NARGC boycott

Gormley85

I am so sick of Des Crofton always 'representing shooters' when its a position he only has because often various clubs have an 'NARGC insurance only' policy.

As chair for one club and secretary for another I will be calling this to task at our next meetings and proposing that we stop accepting and recognising NARGC and only accept Countryside Alliance.

I would suggest others on here do the same.

deeksofdoom

Well you would really want to look into this before you go proposing it. Every member would want to be in agreement and signed up to this before they go for another insurance cover.

If anything goes pear shaped with a claim from the new insurer and they won't pay out for something that the NARGC would have covered then the club or the committee could end up paying for it.

Do your homework before making any proposals at your meetings. Every individual in the club will have to be in agreement.

wirehairmax

Why has there been a sudden change of NARGC chairman? The vice-chairman is acting chair now. Anybody know what happened ?

Cass

wirehairmax wrote: »

Why has there been a sudden change of NARGC chairman? The vice-chairman is acting chair now. Anybody know what happened ?

I believe there is a private/personal issue involved here and i think it best if we leave it at that.


@ Gormley85 - I am not setting out to tell people to leave the NARGC. What each club does is up to them.

The NARGC as an organisation serves a function. However through mismanagement, incompetence, lack of consultation, lack of understanding of their own members needs and wants, and an unchangeable personal belief (by the heads of the organisation) that the course they are on is the best, they have lost their way (imo).

Writing to them, as suggested on the main thread, would barely fall on deaf ears. Most likely it would end up in the bin. Even hundreds would not deter their course of action. I'm afraid the only way forward i can see is a complete separation from them. I realise that is not as easy as it sounds, and like an election people will always fall back to what they know over trying something new. So the NARGC represent safety in that manner.

However this is also the problem. Knowing this they know people will not just up and leave. I'm not going to suggest who to go to instead of them as it's not my intent or place to "advertise"" for other companies. All i ask is that the various clubs look closely at what is being done on their behalf, ask questions, ask the right questions, to the right people, and then make up their mind.

@ Deeksofdoom - That is a little like saying don't ever go outside because you might fall, get robbed, etc.

Deeksofdoom wrote:

If anything goes pear shaped with a claim from the new insurer and they won't pay out for something that the NARGC would have covered then the club or the committee could end up paying for it.

If a person or club does the necessary checks and their due diligence and find a new group can offer the same or better coverage then change. If not then stay where they are. The topic is not about which cover is best, it's about the actions of the NARGC, it's implications to the shooting community and the repercussions of allowing them to go unchecked. If they won't listen to people's complaints and act independently of the greater communities wishes then you have to voice your disgust in any other way you can.

nastros

There are a number of clubs who moved from NARGC insurance and have had no issues what so ever.

deerhunter1

Gormley85 wrote: »

I am so sick of Des Crofton always 'representing shooters' when its a position he only has because often various clubs have an 'NARGC insurance only' policy.

As chair for one club and secretary for another I will be calling this to task at our next meetings and proposing that we stop accepting and recognising NARGC and only accept Countryside Alliance.

I would suggest others on here do the same.

why, coming across a bit heavy without explaining yourself

LIFFY FISHING

As the NARGC is the only Irish representative body looking after the interests of Irish Hunters and shooters, who put funds directly back into clubs, I suggest that any thinking Shooters should ignore the rantings of an individual who must have an agenda to settle.

Sparks

deerhunter1 wrote: »

why, coming across a bit heavy without explaining yourself

Because he just threw us all under a bus, again, in order to try to get the "Sports Coalition" put in charge of more stuff. And in so doing, has probably lost us a favorable ear at a time when we desperately needed one.

Gormley85

Cass wrote: »

I'm afraid the only way forward i can see is a complete separation from them. I realise that is not as easy as it sounds, and like an election people will always fall back to what they know over trying something new.

Cass wrote: »

If they won't listen to people's complaints and act independently of the greater communities wishes then you have to voice your disgust in any other way you can.

Exactly.

I see this almost as a political situation. If you arent happy with a political party or how they are doing their business you dont vote for them at the next election. Simple. This is what we are doing here.

