories out there from adults who were raised in what you call abnormal situations (by virtue of the fact that their parents were of the same sex) who were left psychologically damaged from their childhood, there are billions, billions of stories out there from adults who were raised in two parent, opposite sex families, who were left psychologically damaged from their childhood, and to this day I meet adults who struggle to cope with the residual psychological and emotional damage inflicted upon them in childhood.

    If you can break outside your own perspective for 30 seconds, you might hear what people are trying to tell you, instead of shutting people out that don't fit with your world view. Pretending the outside world doesn't exist fran is never a good idea, and it sure as hell with all due respect isn't very healthy.


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    #850
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    fran17 wrote: »
    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.

    Jump back a few pages and address my response to your post. It includes support from ISPCC with a far better argument than yours . They have the rights of children at forefront of your work. You're depending on a rather small group of children who weren't happy. You will find this in all walks of life. This does not disprove the research in the slightest. Posters on this very site have been raised by gay parents, admittedly still anecdotal. That's why we use research that backs up that there's little difference. You are letting your bigotry dictate your view,this has included conflating it with abuse in the past although you'll deny it even when evidence of you doing so is posted.


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    #851
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,156 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Flem31 wrote: »
    best of luck to the Yes side and I will be voting yes.

    Goodbye

    Hope this is true. Good luck and come on back when we get around to repealing the 8th.


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    #852
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    fran17 wrote: »
    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/child-victims-from-house-of-horrors-begin-legal-action-26722404.html

    I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in the abnormal situation of heterosexual parents.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally thousands of stories out there.

    Ban straight parenting now!!!*



    *what you mean the referendum has nothing to do with parenting?


  • Options
    #853
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    fran17 wrote: »
    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.

    You know that running away for a few hours doesn't make us forget your inability to answer even basic questions on the content of your posts?

    I does show us all that you are talking out of your ass though.


  • Options
    #854
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    fran17 wrote: »
    No actually,I'm using first hand accounts from adults who have been raised in this abnormal situation.They are left to deal with the psychological damage,the byproduct of these experiments.If you can break away from your comic books and crayons for half an hour look it up.There's literally hundreds of stories out there.
    You could compile a list of literally hundreds of millions of first-hand accounts of rape, mutilation and torture of children at the hands of their heterosexual parents.

    I guess by your logic, that proves that heterosexual relationships are inherently bad for children.

    Sadly, there are a lot of parents out there who should never be parents, and this is true regardless of sexuality.


  • Options
    #855
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Flem31 wrote: »
    This has been very educational over the past 24 hours re people's views.

    This upcoming referendum is about equality but perhaps it wont end at that.
    As we become more a la carte in our approach to life and to the laws and institutions that are there to guide us, this very individualistic approach will make us question more and more the very foundations on which we live our lives.
    I think that is a good thing as being ruled by restrict rules and how to act or behave hasn't done us any favours.


    Marriage will change with time, and how it will no one knows.
    I am open to the idea that it will change and as long as it doesn't do any harm then why not implement it.

    Perhaps in our quest to lead our lives the way we want, we miss the concept that although I may find something very disturbing, if enough people are in favour of it and who am I to stand in the way of progress. I am not referring to the current referendum re the repulsive comment but more so long overdue referendums that we may have in the coming years such as euthanasia and abortion.

    Over the past 24 hours I have thought a lot about the upcoming referendum and I will be voting yes.
    In that time, the numerous posts have convinced that as one large group of people, we are all equally broad minded or narrow minded depending on the issue. Posters when faced with a new piece such as marriage of blood relations automatically assumed the worst and incest etc was quickly used.
    Is that really any different from the no side when they refer to what they perceive to be the worst aspects of LGBT life.

    The yes side have restored my faith in humanity, being liberal depends on circumstances and if we have no prior experience on a topic, we are more likely to think the worst.

    I won't be posting again.
    I opened this account primarily to help with the decision making re this referendum and that is now done. Having seen some of the comments we make to each other on threads such as this and others, I am happy to close my account and leave the extreme attitudes and nastiness for someone else to look at.

    best of luck to the Yes side and I will be voting yes.
    This has been thought provoking and intriguing but wouldn't ever call it a fun.

    Goodbye

    You haven't witnessed any close mindedness.

    The only thing that happened is that people pointed out gaping flaws in your argument, and rather than addressing the criticisms, you just reformulated your original assertion or shifted the sands, but the original flaws remained.


  • Options
    #856
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Better restart the countdown for his return.


  • Options
    #857
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    Reason 5: Keep Ideology Out of Schools

    Honestly, I cannot comprehend the sheer hypocrisy or brass neck it takes for a Catholic group to list this as a reason to not do something.

