Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

O Riain

Why would Maurice have walked off the panel?

mountgomery burns

robopaddy2 wrote: »

EP has always been AI weekend. Must be tough on ye cats never getting to one

I'm no cat. Also I was there 4 years ago, twas on the weekend before. The Dublin v Mayo football semi final was on the Sunday.

conditioned games

Might be a bit early for this discussion with the game tomorrow but anyway.... With kilkenny's win tonight they seem favourites again for the all allireland this year with an unbreakable team spirit that gives it their all.

Many teams have tried but how does a county match and beat them when it matters in championship. Tipp have been no. 2 for the last 7 seasons and got lucky with 3 goals in 2011, lovely wristy hurlers but when in a physical battle they cant handle it.

Watching Waterford last year in the semi it was like men versus boys in the physical exchanges. Kilkenny arm out bang, another Kilkenny man arm out bang, wore the team down and last 15 mins was a formality.

What can give a team an advantage over this physical team that gives it their all with a tight defense and direct hurling?

To me there is no alternative but to match that philosophy. Last year in the all Ireland Galway won midfield in the first half, 7 mins into second half Kilkenny brought their Conner forward to midfield, Galway stayed the same, hit a brick wall and lost the game.

Winning of a game to a large extent is based on winning midfield. A midfielder can only give so much, can we not start rotating our midfield with the half backs for 10 mins to give them a rest.

Impressed with Waterford so far this year, we will come close this year but I just don't see us overcoming that physical aggression later in the year.

Physically a team doesn't make up that difference in just 12 months, something extra needs to looked at to bridge that gap. What can give us that edge this year?

HatchetMan7

conditioned games wrote: »

Might be a bit early for this discussion with the game tomorrow but anyway.... With kilkenny's win tonight they seem favourites again for the all allireland this year with an unbreakable team spirit that gives it their all.

Many teams have tried but how does a county match and beat them when it matters in championship. Tipp have been no. 2 for the last 7 seasons and got lucky with 3 goals in 2011, lovely wristy hurlers but when in a physical battle they cant handle it.

Watching Waterford last year in the semi it was like men versus boys in the physical exchanges. Kilkenny arm out bang, another Kilkenny man arm out bang, wore the team down and last 15 mins was a formality.

What can give a team an advantage over this physical team that gives it their all with a tight defense and direct hurling?

To me there is no alternative but to match that philosophy. Last year in the all Ireland Galway won midfield in the first half, 7 mins into second half Kilkenny brought their Conner forward to midfield, Galway stayed the same, hit a brick wall and lost the game.

Winning of a game to a large extent is based on winning midfield. A midfielder can only give so much, can we not start rotating our midfield with the half backs for 10 mins to give them a rest.

Impressed with Waterford so far this year, we will come close this year but I just don't see us overcoming that physical aggression later in the year.

Physically a team doesn't make up that difference in just 12 months, something extra needs to looked at to bridge that gap. What can give us that edge this year?

Workrate. If you look at Kilkenny and Waterford teams, Kilkenny come out on top in most areas. Physicality, experience, adaptability, high fielding.
The skill level between the 2 teams is closing with TJ Reid and Richie Hogan being the real difference IMO. At the moment we are probably one of the fittest teams in the country but real fitness is about being able to take a big hit and carry on with little to no effect. Gleeson alluded to this last year after the Kilkenny game when Michael Fennelly put a big hit on Gleeson early on and Gleeson said it took him a good 10 min to recover.
Out working Kilkenny in a championship match would be no mean feat but we are heading in the right direction. Our Physicality is only going to improve over the next few years and with time comes experience but we need to be making finals on a regular basis to accelerate this. You can also see improvements in the air even from last year. I think adaptability is probably the one area that will take the longest to get right and certainly the management team will play a key role here obviously.
I know some people might say that you can't outwork Kilkenny but the simple answer is you can but only by very fine margins. If you beat Kilkenny in the championship its only going to be by a point or two and its these small margins that will make all the difference.

conditioned games

Yes we are moving in the right direction I can see but we have to be realistic and win now rather than down the line and be happy be that.

What can we do now to overcome those barriers. I think there are options, a player taking a deep breath in the tackle can take those hits, rotating midfield, and been alert to the opposition changes can overcome those deficiencies.

As it stands we are improving but willingness to accept the overall determination of ultimate honnors is not good enough and as selfish as it sounds more is needed. Ultimate goal is to win an all Ireland and as it stands there is a team there that knows how to beat us come championship. How do we overcome that now is the question. Physicality alone won't bridge that gap this year.