And as you said, sending them angry letters will probably just end up in the bin. The only way the NARGC will sit up and listen is if they suddenly see club after club leaving because us shooters are sick and tired of getting 'throwing under the bus' so to speak.

Cass wrote: »

All i ask is that the various clubs look closely at what is being done on their behalf, ask questions, ask the right questions, to the right people, and then make up their mind.

Should we compile a list of questions that clubs need to be asking themselves? If my own clubs are anything to go by, Id say there are a lot of clubs out there that only vaguely know something is going on.

Deeksofdoom wrote: »

Well you would really want to look into this before you go proposing it.

Thanks for the advice. The plan is to get quotes and covers from all the different insurance companies I can get and then propose them at the next meeting.

Deeksofdoom wrote: »

Every individual in the club will have to be in agreement.

Deeksofdoom wrote: »

Every member would want to be in agreement and signed up to this before they go for another insurance cover.

Majority wins. It was only 2 years ago one of our clubs had a vote on exclusive NARGC policy and of course the lads who had already paid with different insurance companies didnt like the idea of paying out again so they voted against it... but in the end majority won.

Sparks

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

As the NARGC is the only Irish representative body looking after the interests of Irish Hunters and shooters, who put funds directly back into clubs

That's just plain incorrect. Every NGB does this. They may not stand on rooftops blowing smoke up their own backsides about it, but they do it...

deerhunter1

Sparks wrote: »

Because he just threw us all under a bus, again, in order to try to get the "Sports Coalition" put in charge of more stuff. And in so doing, has probably lost us a favorable ear at a time when we desperately needed one.

Ok was off the scene for a while, and not following what as happening

Sparks

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Ok was off the scene for a while, and not following what as happening

No worries, nobody knew about it until two or three days ago anyway, it was all done in secret back in February.

Gormley85

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

As the NARGC is the only Irish representative body looking after the interests of Irish Hunters and shooters, who put funds directly back into clubs, I suggest that any thinking Shooters should ignore the rantings of an individual who must have an agenda to settle.

So you think the NARGC are the only ones pumping money back into the sport and representing shooters/clubs? Who told you this? Was it the NARGC?

And a personal agenda? Ehh... Along with all the other shooters in the country that are feeling stabbed in the back..... once again..... by the NARGC.

LIFFY FISHING

Can you please list the organisations who put cash funds back into clubs please ?

Sparks

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Can you please list the organisations who put cash funds back into clubs please ?

The NTSA, the NASRPC, the NSAI, the Pony Club, the NRAI, the SSAI while they existed, the MPAI, actually, pretty much every NGB out there. I've seen them do it, I've seen their accounts.

Gormley85

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Can you please list the organisations who put cash funds back into clubs please ?

I get the feeling thats not a genuine question. If you were that interested you would just google it yourself. And no doubt, even if I did post the list you would attack it, or downplay it, or find some other way to keep the heat off NARGC.

According to you I have an agenda, when really Im just sick of the NARGC saying they represent me and given recommendations (that would see me lose my firearms) and they are giving these recommendations to the government on my behalf.

I get the feeling most shooters here on boards would be against what the NARGC have just done. Except you it seems. I think the real question here is, why are you so quick to defend them? Whats your agenda?

Cass

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

As the NARGC is the only Irish representative body looking after the interests of Irish Hunters and shooters, who put funds directly back into clubs, I suggest that any thinking Shooters should ignore the rantings of an individual who must have an agenda to settle.

I'm surprised and a little disgusted that you think that the NARGC put so much money back into the hands of clubs that their shadowy and back room dealings are worthy of excuse from their past and recent actions.

What good will gun clubs be when there are no guns left to shoot. Then it's just a club. It' exactly this kind of excusing away misdeeds that allows them to continue to do as they please.

You fail to realise that the gun clubs hold the power, or more precisely the members within the gun clubs. Without them the NARGC ceases to be. Plus as a member of a club and the founder of another i never seen a penny back from them. The set up cost, running cost, and everything in between was done at the cost of membership fees and our own work.

Gormley85 wrote: »

Should we compile a list of questions that clubs need to be asking themselves? If my own clubs are anything to go by, Id say there are a lot of clubs out there that only vaguely know something is going on.