    This completely astounds me! Any Catholic group or representative in this country using that as an argument against equal marriage is the very definition of ignorance. This group are clearly so culturally unaware that they actually have no concept of the privilege society currently bestows on their religion.


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    #858
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Interesting to note which poster YET AGAIN has disappeared when asked to back up their rubbish posts and insulting comments. Then again does anyone expect any different from them?


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    #859
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    Views from others raised in same sex households.

    A woman raised by two mothers has admitted the experience was "damaging and confusing," and has warned of the potential for "irreparable, long-term damage to a child."


    Hetty Baynes Russell, 58, said her unconventional parental setup fostered "a
    life of confusion and a lack of emotional security,"

    http://www.charismanews.com/culture/49185-being-raised-by-2-mothers-ruined-my-life

    Jean-Dominique Bunel, opposes the bill opening adoption to homosexual
    couples. He has decided to break the silence to tell how his life was affected
    by the fact of having two mothers.

    https://www.familyfirst.org.nz/2013/01/i-was-brought-up-by-two-women/

    Charles Mitchell and two brothers were adopted as infants by two men. He
    called same-sex adoption “a tragic social experiment” and said, “homosexuality destroyed a normal way of life for us.”


    Often, the homosexual parents shown in the media are straight-laced,
    responsible men. Mitchell said that his “dad” and “uncle” weren’t unlike that.
    But “it’s not just the two people involved; it’s the environment.”

    http://www.bettnet.com/the_real_cost_of_gay_adoption/


    After my parents’ separation, my sister and I began spending every other
    weekend with my father in the city. He shared a condo with a man who had also left his wife and children. The man’s two daughters seemed to have adjusted to the situation. It was as if everything was "normal." But I felt anything but normal. It was as if I had fallen asleep and woken up in a bizarre alternate reality. At the end of the day, my father would not walk into the bedroom with my mom, like he had done only weeks before. Instead, he headed off to bed with a man I had met only days before.

    http://www.pureintimacy.org/m/my-father%E2%80%99s-closet/

    As I read about these cases the stronger my resolve grows that voting no is the right thing to do, if I don,t listen to those voices who have experienced same sex households who do I listen to ?


  • Options
    #860
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    S.O wrote: »
    Views from others raised in same sex households.



    http://www.charismanews.com/culture/49185-being-raised-by-2-mothers-ruined-my-life



    https://www.familyfirst.org.nz/2013/01/i-was-brought-up-by-two-women/



    http://www.bettnet.com/the_real_cost_of_gay_adoption/



    http://www.pureintimacy.org/m/my-father%E2%80%99s-closet/

    As I read about these cases the stronger my resolve grows that voting no is the right thing to do, if I don,t listen to those voices who have experienced same sex households who do I listen to ?

    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
    American Psychiatric Association
    American Psychological Association
    American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy
    American Psychoanalytic Association
    National Association of Social Workers
    Child Welfare League of America
    North American Council on Adoptable Children
    Canadian Psychological Association
    Australian Psychological Society

    How will voting no prevent same sex couples raising children?


  • Options
    #861
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    shruikan2553 wrote: »

    How will voting no prevent same sex couples raising children?

    I read in todays Irish times a legal challenge is being prepared in the case of a no vote.
    He confirmed the group is considering taking a legal challenge against
    provisions in the Children and Family Relationships Act in the event of
    a No vote.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mothers-and-fathers-matter-launches-no-referendum-campaign-1.2179575


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    #862
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    S.O wrote: »
    I read in todays Irish times a legal challenge is being prepared in the case of a no vote.



    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mothers-and-fathers-matter-launches-no-referendum-campaign-1.2179575

    So it does nothing?

    The EU court of human rights have said that a same sex couple has the right to adopt a child.


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    #863
    fran17
    Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭fran17


    floggg wrote: »
    You know that running away for a few hours doesn't make us forget your inability to answer even basic questions on the content of your posts?

    I does show us all that you are talking out of your ass though.

    I really do not understand why you continue to avoid reprimand for the grossly uncivil language you use against people in this thread.


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    #864
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    S.O wrote: »
    Views from others raised in same sex households.



    http://www.charismanews.com/culture/49185-being-raised-by-2-mothers-ruined-my-life



    https://www.familyfirst.org.nz/2013/01/i-was-brought-up-by-two-women/



    http://www.bettnet.com/the_real_cost_of_gay_adoption/



    http://www.pureintimacy.org/m/my-father%E2%80%99s-closet/

    As I read about these cases the stronger my resolve grows that voting no is the right thing to do, if I don,t listen to those voices who have experienced same sex households who do I listen to ?
    I'll warrant that for every one of those anecdotes you could find one from a person raised by a same sex couple who had a great upbringing, and a dozen from people raised by heterosexual couples that had awful, damaging upbringings.