HatchetMan7

And my answer is workrate. We cant match Kilkenny in the physical stakes yet, we don't have their experience, we must learn how to adapt within games and they are still better in the air. So the one thing we can do is try and outwork Kilkenny which is possible.

redlead

HatchetMan7 wrote: »

And my answer is workrate. We cant match Kilkenny in the physical stakes yet, we don't have their experience, we must learn how to adapt within games and they are still better in the air. So the one thing we can do is try and outwork Kilkenny which is possible.

We still need to figure out how to beat Tipp too. We haven't even come close to beating them in championship for years.

KevIRL

redlead wrote: »

We still need to figure out how to beat Tipp too. We haven't even come close to beating them in championship for years.

Very good point, we have come a lot closer to beating KK in recent years than Tipp

STIG83

redlead wrote: »

We still need to figure out how to beat Tipp too. We haven't even come close to beating them in championship for years.

2008 Al semi the last time?
Did we play them in 2010 to win the Munster title?
Wouldn't say it's been years, not beating KK in championship is def for years!!

robopaddy2

redlead wrote: »

We still need to figure out how to beat Tipp too. We haven't even come close to beating them in championship for years.

I don't agree its about 'finding a way' to beat them, we simply haven't been good enough to start with. Weve been in transition pretty much since end of 2008 / 2009. We were an aging team then and the players that came behind them weren't quite good enough in that period, as KK and Tipp were ahead of the pack for the following 3 or 4 years. Both Davy Fitz and Michael Ryan did well to get as much as they did out of those players considering we werent quite at the level of the 'big 2'.
Now that a quality crop of young players has started filtering through, the gap has certainly closed on Tipp and KK. Last year we were still short of beating either, but this year I would see us as being good enough on our day to take Tipp. Not saying we will but there wouldn't be much in it. KK yes I agree you need to know how to beat them aswell as be good enough. Do we fall in either category I'm not convinced.

redlead

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I don't agree its about 'finding a way' to beat them, we simply haven't been good enough to start with. Weve been in transition pretty much since end of 2008 / 2009. We were an aging team then and the players that came behind them weren't quite good enough in that period, as KK and Tipp were ahead of the pack for the following 3 or 4 years. Both Davy Fitz and Michael Ryan did well to get as much as they did out of those players considering we werent quite at the level of the 'big 2'.
Now that a quality crop of young players has started filtering through, the gap has certainly closed on Tipp and KK. Last year we were still short of beating either, but this year I would see us as being good enough on our day to take Tipp. Not saying we will but there wouldn't be much in it. KK yes I agree you need to know how to beat them aswell as be good enough. Do we fall in either category I'm not convinced.

I agree that we were not good enough, I was just making the point that it's not just a case of talking about how to beat Kilkenny. As a poster alluded to above, we have been closer to Kilkenny the last few years than Tipp.

There's not too many negatives about Waterford these days as McGrath is doing a great job. My only worry is that we won't have a plan if we ship a couple of goals in a game. How do we react to that? Tipp will always get plenty of scores against us in championship when the weather is better. I almost want this to happen in the next couple of league games just to see how we react. On the sideline as much as on the pitch.

redlead

STIG83 wrote: »

2008 Al semi the last time?
Did we play them in 2010 to win the Munster title?
Wouldn't say it's been years, not beating KK in championship is def for years!!

Last time we beat them was the 08 semi. We've played them a rake load of times since and had a few bad beatings. That's 8 years ago now. I think we have a 50/50 chance this year. The thing about that Tipp team is they'll always give you a chance to come back at them. Nowhere near as ruthless as Kilkenny.

HatchetMan7

Anyone have the actual starting 15

PTH2009

Not playing great today. Tdb very rusty as expected. 12-11 dub now Tipp game took it out of us

mickmackmcgoo

That's what you call a reality check of where we are at.
14 points scored is abysmal at this level. We were grand in a slog the last 3 matches but faster conditions today we weren't ready for. Dublin are a very good side and played very clever fast hurling and the game was over at half time in reality once Dublin had the wind. McGrath needs to react quicker to different tactics. Dublin had an extra man in all areas of the field. Liam Rushe and Eamon Dillon are fantastic hurlers .
Tadgh clearly needed the match and he wasn't sharp in the first half but grew into it. Full Back line done well in general. They need to decide where they want Gleeson playing as moving him up and down doesn't suit.
Kevin Moran has regressed big time I wonder has age caught up. Dunford all pace and little quality. Tom Devine has all the physical stuff but cannot read a ball coming into him from high up. Lack of options off the bench too. Fair play to Dublin and Cunningham they out thought and out played us big time today and I wouldn't like us to meet them again in a hurry