By all means. I would suggest compiling your questions, and speaking with other clubs. See how many of them actually know the sh*t storm we are in and if they are aware of the actions of the NARGC via the coalition. Discuss your options, get a feel of their attitudes and make sure you are well prepared to answer questions and inform them of the current standings of things. Then look not only towards letters/e-mails but also a petition or group letter with each club signing rather than individual members.

It still amazes me that there are people that don't know anything about what is going on. I mean nothing. I've spoken to a few people in the last week to month and even a gun dealer within this group was unaware of either what was happening or the extent of it. He was disgusted and sickened. As members of the groups within the coalition they were not informed of their actions:

• Before they took it
• As it was happening
• After it happened

I've met some that say "i'm not into politics" to which i can only say "how are you about keeping your guns?"

Gormley85

Cass wrote: »

It still amazes me that there are people that don't know anything about what is going on. I mean nothing. I've spoken to a few people in the last week to month and even a gun dealer within this group was unaware of either what was happening or the extent of it.

Cass Im a frequent reader here and I try to keep up with it but Im not even going to pretend, I still dont even really know whats going on. So I dont hold it against anyone thats clueless. Theres so much history, with dozens of different organisations to get your head around, so many court cases, so many laws/acts, different politicians gunning for us and then amongst ourselves theres any amount of back stabbing and bad blood over the years. Its not easy to get your head around it all.

Cass wrote: »

Then look not only towards letters/e-mails but also a petition or group letter with each club signing rather than individual members.

How about this. If we write up an easy to understand and simple to follow guide to whats happening, explaining the situation and how bad it is, and what they can do to help, would you and Sparks sticky it and then we can send out links to all the different clubs facebook pages... and then just fingers crossed enough people will sit up and listen.

Cass

Gormley85 wrote: »

Cass Im a frequent reader here and I try to keep up with it but Im not even going to pretend, I still dont even really know whats going on. So I dont hold it against anyone thats clueless.

When i say they don't know what is going on i mean they did not know there were proposals from An Gardaí, that two review committee meetings were held, that we risk loosing all our guns, etc. IOW they had no idea any of this was going on. not a bit.

I wouldn't expect everyone to know every aspect. Few do.

How about this. If we write up an easy to understand and simple to follow guide to whats happening, explaining the situation and how bad it is, and what they can do to help, would you and Sparks sticky it and then we can send out links to all the different clubs facebook pages... and then just fingers crossed enough people will sit up and listen.

I could look into a "quick guide" type post over the next few weeks. However anything at a club level (action that is) needs to be at club level. It's not my place to tell clubs what they should do. My only reason for my latest posts in the main thread and here is to highlight what is going on and ask people are they happy with what is being done on their behalf. I know i'm not. I've no affiliation to the NARGC or NASRPC, i've made sure of that, and yet i get lumped into the same people they claim to represent by default. IOW the review committee see the coalition as representing the shooting community. They don't differentiate between the various groups. It's not ignorance, they simply don't know the full "tree" that is the shooting world.

berettaman

As an ordinary gun club member I can tell you that most of the NARGC members have not got a clue about the politics side of things. There are about 5 -10 individuals at the top that need to be removed for the good of the sport...and trust me we are working on that. Difficult to get people to stand up an be counted...

Gormley85

Cass wrote: »

However anything at a club level (action that is) needs to be at club level. It's not my place to tell clubs what they should do.

Of course. And its not my place either. Its up to each club to decide on their own actions and take a majority vote.

But the problem is, or the way I see it, is that the people and clubs just dont know any different. And if they dont know then they will continue to sit back happily thinking the NARGC are out fighting the good fight on their behalf.

Then in a year or two when they lose their guns or have to go through some kinda apprenticeship and "build up" their collection or have to get these monitored time locks installed on their safes there'll be any amount of kicking up then when its too late.

Cass wrote: »

IOW the review committee see the coalition as representing the shooting community. They don't differentiate between the various groups. It's not ignorance, they simply don't know the full "tree" that is the shooting world.