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    #865
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    S.O wrote: »
    Views from others raised in same sex households.



    http://www.charismanews.com/culture/49185-being-raised-by-2-mothers-ruined-my-life



    https://www.familyfirst.org.nz/2013/01/i-was-brought-up-by-two-women/



    http://www.bettnet.com/the_real_cost_of_gay_adoption/



    http://www.pureintimacy.org/m/my-father%E2%80%99s-closet/

    As I read about these cases the stronger my resolve grows that voting no is the right thing to do, if I don,t listen to those voices who have experienced same sex households who do I listen to ?

    Vote no if you feel that is the right thing to do but please don't pretend that the referendum has any impact on whether or not gay people can adopt.
    It doesn't. Gay people can already adopt.Gay people can and do adopt as individuals. Thanks to the Children and Family Relationships Bill being enacted gay people in Civil Partnerships will soon be able to adopt as a couple. Voting no will not change this.

    So, while it's great that you took some time to do some reseach it's a pity that you didn't bother to learn what the referendum is to decide. It's to decide if same sex couples can marry. That's it. Nothing to do with adoption because Gay people can already adopt children.

    You could also pop over to AMA and read what Sonics2K had to say about being raised by a same sex couple... or listen to a podcast of him talking about in on Radio One to Sean O Rourke where he made the point over and over again that this referendum has nothing to do with adoption because gay people can already adopt.

    Have you got the message yet?

    Gay people CAN ALREADY ADOPT.


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    #866
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Vote no if you feel that is the right thing to do but please don't pretend that the referendum has any impact on whether or not gay people can adopt.
    It doesn't. Gay people can already adopt.Gay people can and do adopt as individuals. Thanks to the Children and Family Relationships Bill being enacted gay people in Civil Partnerships will soon be able to adopt as a couple. Voting no will not change this.

    So, while it's great that you took some time to do some reseach it's a pity that you didn't bother to learn what the referendum is to decide. It's to decide if same sex couples can marry. That's it. Nothing to do with adoption because Gay people can already adopt children.

    You could also pop over to AMA and read what Sonics2K had to say about being raised by a same sex couple... or listen to a podcast of him talking about in on Radion One to Sean O Rourke where he made the point that this referendum has nothing to do with adoption because gay people can already adopt.

    Have you got the message yet?

    Gay people CAN ALREADY ADOPT.

    I find it hard to believe that after multiple explanations people still dont understand this. It's as if they just dont like gay people.


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    #867
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    For those who are voting yes, If voting yes to allow two guys to marry under equality banner, why not stop at allowing two guys why not three guys ?

    Case from Thailand.

    Three gay men have tied the knot in what is thought to be the world's first
    three-way same-sex marriage.

    Joke, 29, Bell, 21 and Art, 26, exchanged vows during a marriage-style
    ceremony on Valentine's Day at their home in Uthai Thani Province, Thailand.

    The grooms are thought to be the world's only wedded male threesome and have become internet sensations since photos from their big day went viral.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-do-do-do-three-5241726


  • Options
    #868
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    fran17 wrote: »
    I really do not understand why you continue to avoid reprimand for the grossly uncivil language you use against people in this thread.

    You called my family abnormal.
    You said my son has psychological damage.
    You called my family an experiment.

    That goes beyond uncivil - that is obnoxious in the extreme.


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    #869
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    S.O wrote: »
    For those who are voting yes, If voting yes to allow two guys to marry under equality banner, why not stop at allowing two guys why not three guys ?

    Case from Thailand.



    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-do-do-do-three-5241726

    Annnd...all off for Polygamy... next stop Incest... all change at bestiality for marrying inanimate objects.


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    #870
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    S.O wrote: »
    For those who are voting yes, If voting yes to allow two guys to marry under equality banner, why not stop at allowing two guys why not three guys ?

    Case from Thailand.



    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-do-do-do-three-5241726

    Because under current laws polygamy is illegal. The reason it is, as far as I know, is for reasons of inheritance. Homosexual and heterosexual polygamy is certainly something that could be look into for future referenda, if the inheritance issues were cleared up.


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    #871
    Grey Wind
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Grey Wind


    S.O wrote: »
    Views from others raised in same sex households.

    As I read about these cases the stronger my resolve grows that voting no is the right thing to do, if I don,t listen to those voices who have experienced same sex households who do I listen to ?
    Most of the people in those anecdotes had a difficult upbringing for reasons other than having gay parents (one was deeply religious and homophobic, one was molested etc). They can't be used to prove anything about the capability of gay parents.


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