redlead

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

That's what you call a reality check of where we are at.
14 points scored is abysmal at this level. We were grand in a slog the last 3 matches but faster conditions today we weren't ready for. Dublin are a very good side and played very clever fast hurling and the game was over at half time in reality once Dublin had the wind. McGrath needs to react quicker to different tactics. Dublin had an extra man in all areas of the field. Liam Rushe and Eamon Dillon are fantastic hurlers .
Tadgh clearly needed the match and he wasn't sharp in the first half but grew into it. Full Back line done well in general. They need to decide where they want Gleeson playing as moving him up and down doesn't suit.
Kevin Moran has regressed big time I wonder has age caught up. Dunford all pace and little quality. Tom Devine has all the physical stuff but cannot read a ball coming into him from high up. Lack of options off the bench too. Fair play to Dublin and Cunningham they out thought and out played us big time today and I wouldn't like us to meet them again in a hurry

Ah it was just one of those days I suppose. Dublin were way hungrier and had more to play for I guess. I wouldn't read too much into it from a Waterford point of view.

Dublin seemed to beat us at our own game. Some lovely short link up play they are well able to take their scores. Dillon had a great game.

Moran had a dire game for us and De Burca was very rusty but you'd expect that. You'd feel sorry for Devine. He had two lads on him at all time and it's very hard get any currency out of that. Maurice actually does exceptionally well for us when in that position which isn't easy. McGrath is very slow to make changes when things aren't working for us. He definitely needs to learn when it's best to change things.

KevIRL

Poor day at the office, but no harm to dampen expectations, hype and remove this unbeaten run in a game of no consequence.

Well done to Dublin, far the better team on the day.

mickmackmcgoo

redlead wrote:

Ah it was just one of those days I suppose. Dublin were way hungrier and had more to play for I guess. I wouldn't read too much into it from a Waterford point of view.

I wouldn't doubt our lads hunger today I just thought Dublin played at championship level and we were miles off them. Bennet and Curran struggled to get anything out of their markers but will have better days . Next week will be interesting as Galway need to win

cul beag

God that was poor stuff today. So many off the pace it's probably an injustice to name names. An injustice too to Dublin who were by far the better side. Agree about the slowness on the line to make changes and I have said it on here before,our bench isn't strong enough either. Its a loss,no more or no less and I think we'll see a far better performance against Galway next Sunday.

KevIRL

cul beag wrote: »

Is Maurice back in the squad? He walked off it 2 weeks ago.

He looked to be very much 'back' today anyway.

KevIRL

Footballers lost 1-16 to 0-6 up in antrim today. Travelling up there to get a beating and then back down before working tomorrow must really test the resolve of any players.

PTH2009

Worst performance since Wexford (2014). Off the pace, disinterested and stupid wides. If we play like that next Sunday then its a third place finish and a trip to Limerick or clare for the qfs.

Galway will be fighting for survival next week and are due a win down here.

Don't want to end our league on 3 defeats going into the clare match in june

cul beag

KevIRL wrote: »

He looked to be very much 'back' today anyway.

The fact is he did walk off it but fortunately is back again. We need all that type of player as again we don't have the strength in dept. You must have been bursting to get to answer that previous post!

robopaddy2

Are we definetly in the quarters/safe from relegation? If we lose to Galway, and Tipp beat Cork then thats 3 of us on 6 points. Whod go into the relegation playoff?

redlead

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Are we definetly in the quarters/safe from relegation? If we lose to Galway, and Tipp beat Cork then thats 3 of us on 6 points. Whod go into the relegation playoff?

The most Galway or Tipp can finish on is 5 points. Top three is decided already, it's only the order that can change.

PTH2009

redlead wrote: »

The most Galway or Tipp can finish on is 5 points. Top three is decided already, it's only the order that can change.

We beat galway and Kilkenny/dublin draw we top the group on 8 pts

We lose and we finish third. If we lose and Dublin win then it will come down to pts difference between ourselves and Kilkenny (same goes if Dublin lose) for 2nd place and a qf vs Offaly. Top team faces wexford while 3rd/4th faces either limerick/clare

Speak Now

PTH2009 wrote: »

We beat galway and Kilkenny/dublin draw we top the group on 8 pts

We lose and we finish third. If we lose and Dublin win then it will come down to pts difference between ourselves and Kilkenny (same goes if Dublin lose) for 2nd place and a qf vs Offaly. Top team faces wexford while 3rd/4th faces either limerick/clare

You'd have Kilkenny on the head to head.

PTH2009

Speak Now wrote: »

You'd have Kilkenny on the head to head.

Does not go by head to head AFAIK.

cul beag

PTH2009 wrote: »

Does not go by head to head AFAIK.

It would id imagine if both sides have the same scoring averages.

Speak Now

PTH2009 wrote: »

Does not go by head to head AFAIK.

Did they drop it this year?