Thats another issue alright. Maybe when we write up this post, it might be worth sending them a copy of it just to let them know the shenanigans and that the majority of shooters don't feel represented by NARGC.

tikkahunter

I was at a regional county agm recently and was not really impressed with how little air time this subject got at it , it was a perfect time to get on to secretary's and chairmen from the clubs and give out the information and risks associated with this bill if it passes.All there was was 2 minutes at the end where one of them partition forms was produced and everybody was ask to sign and ask their members to log on and sign and the reason was the government where" looking to ban a few handguns and the likes".(70% of my club members would not know how to turn a computer on never mind log on )
I piped up and let everybody know exactly what they where looking to ban and what the implications where for their club members ,i would not have that information or know half as much of what is going on only for all the information that is posted on this site.
The communication is very poor to clubs and there is no scope for feedback.
I have defended Des Croftan many a time and the Nargc as they have helped me and my club club out on a number of occasions but im far from impressed with that letter or the lack of dialogue with the clubs but that being said im not going to cut my nose off to spite my face and switch to the country alliance when its an inferior policy ,if anything happens me or my dogs when im out i want the best cover but i do think Secretary's should be forwarding their displeasure at how they are being represented.

grassroot1

The email that was sent to the Firearms Committee had nothing to do with the NARGC, it was sent by the spokesman for the Sports Coalition.

Cass

Same person. From the website:

Des Crofton

National Director, NARGC & Spokesperson for the Sports Coalition.

Cass

Are you trying to insult my intelligence? You are saying that the NARGC had no hand in the letter that was sent?

Seeing as how they are the largest party in this "coalition" and their director happens to be the spokesperson for the "coalition" how could they not have a hand in it? If they did not then perhaps the NARGC would like to issue a separate statement in which they say they either agree with (support) the points in the interim report and the letter sent by their director in his role as spokesperson for the "coalition" or they don't.

grassroot1

No Cass I am not insulting your intelligence, if the email was not discussed with the Sports Coalition what would make you think it was discussed with the NARGC.

Cass

toolazyforgolf wrote: »

Is that for me?

No.

Let me clarify my post.

NARGC are involved BUT they are not the ONLY organisation involved. Des is the head of NARGC & Spokesperson of Coalition. So he's responsible as he's obviously speaking for NARGC in the first instance & as Coalition Spokesperson in the second instance. And to repeat myself he or the NARGC are not the only problem.

Agreed he/they are not the only ones in the "coalition". The problem is much bigger in that other heads off other organisations agreed or signed their name to this travesty.

grassroot1 wrote: »

No Cass I am not insulting your intelligence, if the email was not discussed with the Sports Coalition what would make you think it was discussed with the NARGC.

So you're saying there is a possibility the letter sent by Des Crofton, as spokesperson of the "coalition", was sent without him consulting with either the rest of the "coalition" or his own organisation?

I don't agree with the man, his methods, the letter that was sent, etc. but he is not a stupid man. To do something like that would leave him in a very bad position. Writing such a letter under the guise of representing all parties involved even though it was from his own thoughts!!!!!!!!!

However if you can show he done this i'd be very interested as i would be in the reaction of the members of the "coalition" and the NARGC to the letter. Assuming, as you said, that they did not know he sent it.

tikkahunter

Do you know off hand who else had a hand in that letter ?

tikkahunter

toolazyforgolf wrote: »

All the organisations in the Coalition whether they knew about it or not. It was sent by their spokesperson.

I was looking for specific names as a few lads where preaching one thing all the time yet this letter getting sent in proves they where just lying to lads about what their motives.

Cass

Me?

As it was on, and written under the heading of the "coalition" i'm assuming all members of it signed off on it. If you want names go to the websites of each organisation on the "coalition" and search for chairman, secretary, etc in each. You'll have your names.

tikkahunter

Cass wrote: »

Me?

As it was on, and written under the heading of the "coalition" i'm assuming all members of it signed off on it. If you want names go to the websites of each organisation on the "coalition" and search for chairman, secretary, etc in each. You'll have your names.

http://www.sportscoalition.org/home/who-we-are/

Ok i was a bit wide of the mark ,i dont see any of the deer associations on it and thats what i was looking for.